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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2009, 02:35:58 PM »
Anthony:

Walk-mowing greens is obviously much more labor-intensive and more expensive, but one aspect of it that's overlooked is the potential for damage to the greens from hydraulic leaks from the triplex.  In Bandon they believe the damage from a hydraulic leak to the fescue has a very long-lasting effect, so they are still walk-mowing to prevent that possibility.


This is something that is often used but I am of the opinion that it is not correct if you look at the whole picture.

Yes just lookin at the time it takes to mow then you have on an average 18 hole course about 6 hours for one person to mow the greens by hand as apposed to 2.5 with a triplex but the following should be observed.

The triplex mower needs someone to go out afterwards to collect the clipping from the storage bins which takes a good hour every other day.
The triplex always brings with it triplex ring and puts more stress on the surrounds where it turn than the hand mower.
Compaction is higher and this has the knock on effect of increasing maintenance.
It is harder, costs more to buy and takes more time to set up and maintain. It also costs more to buy and has about half the working life.

If you take all these factors into account then I don't think you will find that hand mowing is that much more expensive.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2009, 04:03:24 PM »
In general, I think the more grass you grow(clipping yield), the more it matters. Less irrigation and fertility reduces a lot of the woes of mowing.....clean up passes aren't needed as frequently, clippings don't pile up, compaction is less likely with less water, etc.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

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Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2009, 04:03:51 PM »
Jon:

Thanks for that analysis.  I'm sure you are right that the triplex mowers are much more expensive machines and that they are sold for a premium because they "reduce labor."

The one part I didn't understand was why the clippings have to be handled differently ... why is it easier to get rid of them with walk-behind mowers?

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2009, 04:40:49 PM »
In general, I think the more grass you grow(clipping yield), the more it matters. Less irrigation and fertility reduces a lot of the woes of mowing.....clean up passes aren't needed as frequently, clippings don't pile up, compaction is less likely with less water, etc.

Joe

So, do you think golfers notice when triplexes are used, machines are used in the bunkers??
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 04:47:29 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2009, 04:46:53 PM »
In my experience, golfers don't notice when things are in great shape, they notice when something went wrong.  They don't notice the 80 perfectly maintained bunkers, they noticed  the one rock that was missed and effected their shot.
Secondly, you can get away with sub par conditions everywhere else if you have really good greens. 
  T DeJonge,
   I know you spent time at Arcadia Bluffs. In the spring and fall, when greens were triplexed peridically, did you ever hear comments from the golfers?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2009, 04:51:09 PM »
In general, I think the more grass you grow(clipping yield), the more it matters. Less irrigation and fertility reduces a lot of the woes of mowing.....clean up passes aren't needed as frequently, clippings don't pile up, compaction is less likely with less water, etc.

Joe

So, do you think golfers notice?

Tony,

I think golfers notice quality of cut when there is a lot of grass to see when it isn't so great. Same thing with clipping control. Golfers do notice clippings, either laying on the grass or stuck on there golf balls.

If we take a look at Sean Arble's thread about "Lies", I think we'll see why it's easier for golfers to notice things when there is a lot of green, growing grass vs. the more minimal input turf.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2009, 06:29:12 PM »
Joe,
  I never played Grand Island, so these are assumptions-I assume greens and tees were triplex mowed, fairways mowed with a gang mower. Bunkers were either machine raked, or you had very few, therfore it was easy to handrake. In regards to clippings, I'm sure that you collected clippings on greens, maybe not the rest of your playing surfaces. Now, say you were to walk mow greens and tees, mow fairways with a 5-plex, and the heights were the same as before. Do you think that they'd notice the extra care/labor taken to use smaller, more detailed machines, resulting in more employees? WOuld the paying public be able to notice/appreciate the difference? Keep in mind, you're not changing your height of cuts, just mowing with different machines.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2009, 06:34:49 PM »
Tony,

The golfing public would not have known the difference at Grand Island.

Typically, I emptied baskets once, maybe twice per 19 greens of mowing. Getting rid of the clippings in inconspicuous places around the course was easy.

Hope you're well,

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

T DeJonge

Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2009, 06:36:19 PM »
Compaction is less likely with
In general, I think the more grass you grow(clipping yield), the more it matters. Less irrigation and fertility reduces a lot of the woes of mowing.....clean up passes aren't needed as frequently, clippings don't pile up, compaction is less likely with less water, etc.

Joe

So, do you think golfers notice?

Tony,

I think golfers notice quality of cut when there is a lot of grass to see when it isn't so great. Same thing with clipping control. Golfers do notice clippings, either laying on the grass or stuck on there golf balls.

If we take a look at Sean Arble's thread about "Lies", I think we'll see why it's easier for golfers to notice things when there is a lot of green, growing grass vs. the more minimal input turf.

Joe


Joe,

I don't think every golfer wants to see minimalist conditions, some golfers like to see green and will deal with some clippings to see it.  Also the use of plant growth regulators would help with this problem.

compaction is less likely with less water, etc.

I have never heard of this....

Tony,

I never heard any complaints, but it was also during the off peak season.


Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2009, 07:02:13 PM »
I think we'll see why it's easier for golfers to notice things when there is a lot of green, growing grass vs. the more minimal input turf.

Joe

Remember everyone looks good in April... bentgrass greens lush and growing in July and August is the tough part... keep them nice until the September aeration... and a supe will keep his job forever!!

Sean McCue

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2009, 08:00:12 PM »
I think it is easier for the golfers to notice the things that are wrong rather than everything else that is right.  It is much easier to focus on the negative than the positive.  When was the last time you heard a player say “those are the straightest mowing lines I have ever seen” or “ that bunker was perfectly raked” ?

Here is an example of how most things on a course go unnoticed by your average golfer.  Two years ago, I changed the color of the flags and flag sticks from white to yellow and not one person noticed or said anything about it.     


Be sure to visit my blog at www.cccpgcm.blogspot.com and follow me on twitter @skmqu

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2009, 08:26:21 PM »
T DeJonge,

I agree that minimalist is not for everyone, and have stated such in the past. Not a right or wrong thing so much as a preference thing.

On compaction, I was always taught that water aided in soil compaction. Take a handful of semi-dry topsoil vs a handful of very moist soil and make a ball out of it. Which do you think has displaced the most air out of the soil?.....compaction.

Roger,

Agreed per the aesthetics of it all. Once again, a preference is to concentrate on aesthetics. Lush is a state of mind..... :)

I was an owner, so having the ability to pursue my preferences without fear of losing my job was a liberating situation.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2009, 10:28:04 PM »
I think that this is more of an over arching question than the world of golf.  It runs up against the entire notion of visual literacy.  

As to what do people notice, I have no way to generalize.

Sites such as Cape Kidnappers or PB are so overwhelming it is easy to overlook the course.

The late Mike Strantz makes you notice everything on the golf course.

No scholar of visual literacy am I.  Just a golfer.  I notice what's different.  Normally my expectations of a course are based on what I've seen there before.  If there's a change, I'll notice it.  Or if there's something out of my ordinary experience, I'll notice.  Then, sometimes, I'll see something somewhere that will strike me as so unusual, in my own experience, that I'll carry it over and ask, why don't we, they, whoever, do that (or, I'm really glad we don't do that)?

Then why ask the original question, "Do golfers really notice?"  It has to do with how golfers are going to respond to the course for which you're responsible, public or private.  It's marketing, isn't it?  Bunkers and greens, as others have pointed out, by their nature . . . function . . . are going to be most likely to be noticed.  From an operational standpoint, the question is how you can provide value -- the relatively best golf experience, as perceived by the golfers, for the least amount of money.

As a recreational golfer, I'd never really focused on the "bunker raking" issue until visiting Scotland.  In my early golf experience, one carefully raked bunkers.  You expected the grounds crew and other players to carefully rake bunkers.  I had no real good idea why.  That's just the way it was done.  Professional golfers expect professionally raked bunkers.  Seven years ago at Dornoch I found the bunkers unraked -- "smoothed" by foot, maybe.  I cannot recall if rakes were even provided at Dornoch then.  I recall courses in Scotland with old, beat-up-half-rakes, and some with fairly nice (American?) rakes.  In neither case, however, used as carefully as normally  the case here in the USA.  Then, the idea of a bunker as a hazard started to take hold with me.  Today, I could do with leaving the raking, with rakes, up to the players, or without rakes, up to the players with their clubs or feet, or whatever.  But, from a marketing standpoint, I don't think that's going to work for the majority of players.  You pay private club dues or public course fees, and you expect nicely raked bunkers (the pros do, of course, so shouldn't you?).  If our club could save money by letting the golfers, on the go, do the raking, then, fine, as long as that's perceived by our members as good value in terms of money spent (on initiation and dues) and the end result -- bunkers that are hazards.

How do we get there?  The way the economy is going, we may not have much choice.  Otherwise, it's got to be a contest of wills.  Those of us who prefer the hazard approach could push for that.  At public courses the owners could just take chances.  At private clubs, you'd be chance-taking too, but you could do it on an experimental basis.  Let the players rake bunkers for a while, and see what happens.  Announce that you're undertaking an experimental program and why (history or roots and money).  Maybe the members will go for it, but maybe not.  You'll never know unless you try.  How about the PGA?  Do they have the gumption to lead the way?  No.  Didn't Nicklaus try something with Oakmont style raking at the Memorial and get "killed" for it a number of years ago.  Wouldn't it be cool if a rich man (or woman) put on a big dollar LPGA or PGA tournament without providing bunker rakes at all?

Mowing?  I'm an intersted novice.  Just a golfer.  I'd like to have fairly consistent greens, not too fast and not too slow (by my definition!) for the slopes, but what kind of a mower?  As a golfer, I have no idea what you're using and what the differences are.  I'd like to learn, which is one of the reasons I've joined this group, but I am sure I'm in a very small minority of golfers in that respect.

Finally, focusing on the money-saving issue, in the private club setting, what about the members doing some of the work?  I think that shoud be a separate discussion.


Jon Wiggett

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Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2009, 04:34:47 AM »
Jon:

Thanks for that analysis.  I'm sure you are right that the triplex mowers are much more expensive machines and that they are sold for a premium because they "reduce labor."

The one part I didn't understand was why the clippings have to be handled differently ... why is it easier to get rid of them with walk-behind mowers?

Tom,

with a hand mower the greenkeeper will usually use a form transport (gator, workman,etc.) between the greens that also allows him to empty the clippings into. Indeed, the greenkeeper can also check the bins and change cups at the same time thus reducing the time spent on these jobs too.

Using a triplex usually means that a tempory depot must be used from which the clippings will be collected at a later point.


John Burzynski

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Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2009, 09:04:45 AM »
Not sure it is a case whether golfers notice these things, but whether they care.  It is probably all relative anyhow, if your level of expectation is carefully raked bunkers and such, then you will notice if the standards are 'less' than you expect.

I think that over time if all courses would loosen their standards a bit, golfers wouldn't notice the change, but that would be impossible to coordinate and mandate.  As soon as one course down the road has 'better mowing' or 'better raking' the whole set of expectations everywhere changes, and that is a shame.  Of course there are certain minimal standards for almost all golfers, but mostly it seems to be an expectation rather than anything being noticed specifically.

Roger Wolfe

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Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2009, 09:24:12 AM »


Another factor lost to folks who don't work in the industry is the timing of all this maintenance.  Greens have to be mowed and bunkers need to be raked before play, especially on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays since you want to look your best when the most people are enjoying the course.  This is true, to a lesser extent with fairway and tee mowing.  Rough mowing can usually be done on a rotational basis during the entire workweek.  Bunkers are usually trashed (private and public) by Thursday night and especially after busy Fridays and Saturdays.  Greens should be mowed every morning.  This concentrates your labor requirement to a 3 hour period on your busy mornings.  Bringing in part time help on weekends is next to impossible with the skill and training necessary to properly walk mow a green.  We figure out the required number of workers necessary to properly prepare the course, then work backwards from there.  This puts even further pressure on superintendents and I salute them for the challenging ways they are forced to manage staff and required tasks.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do golfers even notice?
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2009, 09:29:13 AM »
I notice.

I certainly took notice at a course I lived on for a few years, because they hand mowed during the spring and switched to triplex from about mid-May. There was also a period where they hand mowed the first and second greens (both deeply shaded) and triplexed the others.

I much preferred the look and feel of the hand mowed ones, but I also felt they were more consistent. Seems like the triplexed greens always had a tendency to be scalped around the edges.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.