News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« on: March 23, 2009, 10:37:56 AM »
Has anyone any good examples (photographic preferably) of a golf course that is let down by inconsistent bunker styles?

Usually by a different architect coming in but maybe from the same architect experimenting within the 18 holes...

Conversely, what courses have different styles throughout the 18 holes where it just seems to work?

Thanks

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2009, 10:41:45 AM »
Bandon Dunes, but it's more a case of 1 hole taking on 17.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2009, 12:39:59 PM »
Ally -

Take a look at the current thread on the new Castle Stuart course and take a tour of the course at http://castlestuartgolf.com/course.html
 
You will see a variety of bunkers - sod wall, blowouts, chunked, etc.

Personally, I don't buy into the notion that all 18 holes on a golf course have to have a certain sameness.

DT 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:42:01 PM by David_Tepper »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2009, 12:55:45 PM »
Let down? no, but Arcadia Bluffs has sodwall and blowouts...

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2009, 12:57:24 PM »
Ally -

Take a look at the current thread on the new Castle Stuart course and take a tour of the course at http://castlestuartgolf.com/course.html
 
You will see a variety of bunkers - sod wall, blowouts, chunked, etc.

Personally, I don't buy into the notion that all 18 holes on a golf course have to have a certain sameness.

DT 

I agree David... But there are good examples and very bad examples...

Links courses tend to merit a couple of different styles a little easier than many inland layouts...

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2009, 01:02:49 PM »


I copied this from a thread last year though I have no clue as to the course. 

Do believe it was in Canada.

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2009, 01:06:47 PM »
I can think of two in NorCal.

Olympic - Ocean.  Bunker design/strategy is just one of the inconsistencies throughout this course which I think precludes it from shining.

Richmond CC - When I played it last, about 3 years ago, there were some holes which had been either renovated or restored and those bunkers on these holes had a different look and feel than the traps on the other holes.  If/when the other holes are done in this manner, I think Richmond would really benefit from a unified look.


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2009, 01:12:43 PM »
That would be Eagles Nest, north of Toronto.



I copied this from a thread last year though I have no clue as to the course. 

Do believe it was in Canada.


Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2009, 07:11:21 PM »
On our recent trip to South Africa, I thought that Fancourt Links suffered from its conflicting bunker styles...stacked face/pot bunkers and flat uninteresting ones...here is a picture ...check out the bunkers on the right...do they blend with the others?  This contrast occurs throughout the course and in my opinion, detracts from the whole.



Bart

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2009, 07:24:18 PM »
I think the bunkering at New Zealand suffers for being different. I would also say the ugly bunkers are nearly all useless bunkers.  You can't see it well, but the bunker up on the right is a poor thing.


I would say the same thing at Beau Desert.  The bunkering is by no means beautiful, but the original bunkers are well placed and fit into the scheme of the course.  Many of the new bunkers are wishy washy shallow shells.

Here is a trench cross bunker.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 05:05:15 AM »
That's interesting Sean...

I thought that the bunkers at New Zealand were mainly all untouched Simpson ones... I've yet to see the course in person but from your pictures and the Google Earth overhead, I'm really keen to get there to see the bunkering in particular...

Bart, I agree that you have shown a really good example of conflicting styles that don't work on the same hole...

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2009, 05:42:25 AM »
Here's a question, would you call The Addington an example of two different bunker styles, or is it just that the maintenance around them changed the aesthetics?

The difference I noticed was 1, 3, 10, 11, 18 (cleaner look) v 6, 7, 9, 13, 17 (more rugged)

Pics here: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38796.0.html and here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/addington1.html

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2009, 06:43:17 AM »
That's interesting Sean...

I thought that the bunkers at New Zealand were mainly all untouched Simpson ones... I've yet to see the course in person but from your pictures and the Google Earth overhead, I'm really keen to get there to see the bunkering in particular...

Bart, I agree that you have shown a really good example of conflicting styles that don't work on the same hole...

Ally

There are a few areas where the bunkering is new and it shows.  Behind #8 green is new bunker and its a poor thing.  I am not sure why the club hasn't tried to integrate the new bunkers better with the old.  They seem to be restoring some Simpson bunkers properly so I don't know what the story is.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2009, 08:11:49 AM »
Eric Smith:

I would love to see a preconstruction contour map of that course you posted on Reply #5 just to compare it to what's there now.

I also wish I knew how to post photos so I could show this site the scores of photos I took of the fascinating land along both sides of old A1A on Talbot Island just below Amelia Island and just north of the naval base in Jacksonville Florida. Those photos show all the interesting shapes, sizes and formations of natural bunker and blowout formations complete with their interesting natural vegetated lines and such. Then someone could photoshop some fairways and green sites through them. It would be beautiful.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 08:19:37 AM by TEPaul »

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2009, 09:26:38 AM »
Pre-renovation, Sunningdale had 2 styles (Park and Colt I believe) that was rather disconcerning (to me).  It was a major influence on my personal design philosphy.  It highlighted that bunkers are the primary feature that unifies the golf holes while at the same time allow for all the holes to have a degree of individuality.  Much like 18 brothers and sisters from the same parents.  Having 2 different styles like the Eagle Nest photos depicts, is a bit unsettling.  I can surmize they had the philosophy to have the turf grass side of buners be mowed and the outside rough edges be natural. 

Also, using that photo as reference, the bunker style should be in harmony with the rest of the site.  Smooth, manicured bunkers on an otherwise rugged site doesn't create this harmony.  Vice versa also holds true.

As to the before topo vs the after - come on - use your imagination.  Stating the obivous, it's an exercise in earthmoving on a grand scale.  Totally artificial, so what?  The real question is, "does it work?"  Does it make you feel as if it's always been there or is the hand of man too apparent?
Coasting is a downhill process

TEPaul

Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2009, 09:48:10 AM »
"As to the before topo vs the after - come on - use your imagination.  Stating the obivous, it's an exercise in earthmoving on a grand scale.  Totally artificial, so what?  The real question is, "does it work?"  Does it make you feel as if it's always been there or is the hand of man too apparent?"


Tim:

Totally artificial, so what?

What do you feel about that? Does that totally artificial "earth-moved" look of the entire site bother you aesthetically or otherwise? I ask even completely understanding you when you say if it works it works. But what is meant by, if it works, it works? Does that mean just for golf and golf shots or aesthetically too?

And if you admit the over-all "shaped/earth-moved" site looks totally aesthetically artificial to you then why draw the line with the look of artificial bunkers being juxtaposed to more natural looking bunkers?
 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 10:37:44 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2009, 10:04:38 AM »
Doesn't ANGC win this hands down? A milkshake of MacK, Maxwell, RTJ, Nicklaus, Fazio bunker styles.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2009, 10:24:54 AM »
Tom Paul,  good ?'s (although responding to a ? w/a ? is a bit lawerish  :))

To the first, I would say more from an aesthic point of view as it seems most of the brasch landforms are aside the holes and hence, not really in play.

It's hard to tell from a photo, to me I have to be standing within the landforms to gain the proper perspective.

2 examples.  Whistling Straights and Kingsbarn.  With both courses, I could tell from the adjacent land that the landforms were manmade before setting foot on the property.  However, once on the course, the, shall we say Terra-forming, was done in such a way that it made you believe (or escape) that reality.  To achieve this, both courses had a degree of randomness to the earthforms - not necessarily flowing but rather abrupt in places.  I think Gil's work at the Castle Course takes this one step further and carries it into the playing areas.

Fazio's work at Victoria National does the same but you believe those fairway contours and gulches were remnants of the mining operations.

I think it doesn't work where the perimeter is too rugged and the playing areas too tame.  That just doesn't happen in nature.  See Sand Hills.  What you expect is the fairways to be a tamed down versiion of the perimeter but still relect the same character.  Perhaps thats why the old links courses are so revered.  The equipment didn't exist to tame the site.  The quirks were left alone and make the course more coherent in the process (Foxy #14 at Dornach or the ravine holes at Shore Acres).  So I think I draw the line at the edge of the fairway.  Presurposing that the fairway reflects the characture of the perimeter,  a more rugged perimeter lends itself to naturalistic bunkers while a more tame "parklike" perimeter likewise lends itself to more manicured bunker.

Now, how do YOU feel about it?

BCrosby, as I have stated before pertaining to ANGC - just make them all MacK CPGC style and I'd be estatic.
Coasting is a downhill process

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2009, 10:30:59 AM »
Forest Dunes:  some have the real maintained look, while others haev the scraggly/blowout look
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

TEPaul

Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2009, 10:43:51 AM »
"Tom Paul,  good ?'s (although responding to a ? w/a ? is a bit lawerish  )"


Tim:

That was only my first response on the subject; certainly not my last response on it. I'm totally fascinated by this kind of subject and I certainly have my own pretty strong opinions on it, even though, I should add, opinions that have certainly been changing over time from what they once were. I will explain later what they once were, what they are now, and maybe even where they might end up someday.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2009, 10:48:58 AM »
It seems justifiable to have interior bunkers with cleaner lines than perimeter. I've seen The C&C boys do it. The reason I see it as justifiable is related to functionality through playability.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2009, 10:53:24 AM »
TEP - when?

Adam - so Form follows Function and aesthics be damned
Coasting is a downhill process

TEPaul

Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2009, 11:03:53 AM »
"TEP - when?"


When The "Spirit" arrives. I think he's around here somewhere today. I can't write anything on that subject until The "Spirit" arrives and moves me.


Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2009, 11:08:12 AM »
Eric Smith:

I would love to see a preconstruction contour map of that course you posted on Reply #5 just to compare it to what's there now.


Tom,

That course, Eagle's Nest is a Doug Carrick design.  Maybe ask Ian Andrew about the site pre-construction.  He may still have been with Carrick Design when it was in planning.


Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with Different Bunker Styles
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2009, 11:14:50 AM »
TP - would that spirit need to be released from it's bottle?
Coasting is a downhill process

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back