[Doug Ralston]

This list says a lot about why I like the private golf scene in Chicago:

1. Cog Hill (No. 4 – Dubsdread), Lemont (m)
2. Eagle Ridge (The General), Galena (m)
3. Glen Club, Glenview (m)
4. Weaver Ridge, Peoria (m)
5. Thunderhawk, Beach Park (m)
6. Pine Meadow, Mundelein (m)
7. TPC Deere Run (m)
8. Cantigny, Wheaton (m)
9. Annbriar GC, Waterloo (m)
10. Stonewall Orchard, Grays Lake (m)
11. Harborside International GC (Starboard), Chicago (m)
12. Kokopelli, Marion (m)
13. Harborside International GC (Port), Chicago
14. Gateway National, Madison (m)*
15. Bolingbrook GC, Bolingbrook (m)*

Ho-hum.  I can't compare it to other big states, but this is a pretty underwhelming list, IMHO.

It's not all bad...but it isn't CA. From what I have played;

1. Cog Hill (No. 4 – Dubsdread), Lemont (m) ----Excited to see the changes.
2. Eagle Ridge (The General), Galena (m) --- Good, but kind of "goofy?"
3. Glen Club, Glenview (m) --- Fazio, baby! This is probably good at #3-ish public.
4. Weaver Ridge, Peoria (m) --- Pretty darn good, haven't been there in a long time though.
5. Thunderhawk, Beach Park (m) --- I really like Thunderhawk and have said so before on here.
6. Pine Meadow, Mundelein (m) --- PM has strong holes on the back. Mostly #14-#17. Otherwise bland.
7. TPC Deere Run (m) --- This is very good and should be #2.
8. Cantigny, Wheaton (m) --- Never crazy about it..."lakeside" nine is brutal.
9. Annbriar GC, Waterloo (m) ---Never played.
10. Stonewall Orchard, Grays Lake (m) --- Not very good.
11. Harborside International GC (Starboard), Chicago (m) --- Played it at least 5 times, can't remember any of the holes.
12. Kokopelli, Marion (m) - Never played.
13. Harborside International GC (Port), Chicago --- All I can remember is the green shaped like an achor.
14. Gateway National, Madison (m)* -- Actually pretty good, should count for MO though as its in STL.
15. Bolingbrook GC, Bolingbrook (m)* - Nice clubhouse!

Pat;

Have you seen Stone Creek in the southern part of the state [Makanda?]. Might make this list, I think.

Of course I will re-iterate that #1 in Kentucky being Cherry Blossom is absurd, and my belief that it's architect being on this site is the reason for that. Maybe Top 20, not Top 10. The others deserve some consideration of Top 5, though clearly he did NOT, as he said he would, send anyone to look at the Trail courses [DH, HC, ER] which some must be there. I accept that State rankings in little visited states will be askew, but please, this is too obvious a miss.

In Tennessee, i think given conditioning, it is hard to imagine Keith Foster's 'The Tennessean' is not the very best public design. What a fun course to play. Greystone is worth a though for TN too.

I too am glad to see Greywalls get some of it's due. That is an as yet underappreciated work IMHO.

Overall I think some improvement. And still State lists are just difficult. Too much to explore.

Doug

[John Foley]

Ron / John / Matt,

The NY list had me scratching my head a little also. I tried to get to Saratoga a few time over the last few years but every time I thought about the $125+ green fee it made the decision very easy. Someday i'll get ther, but not until the price gets adjusted.

Ravenwood is a very very solid course that could be better with some more movement on the greens, but the routing & shot's it asks / temps you to pull off make up for it a bit. Still, it's probably not 3rd. Greystone has what Ravewood needs, superb greens, but suffers from a stupid 18th hole. The rest of the course though is very very solid and IMHO the best public course in NY west of Cooperstown.

What more can I say about Leatherstocking. Jim Kennedy commented to me once about it really opened his eyes as to what quality design was and Paul Cowley said similar words. Finally got there last year (what I was waiting for, I have no idea) and it's more than everything you've heard. It's not perfect though (needs a few less tree's and ) but it is just a wonderful course with challange, scenery, ambiance and all the rest. Anyone who posts here shpuld get there play some golf, see the Hall of Fame and spend some time relaxing.

Ron as for west of Victor, I agree on Ivy Ridge - I like it a lot along w/ Arrowhead (how is that for a great 2-fer!) and Harvest Hill on my one tour was very good - need to get back. Have not seen Diamond Hawk. I'd have to think about how I would place them. I like Mark Twain, but it's defienetly a step behind almost everything else that has been listed here that I have played.

All in all,  Upstate / Central / Wester NY is a great place for very affordable high quality golf. Great place to be.

[Matt_Ward]

John F:

Agree about the cost dimension of upsate NY. For afordability I would also offer Stephen Kay's superb work at Links at Unionvale. For all the talk his work at Links of ND gets -- I see the NY layout as being the far better course. Completely flies below the radar screen.

Such a telling commentary on NY golf -- but the overall public scene is sooooooooooooo far below that of the private side.

Truly amazing indeed.

Jaeger:

Let's just say we agree to disagree.

I've played Ballyowen about 25 times over the years. It is well done and offers two distinct playing styles there -- you have the holes that abut the ponds and then you have the holes with their pseudo links-like look.

You mentioned Mark Twain and I agree it has its moments. But it's more towards the end of my top ten list -- if it grabs a spot -- then anywhere near the front of the line. I used to like Spook Rock a good bit but the recent addtions like Mansion Ridge, Centennial and Links at Unionvale have pushed it below for me.

Jaeger, Ballyowen is considerably better than any of the other courses at Crystal Springs. Not even close, in my mind.

Let's talk about the par-3 holes -- the 4th is not 200 yards from the tips nor is there a forced carry. Yes, the 6th is at that yardage but the shot dimension and what you face there is a good bit different than what you see with the others -- a front left pin and a back right one is quite demanding and fun. The 11th features an entirely different angle and the green is set a good bit different although you are right over H20. The 15th can vary dramaticallu upon tee location -- you can play it from the max back from the 12th tee or from a more forward position. If the pin is tight to the left then it's up to the player to decide how to handle the situation.

Jaeger, Ballyowen plays from a self-created desire to be something different. I can understand your take but wheny you add up the totality of all the holes and how Ruelwich worked the routing on the property you have a solid layout worthy of its position in NJ. The only better public I see in NJ is Twisted Dune and Ballyowen could be either #2 or for those classic die-hard types right behind ACCC.

Before leaving -- be sure to tell me what your top five in Jersey public golf is. I'd love to see your listing and reasoning.

Ron M:

The issue w Rulewich at SN is understanding how much you can handle and what tees allow for that type of comfort zone. Too many people on this site -- possibly not you and others -- will deride a facility but often times it stems from people trying to handle a course that's beyond one's means.

I played SN with all high handicappers -- above 20 and they each enjoyed the course. They played the layout at roughly 6,200 yards that day and there were avenues for them to advance forward without any major issue from a design standpoint.

The key I believe you are missing is that Rulewich excelled in getting a course on such a property is no smll feat indeed.

You also draw a connection between Rulewich and RTJ. No doubt Riger worked under the great man but his layouts offer a good bit more on the strategic side than I saw with plenty of RTJ layouts. I'm not canonizing SN for sainthood but given the woeful depth of NY public courses it's a good bit better than many have said.

Ron, I hear what you say -- but I don't see a remote connection between SN and Hiawatha. The latter is a scenic layout but lack any real design memorability - save for the unique cape closer at the 18th. Like I said before -- if you have not been to JN's Mansion Ridge or the work Larry Nelson did at Centennial you should play them.

Candidly, I see the work Stephen Kay did at Links at Unionvale as a big time miss from GW.


Steve S:

Well said on Vista Verde -- GW fumbled the ball badly on that one. It's not even in the top 25 in AZ -- surely they jest !

Kirk:

GW totally fumbled the ball on Colorado public golf.

If they include Cougar Canyon as #1 then how did the same panelists forget to visit nearby Canon City and play Engh's best public course to date, in my mind?

Bear Dance should be rated higher -- you also have a few of the better publics that are north of Denver that got left out -- Highland Meadows in Windsor is a solid candidate.

How GW placed Norman's Red Sky BELOW that of the companion TF at RSR is also a mystery of epic proportions, in my mind.

[Ken McGlynn]

These in-state lists are always tough.... highly criticized no matter which magazine does them.

So re the CA list, heck I have few quibbles - looks close enough to me.

Just curious - great things have been said about Soule Park (I haven't played there in almost 30 years so I don't know one way or the other)... where should it be inserted, if at all?

Here's the list:


24. Harding Park, San Francisco (c)

Tom

I'm completely mystified how Harding Park would be that far down the list. I must admit some bias having played it regularly as a kid and playing many a match in the City Championships there. With the renovations and greatly improved maintenance, isn't no. 24 a wee bit low?

[JNC Lyon]

Ron / John / Matt,

The NY list had me scratching my head a little also. I tried to get to Saratoga a few time over the last few years but every time I thought about the $125+ green fee it made the decision very easy. Someday i'll get ther, but not until the price gets adjusted.

Ravenwood is a very very solid course that could be better with some more movement on the greens, but the routing & shot's it asks / temps you to pull off make up for it a bit. Still, it's probably not 3rd. Greystone has what Ravewood needs, superb greens, but suffers from a stupid 18th hole. The rest of the course though is very very solid and IMHO the best public course in NY west of Cooperstown.

What more can I say about Leatherstocking. Jim Kennedy commented to me once about it really opened his eyes as to what quality design was and Paul Cowley said similar words. Finally got there last year (what I was waiting for, I have no idea) and it's more than everything you've heard. It's not perfect though (needs a few less tree's and ) but it is just a wonderful course with challange, scenery, ambiance and all the rest. Anyone who posts here shpuld get there play some golf, see the Hall of Fame and spend some time relaxing.

Ron as for west of Victor, I agree on Ivy Ridge - I like it a lot along w/ Arrowhead (how is that for a great 2-fer!) and Harvest Hill on my one tour was very good - need to get back. Have not seen Diamond Hawk. I'd have to think about how I would place them. I like Mark Twain, but it's defienetly a step behind almost everything else that has been listed here that I have played.

All in all,  Upstate / Central / Wester NY is a great place for very affordable high quality golf. Great place to be.

John,

I totally agree about Leatherstocking.  With a few trees gone (like any Upstate NY classic course) it would be tremendous.  As it is, every single hole on the course has strategy, interest, and charm.  I love the mountain holes across NY-80 (especially the two par threes, with 9 being a brute and 12 being a great short three), and you could not have a more dramatic and heroic finishing hole.  I haven't seen Bethpage Red, but I think Mike Cirba might be right about its proper ranking.

I also agree that Ravenwood could use a little more interest in the greens, but there are plenty of wild greens out there.  How about the crater green at the second?  The rolls on the third?  The neat two-tiered plateau green at nine?  The elevated green at sixteen?  These are all top notch.  

Ravenwood certainly does not match the green contours of Greystone for overall wildness.  However, I tend to think Ravenwood is the superior layout, for a couple of reasons.  The fives at Greystone are much weaker, particularly on the front.  Several of the holes (1, 8, 9, 17, 18) are just lacking in strategy.  Furthermore, the routing at Ravenwood is solid and much more walking-friendly, whereas Greystone's routing is a bit disjointed at times.  Greystone does not have any standout short fours (10 is good but not great, and it is more of a mid-length four at 350), while Ravenwood's three short fours are fantastic (especially 2 and 7).

Overall, I enjoy Greystone a great deal, but I believe Ravenwood is stronger for the reasons listed above.

Also, Mark Twain is a FANTASTIC layout.  Great layout, fun terrain on the side of a mountain.  Wild set of a greens, and a joy to walk, especially in the fall.

Matt Ward:

My theory about the public/private quality gap in NY is that it exists due to a common perception about the inferiority of public golf in NY communities.  Many golfers in the Rochester area seem to think all of the private courses in the area (several of which are mediocre to poor) are perferrable to the public courses simply because they are private courses.  In Elmira, I get the impression that golfers think the mangled Elmira Country Club is better than the muni at Mark Twain!  

Because of this view, people will not only be less likely to rate public courses highly, but they will also be less likely to build great public courses.  Why build an unrespected public course when you can build a highly respected private course?  I happen to think Leatherstocking is better than nearly every private course in Upstate NY, but it will never be ranked as highly as many of them.  In short, if someone is going to build a great course in New York (especially downstate) it will be private and not public.

One other note: my "ignorance" about Saratoga National will probably always exist due to the course's pricetag.  The same thing goes for the Turning Stone courses, which are only 30 minutes from where I go to school at Colgate but are courses that I will probably never play.  The low walkability at both sites is also a big turnoff for me.

Could you compare the set of threes at SN to the great par threes at Leatherstocking or the short fours (are there short fours at SN?) to the three great short fours at Ravenwood?

[Jason Topp]

This list says a lot about why I like the private golf scene in Chicago:

1. Cog Hill (No. 4 – Dubsdread), Lemont (m)
2. Eagle Ridge (The General), Galena (m)


Ho-hum.  I can't compare it to other big states, but this is a pretty underwhelming list, IMHO.

I have only played Numbers 1 and 2 but if the the General is number 2 in the state, Illinois public golf stinks.

[PThomas]

To all the Chicagoans here:

Where would Ravisloe fit in as a public course in Illinois?

i think it would fit in the top 10*


*truth-be-told dept:  i'm a former membr of Ravisloe

[Buck Wolter]

14. Gateway National, Madison (m)* -- Actually pretty good, should count for MO though as its in STL.

That's classic Chicagoan -- the list is Illinois not Chicago. Gateway Nat'l is Metro St. Louis but firmly East of the Mississippi.

I would put Gateway (Foster), Annbriar (Hurdzan and Fry) and probably Stonewolf (Nicklaus) in the Metro East ahead of the Glen Club which I thought was pretty ho hum.

[David Stamm]

These in-state lists are always tough.... highly criticized no matter which magazine does them.

So re the CA list, heck I have few quibbles - looks close enough to me.

Just curious - great things have been said about Soule Park (I haven't played there in almost 30 years so I don't know one way or the other)... where should it be inserted, if at all?

Here's the list:

1. Pebble Beach Golf Links, Pebble Beach (No. 7 c)
2. Spyglass Hill, Pebble Beach (No. 15 m)
3. Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz (No. 29 c)
4. Rustic Canyon, Moorpark (m)
5. Barona Creek, Lakeside (m)
6. PGA West (Stadium), La Quinta (m)
7. CordeValle, San Martin (m)
8. The Classic Club, Palm Desert (m)
9. Torrey Pines (South), San Diego (c)
10. Indian Wells Golf Resort (Players), Indian Wells (m)
11. DarkHorse, Auburn (m)
12. Coyote Moon, Truckee (m)
13. Links at Spanish Bay, Pebble Beach (m)
14. Indian Wells Golf Resort (Celebrity), Indian Wells (m)*
15. Whitehawk Ranch GC, Clio (m)
16. Pelican Hill GC (Ocean South), Newport Coast (m)
17. Maderas GC, Poway (m)*
18. Saddle Creek Resort, Copperopolis (m)
19. Eagle Falls GC, Indio (m)*
20. Pelican Hill (Ocean North), Newport Coast (m)
21. La Quinta Resort (Mountain), La Quinta (m)
22. Stevinson Ranch, Stevinson, (m)
23. Trump National, Rancho Palos Verdes (m)
24. Harding Park, San Francisco (c)
25. Olivas Links, Ventura (m)*

I would have Spyglass at 4 with Pasa taking it's spot and Rustic at third.

[Kyle Henderson]

These in-state lists are always tough.... highly criticized no matter which magazine does them.

So re the CA list, heck I have few quibbles - looks close enough to me.

Just curious - great things have been said about Soule Park (I haven't played there in almost 30 years so I don't know one way or the other)... where should it be inserted, if at all?

Here's the list:


24. Harding Park, San Francisco (c)

Tom

I'm completely mystified how Harding Park would be that far down the list. I must admit some bias having played it regularly as a kid and playing many a match in the City Championships there. With the renovations and greatly improved maintenance, isn't no. 24 a wee bit low?

I'm actually surprised Harding makes the list at all. Aside from it's abysmal putting surfaces, the course was solid but not spectacular with a couple of exceptional holes.

[Kyle Henderson]

1. Pebble Beach Golf Links, Pebble Beach (No. 7 c)
2. Spyglass Hill, Pebble Beach (No. 15 m)
3. Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz (No. 29 c)
4. Rustic Canyon, Moorpark (m)
5. Barona Creek, Lakeside (m)
6. PGA West (Stadium), La Quinta (m)
7. CordeValle, San Martin (m)
8. The Classic Club, Palm Desert (m)
9. Torrey Pines (South), San Diego (c)
10. Indian Wells Golf Resort (Players), Indian Wells (m)
11. DarkHorse, Auburn (m)
12. Coyote Moon, Truckee (m)
13. Links at Spanish Bay, Pebble Beach (m)
14. Indian Wells Golf Resort (Celebrity), Indian Wells (m)*
15. Whitehawk Ranch GC, Clio (m)
16. Pelican Hill GC (Ocean South), Newport Coast (m)
17. Maderas GC, Poway (m)*
18. Saddle Creek Resort, Copperopolis (m)
19. Eagle Falls GC, Indio (m)*
20. Pelican Hill (Ocean North), Newport Coast (m)
21. La Quinta Resort (Mountain), La Quinta (m)
22. Stevinson Ranch, Stevinson, (m)
23. Trump National, Rancho Palos Verdes (m)
24. Harding Park, San Francisco (c)
25. Olivas Links, Ventura (m)*

Didn't Trump proudly proclaim his course was better than Pebble?

Aside: Anyone interested in hitting Olivas links on the way to or from the King's Putter?

[Matt_Ward]

JNC Lyon:

I read your reasoning for the lack of quality public golf in NY and my rationale is a bit different. The people who had money had no interest in developing public play options for the masses. Think about the architects who engaged themselves in the early development for NY golf. With nearly no exceptions -- Bethpage being one of them plus a very tiny sample of others such as Leatherstocking, Mark Twain -- the chief and primary emphasis was on the private side.

If you look at other states in the nation -- public golf has taken off but only in recent times - as the masses have become more exposed to the game as compared to the classic era from which so much of the top tier privates were created in both NY and Pennsy. That's why places like Colorado are light years beyond The Empire State on the public side of the aisle.

JNC, I don't see the gap as a perception but a very clear reality.

The other factor holding back public golf of high caliber in NY is the associated costs (at least until recently) of quality land and all the red tape connected with it. Private golf can start at a far deeper price tag -- again until very recently -- and not have to deal with all of the assorted issues that public golf entails (costs to the taxpayers and the like, CCFAD's that need to pay annual property taxes and the like.

I don't see the issue in terms of respect as you articulated it -- I much rather believe the sheer economics encourage private golf and therefore engage the services of the big ticket people to come in and design their playgrounds.

My comment on ignorance stems from any person who labels a course and does so without having played it first. Roger Rulewich doesn't get much love on this site -- especially in his dealings with restoration matters with which I concur -- but some of his original designs -- mostly in association with RTJ -- such as the layouts of the Alabama Golf Trail, Metedeconk National, Ballyowen (his own name) and Saratoga National (ditto) may not be impressive from the standpoint of character and charm but they do press the player to play first rate shots time after time. Will you see a first rate par-3 and or short par-4 to the higher level of a few other aforementioned courses. Likely no. However, at Saratoga National you will see a high demand for shaping shots and for being quite proficient with the use of the driver and the short stick on plenty of holes.

As I said in my original response to the NY public scene -- I think there are people who would rate Leatherstocking the top public course in the Empire State -- ahead of even the Black at Bethpage. No doubt much of that stems from the core ingredients that make up Leatherstocking to the qualities of a course like BB.

Leatherstocking encourages the finesse play while adding a number of fun and challenging green sites -- BB is more of a fastball hitter's course -- and frankly I see the dearth of superb short par-4's there to be a chief weakness. Some will love the former -- and curse the latter. So much of that opinion no doubt is made up through the linkages people have with a course that dovetails to the nature of someone's game. Leatherstocking seduces the player -- BB provides stern tough love. Neither is wrong but clearly preferences are in play here.

Saratoga National is quite walkable if the option were available. If you take a good look at the site and what Rulewich needed to overcome in routing the course through that maze and at the same making sure playability wasn't sacrificed in the final end product I think his overall work there deserves high marks. Candidly, I don't see NY having a real strong #2 course to the likes of BB - there are a slew of contenders and likely one's preferences will be more personal than anything else but I dare say Saratoga National will likely be panned by many because of the high costs charged.

In regards to TS - I see the entire complex of courses there as a mass-produced effort. A few moments sprinkled but nothing that would make me venture all the way from Northern NJ to see them again.

I'll say this again for those who know little of it -- The Links at Unionvale in Lagrangeville is well worth playing. Stephen Kay excelled in giving public golf a place where shotmaking and costs are wonderfully aligned.

[Andy Troeger]

Kirk,
Do you think more Denver-area courses should make the list or was that just a general observation? I have played quite a few of the ones listed but not many publics around Denver--the bar is pretty high all things considered. A large portion of the Golf Digest state list is usually from the mountain region.

I think the same can be said of New Mexico--many of the better courses aren't in Albuquerque, although many are within 90 minutes.

[Chris_Clouser]

Andy,

Agree with you.  I also found it odd about Harrison Hills being #3.  The Langford holes are awesome, but the new Liddy holes just don't hold up.  Not to slight Tim with that comment, but there wasn't much to work with.  I wouldn't have Harrison in my person top 20 in the state, let alone #3.

I agree with you on Rock Hollow and Sultans Run.  Both should be way above Kampen, another course not my personal top 20, or perhaps 30. 

Two other things I find odd is the appeal of Prairie View.  I think it is a fine course and perhaps a top 10 to top 15 in the state, but no where near the #1 position where I see it all too often.  Raters must love that pristine conditioning, but it is way overpriced.  Also, how does Plum Creek get on this list.  The front nine is sooooo booorrrringg, with the exception of the 4th hole.  The back nine is better, but only when compared to the front.  It is full of forced carries and highly manufactured housing golf that is really the worst Dye course I have seen in the state.  I guess all things with the Dye name are considered good.

Oh, and I have to give a shout out to Tripp Davis and Cherokee Hills making the top 5 in Oklahoma.  A wonderful course that is very overlooked.

[Ronald Montesano]

Mark Twain:  great piece of property, even better greens.  Was it Matt who said that the property lacks character, or something along those lines?

I will get to Leatherstocking this June for an article I'm writing (along with Seven Oaks...JNC, you up for a game?  Oh, wait, you'll be out of school by then) and confirm in my mind that it is #2 behind BB.

Matt, you are correct about Saratoga National...I played it from the tips and it gave me all I could handle.  My mistake was exactly as you indicated, judging it from a tee deck that was beyond the optimal scoring one for me.  Had I gone from the 6700 yard one, I'm certain that I'd think more of it.  I am astounded, however, that people would even consider $$$$ in rating a course's quality.  It doesn't work the other way (course costs too little, can't be any good), so why should overpricing influence?

Hiawatha's 18th is ridiculous to me.  There is not enough landing area and the angle from tee to fairway/green is nearly right angled.  I agree on the Links at Union Vale...I'd like to get out there to see it.

Finally, nothing in the Adirondacks worth rating?

[Mike_Cirba]

The only hole worse than 18 at Hiawatha is 17 at Hiawatha, with a cart path about 5 yards right of the green sending slighly askew shots caroming into the unplayable fescue covered mounds.

[Damon Groves]

Tim:

Cordevalle doesn't baffle me; I thought it was pretty darn good.  Now I will NOT pay $300 to play it, or whatever it is... but the presence of #1 shows that price is not a criterion here.

I have not played Whitehawk Ranch.

I have also heard some VERY high praise for Soule Park.  There was a GCA outing there not all that long ago; and we are set to play there at KP (though I personally will miss that day). I remain very curious if this is an ommission, and if so, just how bad of one.


Anyone?

I don't really see how Soule Park would belong on the list. A fun course but I think Ojai Valley Inn is better. Also, while no bells or whistles and I certainly may be biased, buy I think my home course of Santa Anita is better than Soule Park. Not sure how Trump National gets on the list. While great views the course is pretty boring with very little strategic elements to it.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

Hold the phone buckeroo -- I never dissed Mark Twain -- but I would not have it in my personal top ten public for NY.

In regards to the #2 position -- there are quite a few courses that could lay claim to that position. I have mentioned a few of them already. If Montauk Downs has been upgraded and the greens able to roll without shoulder turns being needed -- I see it being a very solid layout but my last time there was several years ago and the conditioning element was still alive and well then.

Appreciate the candor in regards to the tees you played at SN. People who play the layout there from an appropriate yardage amount will find a far different course -- one playable but certainly challenging without being excessive.

Ron, I do believe certain people factor in cost with ratings.

Links at Unionvale flis considerably below the radar and provides a stellar design at affordable rates -- and it's within an easy ride from NYC -- about 80 or so miles away.

Finally, NY is likely the best state in the country for private layouts and likely one of the very worst for its public side. No state I have played can offer such a wide disparity.

[Mark Kinney]

Posted by: Steve_ Shaffer  Posted on: Yesterday at 05:13:03 pm  
Insert Quote  
With all the praise here, Vista Verde does NOT appear on the AZ list of top 25!!!

 
Steve,

you are correct.  Even though I have played VV only once, it is definitely better than about half of the courses on the list.
Maybe it suffers from the fact it has almost no publicity.  I have told friends about it, and these are guys that play ALOT of golf all over, and most have never even heard of it.

[Cliff Hamm]

Massachusetts...Anyone surprised that Dennis Pines is number 10 public.  Blackstone National and Waverly Oaks both dropped off. Opinions?

[Andy Troeger]

Andy,
Two other things I find odd is the appeal of Prairie View.  I think it is a fine course and perhaps a top 10 to top 15 in the state, but no where near the #1 position where I see it all too often.  Raters must love that pristine conditioning, but it is way overpriced.  Also, how does Plum Creek get on this list.  The front nine is sooooo booorrrringg, with the exception of the 4th hole.  The back nine is better, but only when compared to the front.  It is full of forced carries and highly manufactured housing golf that is really the worst Dye course I have seen in the state.  I guess all things with the Dye name are considered good.

Chris,
I don't think I'd blame it so much on Pete Dye as the list being fairly Indy-centric. French Lick and Warren are present but most of the others are within an hour of Indy. Mystic Hills likely would be a more deserving Dye course to list.

[Ronald Montesano]

Cirba, when I played Hiawatha, I stood on 17 tee tips with a 3 iron in my hand and could hardly swing it, as the tented party room was up against us.  I then proceeded to stiff it from about 220 yards.  18 absolutely drove me nuts, as I couldn't imagine how you could play the hole.

If we are doing rankings as a biathlon (course quality plus green fee equals worth), fine.  Somehow, I don't think that should figure in.  After all, no one ranks either Winged Foot higher or lower than Oak Hill East because of guest fees, correct?

New York's problem is that it is and always will be, two states.  Eliminate Westchester and Long Island and you have Oak Hill among the privates.  Even in western New York, always five to ten years behind national trends, we have way more private clubs than one would suspect we can support.  Our high-end public course bulge came from 2003-2007, about 10 years behind the mid-Atlantic region.  Until Arrowhead in 2003, our options were municipal courses for public access, with one formerly-private RTJ Sr. course as a high-ender.

I don't know that I'd call it one of the worst states for public options.  Since NY is not a northern golf destination state like Michigan or Wisconsin, it certainly can't use tourism as motivation for building golf courses and contiguous properties.  Nevertheless, I can't imagine that Maine, Rhode Island, Delaware, Vermont, New Hampshire, Missouri, Arkansas, North Dakota, South Dakota, Idaho, Washington, Utah, Alaska, Wyoming, and West Virginia would rank ahead of NY for public golf access, and that gets us a top 35 ranking for the Empire State.

My complaint is that western New York seems to have been ignored by this list.

[Matt_Ward]

Ron M:

Hold the phone -- again !

If you eliminate Westchester and Long Island you would have a Rees Jones course that can compete with the likes of Oak Hill East -- you may not have heard of it -- Olde Kinderhook -- just south of Albany. Gets little attention but an argument can easily be made that it's not only one of Rees Jones best courses but can easily make the top ten overall for NY.

I am well aware that is saying a lot but Olde Kinderhook provides a LOT.

Ron, is the worst when you pit the dimension of private v public within a given state. The gap is on the scale of the Grand Canyon. Even the so-called "surge" of public options that you mention pales against what other states were doing in this same period. I could pit Colorado public against the totality of NY and the depth is easily on the side of The Centennial State.

Ron, you close by saying western NY was ignored -- what courses do you think make the list. Are they better than the candidates I mentioned that were also left off -- e.g. Unionvale, Mansion Ridge, Centennial, et al ?

Cliff H:

Agreed.

Dennis Pines is a functional muni style course. It has its moments but it doesn't have the kind of consistency you see with BN and WO.

Cliff, the problem with state ratings is that too many times the value of a rater from Colorado or Montana is given the same weight as someone who lives and plays within the state and therefore is likely to see the courses on a much more consistent basis. Scaling the votes would help because frankly the results from a number of states leaves you and others, myself included, scratching one's head with amazement.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt W,

I think we are generally saying the same thing here.  I agree that there is a significant gap between private and public course quality in New York.  That fact is undeniable.  However, one reason it exists (along with the cost/regulation/tax issues you mentioned, which are particularly prevalent in New York) is due to a perception about the inferiority of public golf IN GENERAL in places like Rochester or Buffalo or NYC.  This may exist because private courses have always been superior in New York, and this creates a chicken-or-the-egg argument.  However, the perception still exists today and greatly affects the New York public golf scene.

Regarding your comments about Saratoga National:  I certainly can't make specific judgments because I have not played the course.  However, a course that has no standout holes and holds up only as a consistently stern test has little appeal to me.  These types of courses represent the problems of many modern courses.  That is, architects are concerned only with protecting par (at courses that will never host professional tournaments) instead of building great golf holes.  You can certainly do both (Bethpage is a shining example), but a course that acts simply as a tough test is not architecturally interesting, nor is it any fun for anyone over a five handicap.  A demand for shot-shaping is certainly something I look for in a golf course, but you will also find similar demands at other courses on the NY list (particularly at Leatherstocking, where golfers have to manage shot shapes on nearly every hole because of the rumpled fairways).

I haven't played enough public courses in other states, but is New York really the one of the worst in the union for public golf?  Look at the lists for Illinois or Texas, with the former being a private-heavy state similar to New York.  I haven't played golf West of the Mississippi, but I would love see some of the publics in Colorado, Montana, or Oregon just to name three states.

Ron M,

I agree that greens fees should not be factored into the rankings.  Leatherstocking is much expensive than Greystone, Ravenwood, or Mark Twain, but it certainly ranks well ahead of all three.  I'm just saying I have no intention of playing SN or the Turning Stone courses so that I can rate them.

Western NY is always ignored within New York State--it isn't exclusive to golf.  The public golf North of NYC is very solid as a whole.  Furthermore, don't underestimate the private side.  Oak Hill West, Crag Burn, Monroe, Teugega, CCB and CCR are all very solid and can compete for a top 25 spot (with the first three being very deserving).  They may not compete with GCGC or NGLA (IMO neither does Oak Hill East), but they are solid nonetheless.  The gap between public and private in Western NY is not as great as the one downstate, but it is still there.

[Cliff Hamm]

Matt...thanks for the response..It's been a long time since I played Dennis Pines but what I remember is a tough course with no character. Maybe, a bit long, maybe a bit tight, quite tough but no fun.  Both Blackstone and Waverly are fun.  I would also throw Captains, Butter Brook, Kettle Brook, Olde Barnstable, Achusnet River Valley, among others into the mix above Dennis Pines.

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