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Dan Herrmann

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Good definition of Redan?
« on: March 27, 2009, 07:17:49 AM »
Wikipedia has the following definition of a redan as it applies to GCA:

A redan hole or redan is an aspect of golf course architecture commonly associated with golf architect Charles B. Macdonald. The term alludes to the "redan" type of fortification. Specifically, a redan hole should have a green where the front angle is a "V" shape and which slopes downward and away from the point of the "V", and consequently from the golfer playing to the green from the tee or fairway.

Most if not all redan holes are flanked by a pair of deep bunkers, deep enough to be obscured from the green, and slope either to the left or the right. The original "redan" is the 15th hole on the West Links in North Berwick, a fearsome 192-yard par 3 which requires an accurate tee shot to an elevated, sloping green invisible from the tee. Golf architects around the world have created holes based on this signature challenge of the famous Scottish course.


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Do you think the definition is correct? 

PCCraig

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Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 08:19:59 AM »
Maybe this is as good of a place to post this as any; how do you pronounce Redan?

Is it said such as "RAY-den" or "Ro-DAN"

I always thought it was one way, but someone else told me it was the other way around.
H.P.S.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 08:24:59 AM »
"Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally, and you have a Redan." - Charles Blair Macdonald
jeffmingay.com

Rich Goodale

Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 08:26:18 AM »
Pat

It's "ruh-DAN."

Rodan is Godzilla's mortal enemy.  Rayden is another name for a tanning salon......

Rich

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 08:34:15 AM »
Pat

It's "ruh-DAN."

Rodan is Godzilla's mortal enemy.  Rayden is another name for a tanning salon......

Rich

I suppose "Rayden" is an effect thanks to a Chicago accent.

Thanks for clarifying!
H.P.S.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2009, 09:54:06 AM »
Pat

It's "ruh-DAN."



Really?

Any time I've heard it, it has been "ray-dan" which fits neither your pronunciation nor either of Pat's ones....

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 09:58:20 AM »
This is the evil Rodan:

Rich Goodale

Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 10:04:45 AM »
Pat

It's "ruh-DAN."



Really?

Any time I've heard it, it has been "ray-dan" which fits neither your pronunciation nor either of Pat's ones....

Yes, really, Ally.  It's a French word.  You Brits almost always mispronounce any two-syllable French word (regardez, SHAT-oh v. shaa-TOH, CHEER-ack v. shee-RAQUE, GAARR-adje v. gaah-RAHJ).

You have heard wrong my friend! ;)

Rich

Andy Levett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 10:05:12 AM »
Wikipedia has the following definition of a redan as it applies to GCA:

A redan hole or redan is an aspect of golf course architecture commonly associated with golf architect Charles B. Macdonald. The term alludes to the "redan" type of fortification. Specifically, a redan hole should have a green where the front angle is a "V" shape and which slopes downward and away from the point of the "V", and consequently from the golfer playing to the green from the tee or fairway.

Most if not all redan holes are flanked by a pair of deep bunkers, deep enough to be obscured from the green, and slope either to the left or the right. The original "redan" is the 15th hole on the West Links in North Berwick, a fearsome 192-yard par 3 which requires an accurate tee shot to an elevated, sloping green invisible from the tee. Golf architects around the world have created holes based on this signature challenge of the famous Scottish course.


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Do you think the definition is correct? 


The definition of a redan fortification is correct but the way the author applies it to CBM's Redan golf holes seems a bit of a stretch. I wonder if the original at North Berwick actually got its name from the first hill, visible and just over half-way from the tee, as the left side of that is distinctly redan-shaped.

The irony, of course, is that this landform, which makes the tee-shot blind, was dropped from CBM's copies, as what he especially admired about the NB hole was the narrow tableland, tilted a little from right to left, with a deep bunker on the front side, approached diagonally.
So all the American Redans, though they may be better golf holes than the North Berwick original, don't have a 'redan'.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 10:05:56 AM »
I've always heard it pronounced more like:

"reh-dan"

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2009, 10:07:32 AM »
How about the proper way to say Biarritz? I always thought it was buh-ritz rather than bee-a-ritz.

mike_malone

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Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2009, 10:09:14 AM »
 I think it is a bad definition because the hole precedes Macdonald and would continue to be an awesome hole if Macdonald never lived. I thought that the back of the green was equally as important to the playability as the front. That I could go long made the hole fun.
AKA Mayday

Tim Bert

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Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2009, 10:10:38 AM »
Down here in the south Bogey always told me it was

REE-dah-yun

C. Sturges

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Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2009, 10:13:19 AM »
Great point Andy.  I had played many copies and did not know it was a blind shot untill playing the original.  I really like the blind shot more!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2009, 10:13:38 AM »
I think the uphill nature (at least to the front of the green - which is the crest of the hole) has been left out.  Its a very important element in a Redan because it encourages the options of either aerial or ground approach.  So far as I can tell, many of the Stateside Redans eliminate this feature.  While not necessarily important to the design of a Redan now, the hole was originally considered quite long.  As such, anybody able to drive past the green on a proper line had his length rewarded with a relatively simple chip back to the green.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Bill_McBride

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Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2009, 10:17:36 AM »
The coolest thing about the North Berwick Redan (ruh-dan) is how many different ways you can play it.  One time we played from about 160 yards.  My wife threaded a spoon between the front bunkers and onto the putting surface about 15' away.  I hit a 6 iron onto the very front and it trickled down to about 15'.  The other guy hit a 7 wood over the green and chipped up for par.  The other lady unfortunately hit it down into the Redan bunker and was in there for a while!  ;D

BCrosby

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Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2009, 11:22:22 AM »
Tim -

You are right about the southern pronunciation. "Redan" has three syllables. But down here even a word like "grits' has two syllables. So go figure.

Bob

Tim Nugent

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Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2009, 07:13:48 PM »
Andy, good of you to post an illustration of the original configuration.  I was lucky enough to have a caddie so me where the old tee was.  It's quite lower than the present in elevation - over by #4 green. 

So, should it be "Restored"?
Coasting is a downhill process

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2009, 10:05:07 PM »
What are some good example of redans built in the last 20 years?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Good definition of Redan?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2009, 10:11:50 PM »
Dan,

Off the top of my head, Clyde Johnston did one at Glen Dornoch, Stephen Kay did one at Blue Heron Pines, Arthur Hills/Steven Forres did one at Maryland National, Tom Doak did one at High Pointe, Jeff Brauer did one at Wild Wing Avocet, Gil Hanse did one at Inniscrone, and I'm quite sure there are more...