[Ally Mcintosh]

I'd be very interested to know how they managed to verify this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7949045.stm

[TEPaul]

I bet they have "course" confused with "club"

[Rich Goodale]

I'm interested too, Ally, but I assume that they got the nod only because they were the only people to ask the GBR people for inclusion.  There are a lot of earlier references to golf courses on sites which are still used today, including Dornoch and Aberdeen as well as, of course, St. Andrews.

Tom

Don't make that bet.  It is pretty well established that the first club was the Royal Burgess in Edinburgh in 1735.  The first club based at Musselburgh (Royal Musselburgh) did not come onto the scene until a few decades later.

Rich

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Perhaps but that doesn't mean Musselburgh is not confusing "course with "club". The Edinburgh Golf's club is older but they've moved a bunch of times right?

[Phil_the_Author]

Rich & Tom,

Though I don't know if the following is correct, I have this from "Doc" Malcolm, author of the new Old Tom Morris book that it is.

This is the order of the founding of the various golf clubs in Scotland:
1744   Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers…...………………………. Edinburgh
1754   Royal and Ancient Golf Club……….….……….…………………….. St. Andrews       
1766   Royal Blackheath Golf Club………………………………………………. London
1770   Royal Burgess Golfing Society………………………………………..... Edinburgh
1780   Royal Aberdeen Golf Club………………………………………………. Aberdeen
1784   Royal Musselburgh Golf Club……………………………………….. Musselburgh
1786   Crail Golfing Society…………………………………………………………. Crail
1787   Brontsfield Golfing Society………………………...………………...… Edinburgh
           Glasgow Golf Club………………………………………………….….… Glasgow           
1797   Burnwisland Golf Club…………………………………………………
1810   Royal Albert (Montrose) Golf Club…………………………………..…. Montrose 
1815   Kingsbarns Golf Club……………………………………………..… Kingsbarns

His reasoning on Edinburgh being the first is:
      In 1773, in the Statistical Account of Scotland, we find recorded that, “The greatest and wisest in the land were to be seen on the links mingling freely with the humblest mechanics in pursuit of their common and beloved amusement in golf. All distinctions of rank were leveled in the spirit of the game. Lords of Session and cobblers, knights, baronets and tailors might be seen earnestly contesting for the palm of superior dexterity, and vehemently but good-humouredly discussing moot points of the game as they arose in the course of play.”
      Golf as a game had found its birth on the links of Scotland. For many years friends would get together in a field and set up a course and have at it in friendly competitions. It was only when they got together and formed golfing clubs or societies that rules and regulations for play and regular courses with paid greenkeepers to keep the links in good order, were to be found.
      Nearly forty years earlier, in 1744, an ‘open’ golf competition was held at Leith, when, “several gentleman of honour, skilful in the ancient and healthful exercise of golf” petitioned the City of Edinburgh Council to provide a silver club for annual competition on the Links of Leith. The city Magistrates agreed and held a competition that would be open to “As many Nobleman or Gentleman or other golfers, from any part of Great Britain or Ireland.” The winner would be called the “Captain of the Golf,” and was to serve as arbiter of all disputes surrounding the game.
      Only ten men entered, all local yet all were already well-known on the links. Each had figure prominently in Thomas Mathieson’s mock-heroic poem “The Goff” which had been published the previous year.   
      No one is certain as to the cause, whether due to lack of outside interest or the opposite, a threat of a rising number of other golfers, but in 1774 the “Captains of the Golf,” those being all past living winners of the Leith open competition, petitioned the City of Edinburgh Council “To admit such Nobleman and Gentleman as they approve to be members of the Company of Golfers” and to restrict the competition to those members, and thus the first golf club was formed, the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers.
      As competitions at golf increased, the need for golfing clubs to contend them in grew as well, and links to play them on also grew. Throughout Scotland and England golfing societies were born. A competition trophy appears to have been the catalyst behind the formation of the Society of St. Andrews Golfers, what would be the forerunner of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews. On May 14th, 1754, “twenty-two Nobleman and Gentleman, being admirers of the ancient and healthful exercise of the golf,” agreed to provide a silver club to be the trophy for a competition at golf. The competition was limited to players who were members of either the St. Andrews or Edinburgh golfing societies, and that is possibly why their play was so much better than the others who enjoyed the game over the St. Andrews links, only four players participated. The system of golf clubs that would grow to what is presently enjoyed was born.

[Rich Goodale]

Phil

The Burgess date is based on a reference to the founding of the club in a journal of record written nearly a century later.  Most people seem to take their claim seriously, but I can see why Malcolm might think otherwise.

Rich

[Bradley Anderson]

In my research of the history of the hole cup, the earliest reference that I could find to the 4-1/4" diameter came from 1829 committee meeting minutes of the Royal Musselburgh Club. Quoting from memory: "Mr. Gay is authorized to purchase the instrument for the digging of the holes cups." The article went on to say that the instrument was 4-1/4" inch diameter.

Now perhaps Royal Musselburgh Club isn't the oldest club, but it is very likely that the first greenkeeper was Gay.  

[Steve Salmen]

I can't begin to imagine how livid the people of St. Andrews must be at Guiness.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

I agree with Rich. Some people concentrate on the oldest golf club but this thread says the oldest golf course. There's a big difference in my opinion. I've always heard TOC could somehow be traced back to the 15th century but maybe that's not particularly factually accurate for some reason I'm not aware of.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The article mentions some famous early Musselburgh golfers (such as willie Dunn) but omits the Park family.  They would have played at this course, wouldn't they.

[Dan King]

Scottish history is traditionally a little sketchy. A group of men getting together in the late 1600s and early 1700s and keeping records of these meetings could be dangerous. Plenty of records from that period were destroyed for political reasons. There is much we will never know about that period.

Cheers,
Dan King

The aftermath of Culloden exacted penalties which were to leave a permanent scar on the Highlands of Scotland in the deliberate extinction of the Celtic way of life - by killing, destruction, confiscation and deportation. A tragic time, unequalled by any other in Scottish history.
 --Iain Campbell

[TEPaul]

Dan:

I understand the sketchiness of the record keeping but isn't it known at least (documented) that King James IV bought clubs at St. Andrews in 1506? If he did that then there must have been some golf there, and if so where could it have been but on the land of TOC which is right next to the town and the university? It also seems golf has always been connected to the Univeristy that began in the early 15th century making it one of the 3-4 oldest universties in the English Speaking world I believe.

Again, the first formation of a golf club is a whole different matter than a first golf course that has been on the same land continuously.

Consequently Musselburgh's claim that it is the oldest course seems to be a real stretch. Golf club perhaps but not golf course.

[Sean_A]

Musselburgh has long claimed to be the oldest course - not club. 

Ciao

[Dan King]

According to one of the best histories of golf I have ever read, Golf: Scotland's Game by David Hamilton, King James IV purchases of ball and clubs took place at Falkland Palace. The King was traveling at the time, and spending time at Perth, Stirling and Falkland Palace in Fife.

An entry for Feb. 03, 1503: "Item to the King to play at golf with the Erle of Bothuile [Bothwell] xlij s. [fortytwo shillings]."

Another entry from the same day has the King giving money to the Bishop of St. Andrews. Three days later he bought more golf balls and paid an innkeeper. This could mean he traveled far from Falkland Palace, perhaps to St. Andrews and played golf. But it is just guesswork on anybody's part. To jump from these entries to the idea of him playing on the exact same land where the Old Course now sits would nothing more than a guess.

At least according to Hamilton's theory, there were two different games of golf, the noble game and the commoner game, more like hockey, played in churchyards and different enclosed areas of town.

"There were a number of places were the aristocratic golfers could have played a satisfying game. On the occasion of purchasing clubs in 1502 at Perth, the King may have played on the ancient golfing site of the North Inch. About the time of the King's purchases of golf equipment, there is the record of another noble golfer, Sir Robert Maule, who 'exercised the gouff' at the links at Barry [Carnoustie]. Mary, Queen of Scots played 'golf and pall mall' in 'the fields beside Seton'. probably the links at present-day Cockenzie."(31)

Hamilton also makes the case for golf surviving in Scotland in the Highlands. During this early period golf was a winter game, generally played on Sundays. With less work to do during the winter and Sunday being a traditional day of rest, it makes some sense to guess the game was played then. But with the Reformation, golf couldn't be played on Sunday. Knox and the Reformation didn't reach the Highlands, and therefore the game survived the period, while it might have disappeared in the Lowlands.

With such limited documentation surviving the eighteenth century, Hamilton's guesses are just that. But it is possible golf survived up around Dornoch, while it wouldn't have survived around Seton, giving Dornoch or Moray a claim to being older continuous than Musselburgh or St. Andrews. No way golf could have been played on Sundays in St. Andrews.

I'd advice anyone interested in golf history to check out Hamilton's book. It probably creates more questions than it answers, but that is what makes it so cool.

Cheers,
Dan King

Mediaeval Sundays were important for sport. To attend church, people came considerable distance by foot to the scattered townships, and on that day they enjoyed company and entertainment.
 --David Hamilton

[Ken McGlynn]

Years ago, while driving to Murfield from the Edinburgh area, a buddy and I stopped to play the old Musselburgh links inside the racecourse. What a treat, not unlike visiting Prestwick for the first time. Conditions were very sketchy but we had a great time nonetheless.

I had heard there was a movement to bring the maintenance of the course to playable standards. To our UK brethren, what's the state of things today on these links?

[Brian_Ewen]

The first mention of a golf hole is in Aberdeen 1625 .

Yet Musselburgh are claiming the oldest course with documentary proof from 1672 , with no mention of a hole 

[Rich Goodale]

Ken

Musselburgh has been trying for the past few years to expand to an 18 hole course, with a lot of opposition from both horse racing fans and locals who think that their sea views might be impinged upon.  I haven't heard of much for a while.  Does anybody know the status of this project?

And yes, I agree that it is a treat.

rich

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