Distinctive Course Features at Castle Stuart

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Mark Parsinen recently added presentation of sorts to the Castle Stuart website, which I thought was very interesting, both visually and in its narrative.

http://www.castlestuartgolf.com/distinctive-course-features.html

[Eric Smith]

Inspired.  Complemented beautifully with the track (I believe it is the End Credits) from Braveheart.

[Bill_McBride]

Wow.  The addition of Castle Stuart to the already strong line up of North East Scotland golf will cause even more golfers to concentrate trips on that area.

Dornoch, Nairn, Brora, Golspie, Tain, others already there - add Castle Stuart and you have six or eight really strong links courses within a ninety minute radius. 

[Anthony Gray]

Wow.  The addition of Castle Stuart to the already strong line up of North East Scotland golf will cause even more golfers to concentrate trips on that area.

Dornoch, Nairn, Brora, Golspie, Tain, others already there - add Castle Stuart and you have six or eight really strong links courses within a ninety minute radius. 

  Bill,

  You forgot the best one.

  Anthony

[Mark Chaplin]

Can you play a round at ALL the others for the price of a day at Castle Stuart?

At £150 a round I will not be racing to visit.

[Bill_McBride]

Can you play a round at ALL the others for the price of a day at Castle Stuart?

At £150 a round I will not be racing to visit.

From my dim memories of last summer (too much single malt!), I'm thinking Dornoch was 85 quid, Nairn 75.......others less.  I didn't know Castle Stuart was 150, that's 25 or 30 more than the Old Course and therefore not reasonable!

[Tom Dunne]

Didn't the last thread about Castle Stuart end like this? Are we here to talk about golf architecture or not?

Mark Parsinen, Gil Hanse and their team have been giving food for thought to architecture aficionados pretty much from the beginning, documenting the construction process as well as the philosophy underpinning their vision of the course as a whole. This latest video is jammed with ideas--concepts like "forward links ball release", that seem to be framed more in academic language more than marketing-speak. I find that interesting in and of itself. I mean, how many projects would run a promo video containing a line like "asymmetry with rumple as a bailout issue can be vexing"--it's aimed at architecture lovers all the way.

Castle Stuart has one of the most thoughtfully conceived bunker schemes in recent memory, with revetted, formalized areas and stretches of unkempt open sand applied situationally, but still we're gearing up to talk about the price of the green fee. Yes, it's an expensive ticket--I couldn't afford to play here more than once or twice a decade myself. But is that really the point? Castle Stuart is promising to be a major course, and a major showpiece for the practice of golf course architecture in the new century. There are plenty of overpriced modern courses that are brain-dead, from conception to finished product--my sense is that it's totally unfair to lump Castle Stuart in with them.

 

[TX Golf]

Tom,

You absolutely are correct. It seems to be a special project for a variety of reasons.

However, it doesn't matter how special the thought process was if the economics don't make sense. As bill mentioned, at 20% more expensive than the old course, I'm not so sure of how many people are willing to pay that steep a price. I am sure they have done some market research and didn't just assign these green fees arbitrarily, but it still seems a bit steep. Anyways, that is my two cents and I have no more interest in talking about pricing. Lets get back to the architecture!!!

[TX Golf]

Very very cool video by the way.

I was very impressed with the bunkers that were both blown out and revetted. That is a very cool feature that I'm not so sure I have really seen before.

[Brian_Ewen]

Wow.  The addition of Castle Stuart to the already strong line up of North East Scotland golf will cause even more golfers to concentrate trips on that area.

Dornoch, Nairn, Brora, Golspie, Tain, others already there - add Castle Stuart and you have six or eight really strong links courses within a ninety minute radius. 

Pedantically , none are in the North East .

[Bill_McBride]

Wow.  The addition of Castle Stuart to the already strong line up of North East Scotland golf will cause even more golfers to concentrate trips on that area.

Dornoch, Nairn, Brora, Golspie, Tain, others already there - add Castle Stuart and you have six or eight really strong links courses within a ninety minute radius. 

Pedantically , none are in the North East .

Sorry, Brian, what is that area of Scotland called?  I'm thinking Brora down to Inverness / Nairn.

[Sean_A]

I think this course looks bloody marvelous and I would lump it with Ballyneal, Longshadow and Barnbougle Dunes as the four quite recent courses I would like to see most.  However, money is always important regardless of architectural/engineering/artist values.  This would be a very tough sell to my group.  As it is, some are opting out of trips which include courses cheaper than this new kid on the block.  To be honest, its getting tougher and tougher to convince guys to cross an ocean to play these high priced places.  Additionally, there aren't enough of the very good moderately priced courses in any one area of the GB&I to organize a trip worth crossing an ocean for.  Tom, I hate that this sort of thing often comes back to money, but there is only so much of it going round and folks can only pay so much before they put their hands up.  One of the big divides between punters and and those in the business is that those in the business get to play at a huge discount so they don't really consider cost as important.  But I can tell you, there is a huge percentage of hard core golfers in the UK who never dream of paying £150 to play a game of golf.  Finally, I gotta believe the pool of folks willing to pay this sort of money is shrinking everyday with memberships getting older and smaller.

Ciao   

[ed_getka]

Didn't the last thread about Castle Stuart end like this? Are we here to talk about golf architecture or not?

Mark Parsinen, Gil Hanse and their team have been giving food for thought to architecture aficionados pretty much from the beginning, documenting the construction process as well as the philosophy underpinning their vision of the course as a whole. This latest video is jammed with ideas--concepts like "forward links ball release", that seem to be framed more in academic language more than marketing-speak. I find that interesting in and of itself. I mean, how many projects would run a promo video containing a line like "asymmetry with rumple as a bailout issue can be vexing"--it's aimed at architecture lovers all the way.

Castle Stuart has one of the most thoughtfully conceived bunker schemes in recent memory, with revetted, formalized areas and stretches of unkempt open sand applied situationally, but still we're gearing up to talk about the price of the green fee. Yes, it's an expensive ticket--I couldn't afford to play here more than once or twice a decade myself. But is that really the point? Castle Stuart is promising to be a major course, and a major showpiece for the practice of golf course architecture in the new century. There are plenty of overpriced modern courses that are brain-dead, from conception to finished product--my sense is that it's totally unfair to lump Castle Stuart in with them.

 

Tom,
     We are all more than happy to hear about the architectural detailing and thought that went into the course, but price is a factor. Dornoch at 85 pounds would be any reasonable person's choice over a new course at 150 pounds. Now if Castle Stuart is clearly superior to Dornoch than I will pay the money, otherwise I am going to have to hear a lot of amazing things about CS before I go there over Dornoch.
     I think sometimes some people assume that every golfer wants to see every golf course out there. IMO once I have seen a sampling of some of the greatest golf courses in the world then price does become an issue.
     I did have to wrestle with this issue when I made a trip to New Zealand a couple of years ago. I was thinking about seeing Cape Kidnappers, but knowing later in my trip to Australia I would be playing Barnbougle at half the price I just couldn't bring myself to make a tee time for CK. Ultimately, Ash Towe and Philip Gawith convinced me that I had to see CK and I am glad I did. An amazing golf course. Is it worth the green fee? No.

[Bill_McBride]

Wow.  The addition of Castle Stuart to the already strong line up of North East Scotland golf will cause even more golfers to concentrate trips on that area.

Dornoch, Nairn, Brora, Golspie, Tain, others already there - add Castle Stuart and you have six or eight really strong links courses within a ninety minute radius. 

Brora to Cruden Bay and Aberdeen is more than 90 minutes.

  Bill,

  You forgot the best one.

  Anthony

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ed,
I am curious as to what the CK green fee as a percentage of your entire trip (airfare, rental car, etc.)?

I am also a little surprised. At today's exchange it works out to $216 USD (and $30 of that is tax, which unlike in North America is not a hidden surcharge).

$216 is an expensive round of golf, but put it in context.

The top 10 on GOLF Magazine's Places You Can Play average $315/round;
the second 10 $278;
and the third ten $199.

Putting Castle Stuart in that context, CS is cheaper than several courses in the the third group (such as Red Sky Ranch, Troon North or Fallen Oak).

As Tom Dunne mentions, it was not meant to devolve into a discussion of green fees, but rather an enjoyable presentation that is pertinent to the subject of golf course architecture.

[David_Tepper]

Anyone who has not taken the "Links Course Tour" of CS should do that as well:

http://www.castlestuartgolf.com/course.html

[Ian Andrew]

I'm really glad I saw the course in construction - if you had a chance to see the site before - you would be absolutely blown away by what Gil has accomplished.

When I was out there walking the site Gil talked a lot about undulation and how he had gone over to local courses to find ideas and bring them back to Castle Stuart. He also let nature (the wind) develop some of the contours for him. It was really crazy windy the day I walked the course and we stopped to admire the wonderful undulations that he was developing on some of the upper holes. It was pretty cool to see them actually established and now in play.

I think this was an interesting course to watch because of the bunker experiments based on British Links and how he set out to creating bunkering from a period of transition in golf maintenance.

Finally I loved the emphasis on views and how many of the holes are clearly orientated to take maximum advantage of the surroundings. I really enjoyed what I saw going on and the amount of thought put into the golf course.

[Jeff_Mingay]

This is extremely inspiring stuff.

My hat's off to Gil, Mark and Jim, and all others involved with the development of Castle Stuart... including the people producing these interesting (and important) videos.

I get a sense that at least part of the aim of this particular development is a sincere attempt at advancing the art and science of golf course design and construction. Pretty cool.

The "transitional era" is a new term too. Interesting.

[ed_getka]

Ed,
I am curious as to what the CK green fee as a percentage of your entire trip (airfare, rental car, etc.)?

I am also a little surprised. At today's exchange it works out to $216 USD (and $30 of that is tax, which unlike in North America is not a hidden surcharge).

$216 is an expensive round of golf, but put it in context.

The top 10 on GOLF Magazine's Places You Can Play average $315/round;
the second 10 $278;
and the third ten $199.

Putting Castle Stuart in that context, CS is cheaper than several courses in the the third group (such as Red Sky Ranch, Troon North or Fallen Oak).

As Tom Dunne mentions, it was not meant to devolve into a discussion of green fees, but rather an enjoyable presentation that is pertinent to the subject of golf course architecture.

Ben,
    If I remember right CK was going to be about 20% of the golf for the trip. I am not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination and I can be positively frugal about some things. I have always maintained that there is a green fee:architecture ratio that I pay attention to when choosing which courses to play.
    I think Gil Hanse and his team does great work and I would look to play Castle Stuart simply based on the work of theirs I have seen. I was simply pointing out that in general I am not inclined to see a new course that costs nearly twice one of the greatest courses in the world.

[Adrian_Stiff]

This does look rather wonderful, and perhaps may eclipse Kingsbarns and the Castle course as 'the best newie'. Sean is spot on about £150 though, it is a lot of money to some/many. From Bristol its a £100 flight to Inverness, so a £300 day, £400 with a stop over. Maybe only 10% of my mates would be up for it, though they all would if it was £100 and on the doorstep.

[Rob Rigg]

I think the "expense" question was bludgeoned to death in the last CS thread . . . 

That was a truly inspiring piece of work on Castle Stuart and when I make it over to Scotland I cannot see myself playing fewer than two rounds at that course (amongst others).

I would agree with Sean that is absolutely on my short list of "dream courses" to visit. Parsinen and Hanse have clearly put a ton of thought into the course. It is rare that any team gets to work on such spectacular land so it is exciting to see such a positive outcome.

[Sean_A]

Despite the money, I would give CS a go if my group went for it.  I could see two days at Dornoch and Brora each with Castle Stuart chucked in coming or going.  Though, I would like to see a proper photo tour of the course from a golfer's perspective.  I don't spose anybody has a load of pix?

I can't believe I forgot Nuzzo's course down in Texas as one of those most wanna sees recently built courses - that makes 5.  I forgot the name, but from the pix it seemed a great lesson in restraint.

Ciao

[Lyne Morrison]

The thing that has struck me about Castle Stuart - aside from the wonderful course detailing - is the sense of passion that comes through in the various clips, spiels and images.

While a love of what one does is not unusual - sensing this in the public domain through the electronic media is perhaps? - granted some clever marketing is at work but for me interesting just the same.

Cheers - Lyne

[Robert Thompson]

I disagree with Sean's take that fewer are willing to pay the big bucks when it comes to golf in Ireland/Scotland/Englad. I'd argue that for many -- and I doubt Castle Stuart is trying to do 40,000 rounds per year -- 150 pounds is not that big a deal for a once-in-a-lifetime experience. When you think of it places like Perry Golf are all about people who aren't worried about the cost of golf -- otherwise they'd book it themselves. And I'd also argue that Ireland is now -- largely -- more costly than Scotland when it comes to golf.

Beyond that, I find it fascinating how the comparison point is TOC. What's the cost of maintaining TOC? Very little. What was the construction cost? Who knows, but it was paid for 200 years ago. So why are you paying 130 pounds to play there? Because demand dictates the fee the Links Trust can charge. You are being soaked and pretty much every one would say, "Soak me some more." I'd be included in that group.

However, I doubt Castle Stuart and Mark Parsinen are soaking you. I expect the land was expensive to acquire. I know the upper holes were largely created, so there was a significant cost in moving land. And top this off with the fact that I suspect Mark and Gil have created a course they feel will capture a lot of attention. They feel the market -- for however many rounds they hope to attract -- will accept that price. It isn't aimed at every golfer -- it is aimed at those making a pilgrimage to Scotland and are willing to pay the price. And I bet there will be a lot of them, especially if the course is well received.

This is capitalism -- this isn't some service to golf. Mark is trying to make a buck and recoup his initial investment. Feel free to not go to the course if you feel it is too costly. However, for those Americans thinking it is too expensive, forget the exchange. What you get for a pound is about equal to what you get for an American dollar. And I bet you'd play a lot of pretty average $150 golf courses that won't rival Castle Stuart if you think of it that way.

That said, when I walked around the course in 2006, it looked like it could be a step better than Kingsbarns, and that would be quite an accomplishment.

[Sean_A]

I disagree with Sean's take that fewer are willing to pay the big bucks when it comes to golf in Ireland/Scotland/Englad. I'd argue that for many -- and I doubt Castle Stuart is trying to do 40,000 rounds per year -- 150 pounds is not that big a deal for a once-in-a-lifetime experience. When you think of it places like Perry Golf are all about people who aren't worried about the cost of golf -- otherwise they'd book it themselves. And I'd also argue that Ireland is now -- largely -- more costly than Scotland when it comes to golf.

Beyond that, I find it fascinating how the comparison point is TOC. What's the cost of maintaining TOC? Very little. What was the construction cost? Who knows, but it was paid for 200 years ago. So why are you paying 130 pounds to play there? Because demand dictates the fee the Links Trust can charge. You are being soaked and pretty much every one would say, "Soak me some more." I'd be included in that group.

However, I doubt Castle Stuart and Mark Parsinen are soaking you. I expect the land was expensive to acquire. I know the upper holes were largely created, so there was a significant cost in moving land. And top this off with the fact that I suspect Mark and Gil have created a course they feel will capture a lot of attention. They feel the market -- for however many rounds they hope to attract -- will accept that price. It isn't aimed at every golfer -- it is aimed at those making a pilgrimage to Scotland and are willing to pay the price. And I bet there will be a lot of them, especially if the course is well received.

This is capitalism -- this isn't some service to golf. Mark is trying to make a buck and recoup his initial investment. Feel free to not go to the course if you feel it is too costly. However, for those Americans thinking it is too expensive, forget the exchange. What you get for a pound is about equal to what you get for an American dollar. And I bet you'd play a lot of pretty average $150 golf courses that won't rival Castle Stuart if you think of it that way.

That said, when I walked around the course in 2006, it looked like it could be a step better than Kingsbarns, and that would be quite an accomplishment.

Robert

My point is that there are FEWER golfers around who are willing to pay top whack for golf than say 10 years ago and that number will get smaller yet with the drop off and aging in private memberships.  £150 has already knocked a significant proportion of the home market on the head and those home market numbers are shrinking as well for the same reasons - age and reduction of private memberships.  Plus the fact that green fees have massively outpaced inflation these past 10 years or more.  I don't doubt that CS can do decently on one in a lifetime trips for the time being, but I think the future of golf tourism has to be more about how do we get them to come back because the first time market is doing nothing but shrinking yet the available choices is still growing.   

Don't get me started on TOC! 

Ciao