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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2009, 02:30:27 PM »
The reason you can't go all the way and standardize clubs is because of the differences in sizes, shapes and swings of different players.

Exactly the same reason you can't for balls either.  Different swings have different ball characteristics that benefit them. 

The treehouse is always harping on Tour players because shot making is supposedly dead.  Introduce a one ball rule and you'll find even less shotmaking.  Players will have to adapt to a new ball which will infinitely limit their shotmaking options. 

LOL,

Good sarcasm.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2009, 02:47:20 PM »
In a recent interview, Tom Weiskopf suggests a rollback of the ball (which we don't need to rehash). He also suggests that all players in a given tournament use the SAME ball.

I'm not sure I understand the objections to Weiskopf's last proposal. I can't think of another sport that involves a ball where all players don't use the same ball. They all adjust their individual games to maximize the ball adopted by a given competition.

For example, there are a number of different tennis balls on the market. But in a given competition, only one brand is used.

Why should golf tournaments be different? Don't we want to maximize - as is done in other sports - an apples to apples contest of playing skills? Isn't that the point of taking pains that the course set-up plays the same way for all players each day?

Bob

   
Different players have different wishes according to spin rate, short game feel, etc.

The balls should go the same overall distance but different characteristics should be allowed.

I think one ball would hurt the weaker player, unless the ball was lower spin.

.

TEPaul

Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2009, 03:03:45 PM »
"TEP,
We're talking about ideal worlds here. You know ones in which everyone plays the same ball, etc. Therefore, my proposal was slanted towards an ideal world."


Garland:

Is that what we're talking about here? Don't you think it might be a bit more productive to talk here not about some ideal world but about the real world?   ;)

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2009, 03:06:44 PM »
Comparing golf to all other sports isn't really a reasonable comparison as only a few could even present the option of playing with different balls.

Most sports are team sports or at least "head to head" individual sports, where multiple players touch or interact with the same ball.  Players couldn't have their individual basketballs because only one can be on the court at a time.  Both players hit the same tennis ball, so of course it has to be the same.

The only two major sports that come to mind, after 10 seconds of thought, where individuals play their own ball are bowling and golf.  In both, players are feel to choose the specifications of their own ball as long as they are acceptable by the governing bodies.

Tighten the specs, but don't eliminate the choices.  If one were truly superior, all would gravitate to it anyway (unless sponsor $$ outweighed tournament $$ in which case some players may make their choice for different reasons - as the case may be today.)
  

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2009, 03:14:33 PM »
The reason you can't go all the way and standardize clubs is because of the differences in sizes, shapes and swings of different players.

Exactly the same reason you can't for balls either.  Different swings have different ball characteristics that benefit them. 

The treehouse is always harping on Tour players because shot making is supposedly dead.  Introduce a one ball rule and you'll find even less shotmaking.  Players will have to adapt to a new ball which will infinitely limit their shotmaking options. 

LOL,

Good sarcasm.


So I'm assuming you buy the absolute cheapest balls you can find.  If you don't, then you too play a ball based on the characteristics YOU want. 

TEPaul

Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2009, 03:32:08 PM »
“The treehouse is always harping on Tour players.”


Clint:

No shit. Look at this one from earlier today.


“Why would anyone care whether the pros are all happy with the ball. If they want to be happy with the ball then they can all go join a club and play matches with the other members. The pros are entertainers. They earn their money by entertaining the fans. It is the fans that are supposed to be happy. And, it is quite obvious that many of the pros have forgotten that, especially the world #1.”


Apparently the person who wrote that is not aware tour pros do not work for anyone but themselves and that's precisely why they are both called and are technically and legally classified as "independent contractors."  ;)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2009, 03:53:01 PM »
...
Apparently the person who wrote that is not aware tour pros do not work for anyone but themselves and that's precisely why they are both called and are technically and legally classified as "independent contractors."  ;)

tom, when is the last time an independent contractor built a house for you or anyone for free?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2009, 03:58:12 PM »
Implied in the entire discussion is that different players would meet with success if only they used the same ball as everyone else.

I contend that we'd see the same names on the leaderboard week after week.  If so, there's no point.

Other: Players already use the "same" ball, if being within the rules is considered a standardization technique (as it is)

WW

TEPaul

Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2009, 03:59:37 PM »
"tom, when is the last time an independent contractor built a house for you or anyone for free?"

Garland:

Can we expect a "real world" point at any time in our future to that remark?  ;)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2009, 04:01:24 PM »
The reason you can't go all the way and standardize clubs is because of the differences in sizes, shapes and swings of different players.

Exactly the same reason you can't for balls either.  Different swings have different ball characteristics that benefit them. 

The treehouse is always harping on Tour players because shot making is supposedly dead.  Introduce a one ball rule and you'll find even less shotmaking.  Players will have to adapt to a new ball which will infinitely limit their shotmaking options. 

LOL,

Good sarcasm.


So I'm assuming you buy the absolute cheapest balls you can find.  If you don't, then you too play a ball based on the characteristics YOU want. 

Last bunch of balls I bought were closeouts through amazon.com. $0.67 each! :)

I will admit grandma's swing can use a different ball than the tour player.

As far as the pros working the ball. The call has always been to go back to a ball before the Strata induced era. That was a very workable ball! So your sarcasm about them not being able to work the ball was funny.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2009, 04:03:55 PM »
"tom, when is the last time an independent contractor built a house for you or anyone for free?"

Garland:

Can we expect a "real world" point at any time in our future to that remark?  ;)


Tom you implicated that the pros don't work for the fans, because the are independent contractors. I was simply pointing out that independent contractors work for people like you and me when they build houses for us.

Therefore, IMHO negating your argument.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2009, 04:05:17 PM »
Implied in the entire discussion is that different players would meet with success if only they used the same ball as everyone else.

I contend that we'd see the same names on the leaderboard week after week.  If so, there's no point.

Other: Players already use the "same" ball, if being within the rules is considered a standardization technique (as it is)

WW

GOOD POST WW
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2009, 12:19:14 AM »
Implied in the entire discussion is that different players would meet with success if only they used the same ball as everyone else.

I contend that we'd see the same names on the leaderboard week after week.  If so, there's no point.

Other: Players already use the "same" ball, if being within the rules is considered a standardization technique (as it is)

WW
I don't get this at all.  No, the point is NOT to generate differnt names on a leaderboard.  I don't care which names are on a leaderboard.  I don't even care if the long-hitters, as a group, win or lose, or what the "short" hitters do as a group.  All I care about is that the field, as a group, doesn't have the kind of distance that forces continual distance-combatting changes to classic golf courses.  THAT is "the point."

TEPaul

Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2009, 12:53:16 AM »
"Tom you implicated that the pros don't work for the fans, because the are independent contractors. I was simply pointing out that independent contractors work for people like you and me when they build houses for us."


Garland:

What I said is that tour pro golfers are independant contractors who work for themselves and do not have a contract with anyone except perhaps someone who sponsors them on tour or some entity for which they endorse some product.

You mentioned an independent contractor who works as a building contractor for someone. I've used them and we've had a contract. What does that have to do with tour pro golfers and fans?

In a short phrase it has nothing directly to do with it. You said above that tour pro golfers essentially work for golf fans and have some contract to entertain them. That is bullshit, and it's both arrogant and a completely untrue notion.

I'd also like to ask you what your particular problem is with the world's #1 golfer? I assume you're talking about Tiger Woods. For starters, that guy is probably the most recognizable and respected athlete in the world but Garland Bayley has a problem with him not being responsible enough to golf fans or to you somehow? Oh well, boo-hoo and who is really being arrogant now, Tiger Woods or you?

Do not expect Tiger Woods to have the same responsibility to you or any other golf fan that some independent building contractor you might contract with to build a house for you has to you . He definitely doesn't! ;)

Tour pro golfers have no contract with a fan or fans unless they sponsor him. How any tour pro golfer chooses to entertain golf fans is completely up to the individual tour pro golfer and nothing more.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 12:55:59 AM by TEPaul »

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2009, 01:09:17 AM »
This is really funny.

In other sports - manufacturers pay massive amounts of cash for "exclusive" league deals but on the PGA it would probably have to be by a tournament by tournament basis which is unrealistic because a skilled professional needs to know how their ammo will perform.

Like the English Premiership, the PGA should license out the "official golf ball" and make all players comply.

It'll mess up sponsorships, revenues and all that good stuff - but apparently the lads all want pro v1s anyways . . .

TEPaul

Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2009, 01:25:31 AM »
"Like the English Premiership, the PGA should license out the "official golf ball" and make all players comply."

Rob:

How in the world do you think that could happen, as the PGA of America is not even the same organization as the PGA Tour, and the PGA of America has nothing to do with I&B Rules and Regulations or testing or conformance, and it never has? Only the R&A and the USGA do in golf, and that's the way it's always been.

And what exactly is the English premiership?  ;)

I think the time has probably come to start a thread on here asking if golf fans are generally the stupidest fans about their sport in the entire world of sports. What do you think about that?   ??? ;)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 01:36:40 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2009, 01:32:25 AM »
BobC:

Personally, I think there is a ton of interesting historical information on how golf's administrations over the years have looked at the whole idea of I&B, its regulation, standardization of same or lack of it, and what those traditions and interpretations might mean to the subject of your thread. Your point and question sure got diverted early on and I feel partly responsible for that.

Would you care to have some info supplied on the interesting ways golf and its administrators used to look at your initial point and post and how those traditions might have evolved things to the point we're at now?

I know I think that's necessary to have a good comprehensive discussion of your thread's point.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2009, 04:32:05 AM »
I'd be totally in favor of this, not just on tour but as a rule of the game for all golfers.  One exact spec for the ball, which anyone could produce but had to be identical in any way measureable, so golf balls are a commodity like penny nails.  Totally unrealistic now due to all the ball revenue, but if this had been made a rule once balls started to be mass produced everyone would take it for granted by now and think it absolutely ridiculous if anyone suggested allowing balls with varying characteristics to be chosen by players.

If it were practical I'd extend this to clubs as well - but again, it couldn't have happened until mass production, so at least not until the 30s with the advent of steel shafts, and wouldn't perhaps reach the goal of perfectly identical until after the late 70s with metal woods (after a very long fight of whether to change the standard driver to metal)  But the major issue with clubs would be stuff like length, you'd handicap either short golfers or tall golfers.  More likely both, with the average height guys benefitting!

I'd prefer to see golfers succeed purely due to their own skills, and not because of differences in equipment.  If I was required to play a 1970s rock flite, I'd do just fine.  It would hurt me on certain shots where having more spin would be beneficial, but everyone would be in the exact same boat, and those who have greater skill and can find shots that deal with that disadvantage better than I would be rewarded relative to me.  What could possibly be more fair than that?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jason McNamara

Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2009, 06:18:31 AM »
Doug, wouldn't this be like every tennis player using a standard-weight (and length) tennis racquet, and requiring all racquets be strung to the exact same tension?  I'd also note that both baseball and cricket bats allow for a small range of personal preference.

Would you mandate one official grip size for golfers?

(Obviously the analogy doesn't apply equally well to golf balls, since it's not the case that your opponent can -for example- intentionally shine your golf ball on one side between holes.)  :-)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2009, 08:03:41 AM »
BobC:

Personally, I think there is a ton of interesting historical information on how golf's administrations over the years have looked at the whole idea of I&B, its regulation, standardization of same or lack of it, and what those traditions and interpretations might mean to the subject of your thread. Your point and question sure got diverted early on and I feel partly responsible for that.

Would you care to have some info supplied on the interesting ways golf and its administrators used to look at your initial point and post and how those traditions might have evolved things to the point we're at now?

I know I think that's necessary to have a good comprehensive discussion of your thread's point.

I would love to have more information about how the unique idea evolved in golf that everyone can play the ball of his choice.

As we have discussed in the past, these sorts of rules (or absence of rules) didn't evolve by accident. They evolved out of some pretty specific conceptions of what golf was supposed to be. I'm talking big metaphysical questions here. Between 1900 and about 1920 there were wide ranging of debates about profound rules issues. Profound in the sense that the rules are in important respects constitutive of what the game of golf IS. 

Many rules were developed amidst a great deal of debate and acrimony. People tended to line up on one side or another based on their vision of what golf, at base, was supposed to be. They saw the very nature of golf itself at issue. And most were quite conscious of the stakes.

John Low, Harry Colt, Stuart Paton, ACM Croome and other members of the R&A rules committee during those years are all prime examples. What golf is, is in major part a function of the rules by which you play the game. You change the rules, you change the nature of the game. Those guys knew they were messing with big issues.

And in the midst of all that turmoil, there was a surprise guest appearance by - yes, you guessed it -  our own Max Behr. He weighed into that debate from his perch at Golf Illustrated in NYC. The first time he rolled out his sports - game distinction was to make a specific point in a heated debate about how to deal with lost balls in match play. (Behr, the purist, thought that if you lost your ball you automatically lost the hole. Those of the "equitable" school prevailed, however, and thus our current rule. It's just a two stoke penalty.)

The history of those rule kerfuffles has been written. Albeit in a half-assed way. What has not been written is the ways in which the same issues raised in those debates fed directly into debates about architecture that were going on at the same time. That, my friend, is a fascinating chapter yet to be written. Rules issues and golf architecture issues are - at fundamental levels - joined at the hip. 

Bob   
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 08:06:14 AM by BCrosby »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2009, 09:32:49 AM »
TEP,

The PGA tour pros may not have a contract with the fans, but I have withdrawn financial support from them, and if all fans did as I have done, they would be pretty destitute independent contractors.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2009, 09:58:04 AM »
How about letting the pro's play with whatever ball they want but restricting them to one ball per round, subject of course to letting them replace any damaged balls but not lost ones. This may induce more thoughtful play rather than the bomber mentality of hit it as far as possible.

Just a thought.

Niall

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2009, 10:31:22 AM »
BCrosby,

I like Tom's suggestion, but with an added twist.  Borrowing from the "Iron Chef", just prior to Thursday's first tee time, the tournament sponsor would unveil the "secret ingredient", say a ball made to the early 1970s Maxfli-Red specifications, and changed each week.  Players teeing off later during the day would be prohibited from practicing with the designated ball prior to their round, but the balls would be available at the range for post round practice and the remainder of the tournament.  So the selection process is not gamed or corrupted, the ball type would be selected randomly. 

I love Iron Chef!  I was glued to it the instant I first saw it.  Totally riveting.

As a non-chef, my only beef with that show is that the ingredients are too esoteric for me.  I'd like to see them dumb down the secret ingredient every once in a while...for example, I'd love to see what Bobby Flay and that Italian guy would do with a secret ingredient like hot dogs or Campbell's Chunky Sirloin Burger Soup or Fruit Loops or Kraft Mac & Cheese.  Stuff a dad can use when the wife's gone and the kids are hungry.  I'd be taking copius notes on that.   

(My wife actually makes a hot dog omlette that's out of this world.  I'm sure there are other creative things that can be done with everyday kitchen items, and not just Japanese deep sea blowfish or venison....)

David,

This show is indeed good.  I did see them do a show where chicken was the secret ingredient once, so I'm sure you could manage that one. But that's the only everyday man secret ingredient I've ever seen them use.

Niall,

It sucks enough that half the field won't make a penny for every tournament.  Now you want to implement a rule where they could make a bad swing on the 1st hole, hit it OB, and they are done for the week?  Ouch, your brutal.   ;)

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2009, 10:54:15 AM »
Tiger would win every tournament.

TEPaul

Re: Everyone plays the same ball
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2009, 11:00:24 AM »
"TEP,
The PGA tour pros may not have a contract with the fans, but I have withdrawn financial support from them, and if all fans did as I have done, they would be pretty destitute independent contractors."



Garland:

Well, of course that is your good right as a fan and I respect that; I just don't agree with you on your seemingly harsh take on them and what they are out there to do is to merely entertain you and the rest of the fans, and that certainly includes the world's #1, Tiger Woods.

I certainly understand that some fans think those guys are way overpaid, spoilt and perhaps self-centered or arrogant; I've heard that from more than just you, but come on, for a fan like you or me to suppose those players are out there merely to entertain us, well, that just seems you or others that think that are being a whole lot more self-centered and arrogant than they are!  ;)

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