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Patrick_Mucci

par 4 1/2's ?

The par 5's at NGLA and on the back nine at ANGC would seem to lean toward par 4 1/2's.


Adam Clayman

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2009, 08:32:56 PM »
No way all.

On the other coast, the great ones I'm familiar with are not 4 1/2s. And that's downwind too.

5th @ CPC, 6, 14 & 18th @ Pebble, 1st @ Spyglass

I always liked 13 at ANGC as a par 3. ;)


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2009, 08:46:22 PM »
18th @ Pebble

That would seem to be a 4-1/2 these days, wouldn't it?
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

ChipOat

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2009, 08:53:48 PM »
#15 at Pine Valley is as good as it gets, IMO and that ain't no 4 1/2.

Given the Stupid Trees, #18 at Pebble isn't a really great anything.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2009, 09:22:28 PM »
Pat,
Par fives for who?  We are FAR too hung up on the Pro's game on this site.
Mark

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2009, 09:31:28 PM »
Pat,
Par fives for who?  We are FAR too hung up on the Pro's game on this site.
Mark

Exactly! And, not just the pros, but also highly skilled (low-handicap) players. Why do we judge holes based on what less than 5% of all golfers can do to them? To most golfers a 4 1/2 hole is any par-4 over 425 yards.


"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2009, 09:41:31 PM »
Michael Whitaker & Mark Fine,

I thought my citing of NGLA might help you context this thread.

As to Augusta, from the members tees the par 5's are as follows:

2    515
8    480
13  455
15  475

Hardly Herculian.

Obviously, I'll have to be more direct in the future  ;D
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 09:44:01 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

jkinney

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2009, 11:12:19 PM »
Pat,
Par fives for who?  We are FAR too hung up on the Pro's game on this site.
Mark

Hear, Hear !!!.....The touring pros play a different game. If architects designed courses around that standard, they'd be unplayable even for single digit amateurs....to wit, is Augusta as much fun for its members as it used to be ??????????

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2009, 11:15:54 PM »
Are the really great par 3s 3.5s?
Are the really great par 4s 4.5s?
Are big girls really beautiful, with curves in all the right places?

Yes and no.  Is 13 at Augusta THAT great a driving hole?  The tee ball is 90 degrees, for goodness' sake, to get to prime position.  It has a fabulous second shot in, for sure, but how great is that drive?  There are better drives on other holes (9, 10, 11, 18).  I'd call it a great par three as well, from fairway in to green.

Amen to the Pro Obsession.  We can't project ourselves onto their games, swings, mental states, so why should we discuss the holes solely from their perspective?  Any hole over a true 530 is unreachable for the average golfer.  That would, after all, take a 280 yard drive and a 250 yard second to sniff the stubble.  450 to 510 would be a 4.5 in my book.

That said, there is nothing like a short par five to salve the ego, if only for a moment.  Having a chance to do what you aren't supposed to do (putt for eagle) gets all golfers' juices flowing, which must be/have been the architect's precise intention.  Passionate involvement is the ultimate measurement.

I remember playing the 4th at Concord's The Monster and asking myself, when will this end?  At 600 yards with water in all the viable landing areas, it was a ridiculous golf hole.  It didn't qualify as great, in spite of its unreachable nature.  The designer (not really qualified IN THAT INSTANCE as an architect) was saying "No, you can't get here...nor there...nor there...take your 8," rather than challenging with "Sure, you can, but you must do this...and this...then this."

I will vote that the great par 5s come in all shapes, sizes and lengths.  The course that combines two shorties with two longos is much more desirable for me than a 1-2-1 configuration (2 being mid-length.)  2 risk-reward joined with 2 take your medicine rings my bell.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2009, 11:35:01 PM »
When I wrote that article about "Untouchable" par fives back in 1982, the dominant philosophy among architects was that ALL par fives should be par 4 1/2 holes for really good players.  A lot of architects did not even want to talk about true three-shot holes.

I think par fives have been the primary losers in the drive to beef up courses against technology, because architects have resisted too much.  In the early 80's, you'd see only one par five per course more than about 530 yards from the back tees ... so most of those holes were reachable for a low-handicapper on a downwind day.

Nowadays, the "medium" par fives are being stretched to 570 yards, which is reachable only for Tour pros and young bombers.  And nobody wants a par five under 500 yards anymore, even though that's the length at which the 13th at Augusta was so exciting.

Doug Siebert

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2009, 12:50:05 AM »
Tom, if a sub-530 yard par 5 was reachable for a low-handicapper on a downwind day, I'd say with modern equipment the same hole with an extra 40 yards tacked on ought to be reachable for him today.  Between the ball, the driver, and improved metal woods that seems plausible to me.  Maybe its not the SAME low-handicapper, because he's 25 years older, but someone who was equally skillful compared to average golfers of the time.  When I played in the 80s on an design from that time I usually found one par 5 quite reachable, one or two more that could be (but generally weren't) depending on the wind and ground and quality of my shots, and one where there was just no way.  I find the same today with modern designs.  They are longer, but so am I.

The issue I have with modern par 5s is not really the length, but the drive to make the second shot "interesting".  The second shots are way too interesting when you have to dodge water, sand, trees or a combination of those.  Older par 5s (say pre 1960s) used to use a cross bunker, you could attempt to clear the bunker (or perhaps small cluster of bunkers) or take a narrow gap to one side or the other, and secure a short shot even if you couldn't reach the green.  It was a fair risk reward proposition, and you didn't give up a huge amount of distance if you decided not to challenge it.

I see a lot of more modern courses where the landscape from 50 to 120 or more yards from the green is a veritable minefield of disasters waiting to happen.  I think this came about when golfers started to be taught to lay back to their full wedge distance - if architects defended the area 60 yards out like they used to, they'd leave golfers able to lay back to the distance they were told they should be, undefended.  The horror!  (I never bought into that full wedge crap, and you see that today's pros don't either, they'll hit a full 3W 40 yards short of a green now rather than laying back to 120 like they used to from 1980-2000)

The problems that await a longer layup are often enough that I just say hell with it and lay back to the 150 marker, even if that means I'm laying up with a 9i....and the 9i lay up has to be about the least interesting shot in golf.  So much for giving me a more interesting second shot to that par 5.  A higher handicapper is really screwed by this sort of thing.  He might as well let fly with a 3W and hope he gets lucky and misses all the problems that await him, because if he lays up where I am he's got no guarantee he won't be playing his FOURTH from that minefield after chunking, topping, shanking, etc. his third.  People will say that higher handicapper lacks in course management skills for not laying back of the trouble, but he's just playing the odds.  Correctly, in many cases, IMHO.

I'd much rather see soft hazards like fairway contours or peninsulas of rough that extend out into the fairway, or rough islands/grass bunkers used to defend the layup area, rather than things that will cause penalty strokes.  Even though the 50-80 yard bunker shot is hell for high handicappers, I think its OK because that's one shot that isn't very easy for low handicappers either.  But leave an area where its possible to roll the ball by the sand, when there are 5 or 6 medium sized bunkers sprayed across the fairway such that a rolling ball will certainly find one of them, it just punishing those golfers who least need punishment.
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Jim Nugent

Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2009, 01:13:04 AM »
Well, why don't we make a list of all the great par 5's?  Then we can see/argue over how many are par 4.5's.  I'll start with the ones George Peper and Golf Mag say are the best four in the world:

#13 ANGC
#18 Pebble
#6 Carnie
#3 Durban

Sean_A

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2009, 03:10:48 AM »
So far as I can remember, the only great 3 shotters I have seen are those which are 3 shotters due to weather conditions - though I must be forgetting a few true 3 shotters.  I can't recall ever playing a great true 3 shotter.  I am of the opinion that these are the hardest to design well and my experience of true 3 shotter bears this out.  To be honest, I dread seeing 550 or so on the card because its a great bet at 10 to 1 that the hole will be average at best. 

There are far too may superb 475-525 yard holes to recount here. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jordan Wall

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2009, 03:14:47 AM »
For a true three shot hole is the 14th at Pebble not better than the 18th?  Certainly Pebble's finishing hole could be reached by many low handicappers.

Either way, both are great holes.

Cheers,
Jordan

Rich Goodale

Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2009, 06:51:32 AM »
The three par-5's that I play regularly these days are all between 500-530 yards.  Even though I've been a 4-8 hcp (currently 5) over the 20-30 years I have played them the number of times I've reached each of them (pin high in the rough does not count!) is pitifully small.  Not only that, the number of times I have seen significanlty better players (i.e. 2 and below) hit these greens is also very small.  As each of these 3 holes offers an achieveable choice of hitting the green off of a good tee shot (i.e. long and on the right line), but also lay-up options for the player not willing to take the chances of a costly miscue, they are always fun to play.  However, quite frankly if I had to play a hole that required a long and properly straight drive, a long and properly placed 3-wood, then a solid and accurate mid-short iron, I'd get tired easily, or just call it a par-6......

Adam Clayman

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2009, 07:49:34 AM »
For those that think just having the ability to reach the 18th @ PB makes it a push over to par are mistaken and have never watched the top 5% play the hole repeatedly. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2009, 07:55:19 AM »
Pat,
Par fives for who?  We are FAR too hung up on the Pro's game on this site.
Mark

Smartest thing ever said on this site.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Anthony Gray

Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2009, 08:57:55 AM »


  Pat,

  The reachable par 5 sure does add exitement. Is PB 14 reachable now?

  Anthony


BCrosby

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2009, 10:10:09 AM »
Pat -

Are you suggesting that the 7th and 15th at PVGC are not great par 5's?

I think the real issue here is that par 3's and par 4's, at their upper bounds, can be seen as half par holes. And that's cool.

That doesn't apply to par 5's since there is no higher par to halve. But that's just a feature of par 5's, not a bug. (Just like at the lower bound, its a feature not a bug that you don't have par 3's that play as par 2.5's.)

There are plenty of really great unreachable par 5's. The greatest of them all seem to have interesting, challenging second shots.

Bob

 


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2009, 11:10:12 AM »


Are you suggesting that the 7th and 15th at PVGC are not great par 5's?

No.


I think the real issue here is that par 3's and par 4's, at their upper bounds, can be seen as half par holes. And that's cool.

That doesn't apply to par 5's since there is no higher par to halve. But that's just a feature of par 5's, not a bug. (Just like at the lower bound, its a feature not a bug that you don't have par 3's that play as par 2.5's.)

There are plenty of really great unreachable par 5's. The greatest of them all seem to have interesting, challenging second shots.

When you say "plenty" are you contexting it strictly from the back tees ?
Or, from all tees based upon the golfers usual selection ?



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2009, 11:23:13 AM »

Are the really great par 3s 3.5s?
Are the really great par 4s 4.5s?
Are big girls really beautiful, with curves in all the right places?

I don't know.
Perhaps you should start threads on those questions.


Yes and no.  
Is 13 at Augusta THAT great a driving hole?  

Yes


The tee ball is 90 degrees, for goodness' sake, to get to prime position.  


Not from a practical or playability point of view.
You've forgotten or choose to ignore the influence of the steep terrain, and the risk/reward associated with skirting with the creek.


It has a fabulous second shot in, for sure, but how great is that drive?  

It's a fabulous second shot ONLY if you've hit a great drive.
Without the great drive the second shot is usually a lay up.


There are better drives on other holes (9, 10, 11, 18).  

You're mistaken about # 10.
You can hit a mediocre to poor drive on # 10 and end up with good results.
The same can't be said about # 13.

As to # 9, I'd disagree on that one as well.
There's no need for perfect position in order to reach the green.
And, onerous lies do not await a ball hit well and straight


I'd call it a great par three as well, from fairway in to green.

Which part of the fairway ?
The part that derives from a great drive ?
Or the part that derives from a mediocre to poor drive ?
How many times have you played the hole ?


Amen to the Pro Obsession.  We can't project ourselves onto their games, swings, mental states, so why should we discuss the holes solely from their perspective?  Any hole over a true 530 is unreachable for the average golfer.  

# 13 is only 455 from the Members tees.
And, that's measuring it to the midpoint of the fairway, from the tee, and from that midpoint to the center of the green.

A well struck, well trajectoried drive makes the hole play even shorter, so why are you mentioning a 530 yard par 5 ?


That would, after all, take a 280 yard drive and a 250 yard second to sniff the stubble.  450 to 510 would be a 4.5 in my book.

Then # 13 would qualify as a par 4.5..... in your book


That said, there is nothing like a short par five to salve the ego, if only for a moment.  Having a chance to do what you aren't supposed to do (putt for eagle) gets all golfers' juices flowing, which must be/have been the architect's precise intention.  Passionate involvement is the ultimate measurement.

Would you conclude then that the really great par 5's are 4.5's ?


I remember playing the 4th at Concord's The Monster and asking myself, when will this end?  At 600 yards with water in all the viable landing areas, it was a ridiculous golf hole.  It didn't qualify as great, in spite of its unreachable nature.  The designer (not really qualified IN THAT INSTANCE as an architect) was saying "No, you can't get here...nor there...nor there...take your 8," rather than challenging with "Sure, you can, but you must do this...and this...then this."

I believe it was # 13 at The Concord and I believe it was touted as unreachable.  It certainly gained notoriety and peaked the golfer's curiosity.
It was a very challenging par 5, a true 3 shot hole.


I will vote that the great par 5s come in all shapes, sizes and lengths.  The course that combines two shorties with two longos is much more desirable for me than a 1-2-1 configuration (2 being mid-length.)  2 risk-reward joined with 2 take your medicine rings my bell.


Mark_Fine

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2009, 11:37:01 AM »
Pat,
You seem to be too hung up on DISTANCE as well.  Would you call Riviera's #10 hole a par 3 1/2 (even at 250 yards long for the member golfer)?  If so, you've learned very little about golf architecture in all these years on this site!
Mark

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2009, 11:42:42 AM »

Pat,

You seem to be too hung up on DISTANCE as well. 


Mark, I"m not hung up on anything.

I posed a question and you and Michael Whitaker chose to context it solely in the realm of the PGA Tour game.


Would you call Riviera's #10 hole a par 3 1/2 (even at 250 yards long for the member golfer)?  If so, you've learned very little about golf architecture in all these years on this site!

Feel free to initiate a thread on par 3 1/2's.

This thread is about par 5's.



TEPaul

Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2009, 12:14:17 PM »
Patrick:

God-damn it to hell, will you please stop using "context" as a verb!? None of my dictionaries define it as a verb and if you don't stop using it as a verb I'm coming up there to North Jersey and take some steel-wool to your typing fingers and wash your mouth out with horse soap!!

You sound like some of these ridiculous Republican politicians who think they're saying something clever when they aren't really making an iota of sense.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:17:07 PM by TEPaul »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Are the really great par 5's great par 5's or are they really
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2009, 12:43:30 PM »
Getting back to PB #14...

I thought this last go around at Pebble there were a few bombers who were very close to 14 in 2.  Even just 5-6 years ago this par 5 was still in the "no f'ing way your even getting close in 2" category.


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