Does Pete Dye get a free pass?

[Chris_Clouser]

Not so much on this site, as I have criticized some of his work and I know others have as well, but does he get a free pass in the golf world in general?

Having seen photos of some of his recent work at Pound Ridge and seeing first hand some of it at the new Dye course in French Lick I am wondering if his name is outweighing the true merits of his work in some instances.  Is he above criticism now for some reason?

Saying this I should say that I love some of his work as well, The Fort and Mystic Hills come to mind here in Indiana.  But I see a lot of his work getting ranked a lot higher than I would think possible in recent rankings (the golfweek rankings for one). 

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:

At 83, I think it's fair to say that Mr. Dye has earned a bit of latitude in the golf business.

Also, some of the courses that are marketed under his name are courses that he didn't have so much to do with, although that is NOT true of the new French Lick course, where I know he spent a fair amount of time.  (For that matter, I am not sure how much of the work you liked at The Fort or Mystic Hills is Pete Dye's, and how much is Tim Liddy's, or some other assistant.)

In the 1960's through 1980's Pete's business model was to take one or two projects at a time and live on-site.  In that period, he built everything from The Golf Club, Crooked Stick and Casa de Campo to Oak Tree, the TPC at Sawgrass, Long Cove, and Blackwolf Run.  I think those are the courses upon which his legacy is rightly judged.

[Anthony Gray]

  He has his rightful place in the golf Hall of Fame. A major contributor to modern golf. I have not seen his latest works but he has added creativity to the game.

  Anthony

[Phil McDade]

I am not a big fan of Blackwolf Run, or Meadow Valleys either. I'd also note that Whistling Straits and the Irish Course have drawn their share of detractors, both here on this board and elsewhere.

[Damon Groves]

I am not a fan of Pete Dye's work but he has cleary made significant contributions to golf architecture and brought golf out of a very sad era of golf course design that inspired many of our current great architects. With that I would say he gets a little bit of a pass.

[Greg Tallman]

Chris:

At 83, I think it's fair to say that Mr. Dye has earned a bit of latitude in the golf business.

Also, some of the courses that are marketed under his name are courses that he didn't have so much to do with, although that is NOT true of the new French Lick course, where I know he spent a fair amount of time.  (For that matter, I am not sure how much of the work you liked at The Fort or Mystic Hills is Pete Dye's, and how much is Tim Liddy's, or some other assistant.)

In the 1960's through 1980's Pete's business model was to take one or two projects at a time and live on-site.  In that period, he built everything from The Golf Club, Crooked Stick and Casa de Campo to Oak Tree, the TPC at Sawgrass, Long Cove, and Blackwolf Run.  I think those are the courses upon which his legacy is rightly judged.

Tom,

I take it you are not as fond of Pete Dye Golf Club as is those associated with Golfweek's rating program?

[RJ_Daley]

TD, did you omit or just no love for Kiawah TOC?

[Mark_Fine]

Chris,
What is a free pass?  I don't like all his work (I've played dozens of his designs) or some of his repetition, but rarely would I ever pass up the opportunity to play one of his designs.  He is a living legend and few will ever approach the quality and uniqueness of his work.  With few exceptions will you ever play a Pete Dye course (or even a hole) where you don't have to think on every shot.  I can not think of any other architect (bar none) who's work I can say that about.  Again, that doesn't mean I like everything he designs (I don't) but he is creative and gives it his all.  
Mark

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:  My bad for omitting Kiawah (Ocean).  Pete certainly spent a lot of time there, although it's not my favorite of his courses.

Greg:  I forgot about Pete Dye Golf Club, because most of it doesn't fit with the timeline I described.  (I worked there myself for a month in 1985 ... but the first nine didn't even open until 1993.)  I'm on record as thinking it's one of Pete's better courses, and perhaps overlooked by the other mags.  But, no way I would put it #1 on his list of accomplishments, as GOLFWEEK does.  That seems silly to me, especially since Pete has built so many courses that got (and deserved) so much attention, and Pete Dye Golf Club has never been in the limelight and struggled to survive.

[Dan Herrmann]

Sure, Mr. Dye gets a free pass, but it's certainly extremely well deserved.

Think for a minute about where golf archtecture would be today without Mr. Dye.  If you don't believe me, draw youself a "family tree" of modern architecture.  I'd propose that Mr. Dye would be the root of that tree.

[Greg Tallman]

RJ:  My bad for omitting Kiawah (Ocean).  Pete certainly spent a lot of time there, although it's not my favorite of his courses.

Greg:  I forgot about Pete Dye Golf Club, because most of it doesn't fit with the timeline I described.  (I worked there myself for a month in 1985 ... but the first nine didn't even open until 1993.)  I'm on record as thinking it's one of Pete's better courses, and perhaps overlooked by the other mags.  But, no way I would put it #1 on his list of accomplishments, as GOLFWEEK does.  That seems silly to me, especially since Pete has built so many courses that got (and deserved) so much attention, and Pete Dye Golf Club has never been in the limelight and struggled to survive.

Tom,

Thank you and I was just curious as I know you love Long Cove which I do not share a  similar opinion of. Your opinions of Pete's work come with unique insight and that is valued and appreciated.

When it comes to PDGC I agree, very good work/course but I believe Golfweek grossly overrates the course. As a native West Virginian who would love ot laud the place as the greatest thing since sliced bread that is tough for me to say. During your time wroking on PDGC did you have the ocassion to meet the elder LaRossa? Quite the character.

Heck in 1985 you were 8 or 9 years into construction... one would think you should have been working on the 3rd or 4th course by that time!  

At any rate #4 modern is out of whack with reality and again calls into question the makeup and management of the GW panel. Just my 2 pesos.

I am sure this will cost our facility in their version of the international rankings but I am confident that our course stands on its own merits at this stage.

[Forrest Richardson]

I think Pete can do far more out-on-a-limb design work than many people, because he has earned the respect of many. I am not sure that equates to a "free pass" however.

The design world works this way:

Young designer, or designer with a limited portfolio, + risk-taking work = shock and critique

More seasoned designer (e.g., Pete) + risk taking work = acclaim or acceptance (limited critique..."reserved critique")

Neither situation is ideal. Frankly, the designer with a limited amount of work should be applauded and encouraged, even it it is questionable. And, perhaps the seasoned man or woman should be held to some stricter standard — and made to stand up long after the fire in the belly has worn out.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think some of you are critiquing Pete's work without analyzing it in the context of its chronology, and, without contexting it in comparison to the new architecture that existed just prior to his arrival on the scene.

Pete's work was revolutionary, a clear departure from what had come in the previous decades.

Hilton Head, TPC, Crooked Stick and others changed the direction of golf course architecture in America.

That alone puts Pete at the top of his class.

[Ronald Montesano]

Let's take it a step farther.  What did Paul "Pete" Dye bring back to golf course architecture in America?  I remember being a high school kid in the early 80s, reading about waste bunkers that used no rakes and were not considered hazards.  Trent Sr. wasn't using them, nor were Finger, Lee, Wilson, G. Fazio or any of the other designers of the 1960s and 1970s.  That's one element.  Same goes for railroad ties, although that's more of an aesthetic/support point than an architectural one.  What else did Dye bring back/add during his 1965-1985 period?

[Andy Troeger]

What else did Dye bring back/add during his 1965-1985 period?

Without meaning to be too much of a smart aleck...strategic play!

I have three of Dye's courses in my top personal top ten--The Golf Club, Blackwolf Run, and TPC Sawgrass. Whistling Straits may be a bit overrated at times but its still top 100 in my book, as is Harbour Town and I think Crooked Stick and Long Cove at least deserve strong consideration. That's only including courses I've seen--I'm sure Pete Dye GC, Ocean Course, and others would likely just add to that. I also think Promontory's Dye Course is very worthwhile. I'd list Pete Dye as my favorite modern architect and not think twice at this point based on what I've seen.

That said, I don't like ALL his courses. I'm not a fan of the Irish at Whistling Straits or Purdue's Kampen Course. I do look forward to seeing the new one at French Lick.

[Matt Kardash]

Chris,
I think it's easy to be a little put off by some of Pete Dye's courses now because his style is really not in vogue at all right now. His courses are kind of like listening to 80s music in the 90s. However, now that we have given it enough time some 80s music elements are coming back into style again. It's all about perspective. I bet you when we  give his body of work enough time to marinate we will think it was pretty special. I think they already are right now, but maybe that just makes me a hipster who is ahead of the curve

Tom Doak,
I know I just lost you when I made an analogy to music  

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't agree with the music analogy at all.  I think that the initial complaint was about Dye's most recent stuff.  As Doak pointed out, much of the newer stuff was overseen by underlings and assistants, not the great one himself.  Without Dye, you have no Sebonack (both Doak and Nicklaus learned from Dye before striking out on their own).

Strategic play was not needed on courses from Trent, Finger, Lee, Wilson, et al, Andy?  Can you elaborate?  Do you mean Point A To Point B To Point C (9th hole at TPC)?

[Matt Kardash]

I don't agree with the music analogy at all.  I think that the initial complaint was about Dye's most recent stuff.  As Doak pointed out, much of the newer stuff was overseen by underlings and assistants, not the great one himself.  Without Dye, you have no Sebonack (both Doak and Nicklaus learned from Dye before striking out on their own).

Strategic play was not needed on courses from Trent, Finger, Lee, Wilson, et al, Andy?  Can you elaborate?  Do you mean Point A To Point B To Point C (9th hole at TPC)?

Well, I am just saying his style in general isnt in vogue right now. I'm not judging any of his courses in particular. His style really hasn't change all that much for the better part of 30 years.

[Andy Troeger]

There are obviously exceptions, but there seem to be a lot of "hit down the middle" courses from the time period preceeding Dye. The courses I've played from the guys you mentioned have often been pretty dull (with some exceptions). I like Spyglass and Point O'Woods from RTJ, both have some strategy and interesting features.

The main thing is that Dye created MORE of them on most of his courses. I've never been bored on any of his courses--if anything he occasionally goes a bit over the top for better or worse. #9 at Sawgrass isn't a hole that would originally come to mind although I think its a great three shot par five. The better player needs to decide whether to be agressive and the rest of us are faced with choices if we miss a shot somewhere along the way.

More often Dye's courses feature interesting hazards even if water can be over-present. You can challenge the hazards but there is always some kind of risk involved. I'd take that over the guys you mention any day.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris:

The issue with Pound Ridge had plenty to do with a site that was extremely tight for a full 18-hole layout. As a result, you get "playing" corridors (shall I call them that?) that accentuate the slightest burp in one's driving game.

Candidly, I am amazed that so many people fawn over the two layouts at Whistling Straits. I don't doubt the course can be a beast when set-up and the conditions get nasty -- but the architecture there is not in any unique way above and beyond what Pete has done previously. In fact, I see plenty of cut'n paste elements.

Pete also works in plenty of difficult sites -- the 36-hole complex in Simi Valley with Lost Canyon is another example. It has clearly garnered plenty of feelings -- mostly negative from this site -- although I like a number of things with the Sky 18.

To stay on the music theme -- Pete reminds me of Sinatra -- his work with Nelson Riddle was supreme stuff and pushed Ole Blue Eyes even further through the roof. Then Frank mailed it in and at the end could not remember the words to his own songs. I think Pete benefits immensely from his earliest designs -- quite rightly as others have noted -- and while a few in recent times have been stellar there is a clear indication from the more modern ones that he is simply operating at a different level from the glory days in my mind.

[Doug Ralston]

I cannot help but love PGA West Stadium, though I have never been there. I watch Q-School like most watch The Masters, with that kind of intensity. The Dye course MAKES Q-School a challenge par-excellance. It is an awesome challenge. And the PGA Pros have refused to go back, even though they played it without enhancement. I just love the feel of it when I see it.

I think Pete Dye will not be easily surpassed in has influence. The number of architects he 'spawned' is almost a biological proof to his training. Wanna be a great GCA? He is the Way and the Word  .

Doug

[Chris_Clouser]

Mark Fine,

By free pass I mean that it seems all of his work gets praised by many in the mass media as great and as a result much of his work overshadows more worthy efforts even in the same area.  My case in point is with the Indiana state golf ranking in Golfweek.  Two courses by Pete are significantly flawed when compared to others, even courses in the same county, yet they get praised simply because they are Dye courses.  I know several on here critique his work, but the masses seldomly do.

Tom Doak,

I agree he does deserve the accolades he has received and because of that is allowed some latitude, but courses should not automatically be considered great when they are average at best, even with the Dye name attached to them.  Even if he worked on the course a lot or it was one of his associates.  The promoters don't care as long as it has that name, nor do raters or media people.  And these are the ones that seem to think his work is without blemishes.

Pat Mucci,

I truly understand the significance to Pete and the context of his work and the timeframe of when he came on the scene.  As someone who has seen courses in Indiana that represent every era of his career I think I have a solid understanding of what he was doing over his career.  I actually have very little to complain about with his older courses, most of those were very solid if not spectacular.  The ones I see the most faults with are his more recent efforts that seem to capture all of the things that I dislike about modern design.  A case in point is the Kampen and Plum Creek course that are in the top 15 in the Indiana rankings for Golfweek.   

[Andy Troeger]

Chris,
You make a fair point about Kampen and I'm guessing Plum Creek. Still, two courses being ranked at the bottom of a state public listing doesn't necessary lend to jumping to the conclusion that the architect gets a free pass.

Big name architects all probably get a little bit of a bump by having their name on a course--Pete Dye included. The most overrated course on the New Mexico list (IMO of course) is by a guy few would recognize, however.

[Mike Wagner]

There's a reason most of his courses are described as "Dye-abolical."

I love playing his courses simply for the challenge.  Love PGA West Stadium - there's nothing like playing well and avoiding disaster at a Dye course. 

Does he get a free pass?  No way - he's daring, innovative, and helped create an entirely new level of GCA!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci,

I truly understand the significance to Pete and the context of his work and the timeframe of when he came on the scene.  As someone who has seen courses in Indiana that represent every era of his career I think I have a solid understanding of what he was doing over his career.  I actually have very little to complain about with his older courses, most of those were very solid if not spectacular.  The ones I see the most faults with are his more recent efforts that seem to capture all of the things that I dislike about modern design.  A case in point is the Kampen and Plum Creek course that are in the top 15 in the Indiana rankings for Golfweek. 

Chris,

I couldn't comment on Kampen and Plum Creek as I've never seen or played them.

Are they pure Pete Dye, or were they designed by associates in Pete's firm ?