[Ronald Montesano]

I had no desire to wade through 7 pages of thoughts and opinions to find out if anyone else wondered how Saratoga National could be called the second-best public-access course in the Empire State.  Honestly, did they mail this one in?  Saratoga is pretty and challenging, but #2 it certainly is not.  It baffles me that there is not one course west of Victor in the mix.  I have to wonder how east-heavy the New York staff of raters is...

[George Freeman]

I was surprised that Bandon Crossings didn't make the list for Oregon (of 10 courses listed).  I'm fairly certain they have gotten enough raters to qualify, however they may not have at the time these lists were compiled...

I really enjoyed the course, which is saying a lot considering the other three courses I played that week

[JNC Lyon]

Ronald,

I was about to post a similar topic.  

Personally, I was very intrigued by several things about the New York State list.  First, how did Bethpage Red fall from 2 to 8 in a year?  Was the condition poor, did other courses improve themselves?  I can't see how this is possible.

Second, I too wondered about Saratoga National being ranked this highly.  I have never played it (and it is doubtful that I ever will at $185 per round), but I have heard from several sources that it is WAY overrated.  From the air it appears almost unplayable.  How can be ranked ahead of a course like Leatherstocking?

Third, I was very excited to see Ravenwood and Greystone from the Rochester area ranked on the list, with Ravenwood at #3.  Again, it is hard to believe Ravenwood (which has a great routing and short fours but multiple mediocre holes) could be ranked ahead of Leatherstocking, but I am glad to see that both of these courses getting recognition.  Maybe John Foley can weigh in as well, as Greystone is his home course.

Fourth, what courses west of Victor would make this list?  Mill Creek, maybe?  I haven't played a lot of public golf in Buffalo, and I've heard good things about Arrowhead and Ivy Ridge, but would they make the top fifteen?  I was impressed at the number of Upstate NY courses high on the list, and they certainly outweighed the downstate layouts.

Generally, it is frustrating to see Leatherstocking at number 5 behind three moderns.  I plan to play Hiawatha next week, but I doubt it will match up to Leatherstocking's classic layout.

[Andy Troeger]

Pretty sure Bandon Crossings was on the list last year--chances are it just fell off this time around.

State rankings seem to be even tougher than the national ones. The top half of the New Mexico list is about right, but Santa Ana should make it somewhere. Sonoma Ranch at #7 is a stretch.

In Indiana, putting Kampen ahead of Rock Hollow with Sultan's Run nowhere to be found is odd to me.

I agree with some of Matt Ward's comments about the Colorado list from the other thread. Four Mile Ranch should be top ten at least and Red Sky Norman is better than Fazio (by quite a bit).

When you have a minimum of 6 raters (I think that's what Brad said, apologies if I'm wrong), you're going to have courses that get a couple unusually high or low ratings from time to time that skew the numbers. So it goes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ronald,

I was about to post a similar topic.  

Personally, I was very intrigued by several things about the New York State list.  First, how did Bethpage Red fall from 2 to 8 in a year?  Was the condition poor, did other courses improve themselves?  I can't see how this is possible.

Second, I too wondered about Saratoga National being ranked this highly.  I have never played it (and it is doubtful that I ever will at $185 per round), but I have heard from several sources that it is WAY overrated.  From the air it appears almost unplayable.  How can be ranked ahead of a course like Leatherstocking?

Third, I was very excited to see Ravenwood and Greystone from the Rochester area ranked on the list, with Ravenwood at #3.  Again, it is hard to believe Ravenwood (which has a great routing and short fours but multiple mediocre holes) could be ranked ahead of Leatherstocking, but I am glad to see that both of these courses getting recognition.  Maybe John Foley can weigh in as well, as Greystone is his home course.

Fourth, what courses west of Victor would make this list?  Mill Creek, maybe?  I haven't played a lot of public golf in Buffalo, and I've heard good things about Arrowhead and Ivy Ridge, but would they make the top fifteen?  I was impressed at the number of Upstate NY courses high on the list, and they certainly outweighed the downstate layouts.

Generally, it is frustrating to see Leatherstocking at number 5 behind three moderns.  I plan to play Hiawatha next week, but I doubt it will match up to Leatherstocking's classic layout.

JNC_Lyon,

I'd ask Ronald a similar question.   Which course(s) west of Rochester would he think are being slighted here?

In the case of Leatherstocking, I'd have it number 2 in the state's public courses, and it makes my Top 100 Classic, as well.   It's brilliant.

I do plan to get out to the Red course soon, as well, if only to keep Kyle Harris from nagging me any further. 

[PCCraig]

How about Erin Hills behind the Irish Course at Kohler? (I think at #5 in the state?) Never been to Erin Hills but everyone always says great things about it.

[Ronald Montesano]

Get the raters to Diamond Hawk, Harvest Hill, Glen Oak, Ivy Ridge and Arrowhead.  If they play all five (honestly, within 30 minutes of each other) and decide that they are numbers 16-20, fine.  Toss in Mark Twain in Elmira, too.  Saratoga National is not worthy of its lofty status, but it is a top 15.  I always argue that Hiawatha is pretty but not great, yet it and Saratoga always receive these tremendous rankings.  I like both courses, but I think that there are stronger ones in NY.  No doubt Leatherstocking rates higher among GCA buffs.

[jeffwarne]

Ronald,

I was about to post a similar topic.  

Personally, I was very intrigued by several things about the New York State list.  First, how did Bethpage Red fall from 2 to 8 in a year?  Was the condition poor, did other courses improve themselves?  I can't see how this is possible.

Second, I too wondered about Saratoga National being ranked this highly.  I have never played it (and it is doubtful that I ever will at $185 per round), but I have heard from several sources that it is WAY overrated.  From the air it appears almost unplayable.  How can be ranked ahead of a course like Leatherstocking?

 


Generally, it is frustrating to see Leatherstocking at number 5 behind three moderns.  I plan to play Hiawatha next week, but I doubt it will match up to Leatherstocking's classic layout.

Isn't it a good thing for the discerning, value oriented fans of classic architecture that the masses are directed by such rankings  towards the pricier ,less charming modern courses?
This site has exposed too many hidden gems already. Let's save a few

[Ronald Montesano]

good point...leatherstocking sucks.

[Tom Huckaby]

These in-state lists are always tough.... highly criticized no matter which magazine does them.

So re the CA list, heck I have few quibbles - looks close enough to me.

Just curious - great things have been said about Soule Park (I haven't played there in almost 30 years so I don't know one way or the other)... where should it be inserted, if at all?

Here's the list:

1. Pebble Beach Golf Links, Pebble Beach (No. 7 c)
2. Spyglass Hill, Pebble Beach (No. 15 m)
3. Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz (No. 29 c)
4. Rustic Canyon, Moorpark (m)
5. Barona Creek, Lakeside (m)
6. PGA West (Stadium), La Quinta (m)
7. CordeValle, San Martin (m)
8. The Classic Club, Palm Desert (m)
9. Torrey Pines (South), San Diego (c)
10. Indian Wells Golf Resort (Players), Indian Wells (m)
11. DarkHorse, Auburn (m)
12. Coyote Moon, Truckee (m)
13. Links at Spanish Bay, Pebble Beach (m)
14. Indian Wells Golf Resort (Celebrity), Indian Wells (m)*
15. Whitehawk Ranch GC, Clio (m)
16. Pelican Hill GC (Ocean South), Newport Coast (m)
17. Maderas GC, Poway (m)*
18. Saddle Creek Resort, Copperopolis (m)
19. Eagle Falls GC, Indio (m)*
20. Pelican Hill (Ocean North), Newport Coast (m)
21. La Quinta Resort (Mountain), La Quinta (m)
22. Stevinson Ranch, Stevinson, (m)
23. Trump National, Rancho Palos Verdes (m)
24. Harding Park, San Francisco (c)
25. Olivas Links, Ventura (m)*

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Never been to Erin Hills but everyone always says great things about it.

Believe me...not everyone has great things to say about Erin Hills.

[PCCraig]

Never been to Erin Hills but everyone always says great things about it.

Believe me...not everyone has great things to say about Erin Hills.

I take that back then, sorry. I guess it is because I have heard so much about it in general. I still hope to make it up there this summer.

[tlavin]

This list says a lot about why I like the private golf scene in Chicago:

1. Cog Hill (No. 4 – Dubsdread), Lemont (m)
2. Eagle Ridge (The General), Galena (m)
3. Glen Club, Glenview (m)
4. Weaver Ridge, Peoria (m)
5. Thunderhawk, Beach Park (m)
6. Pine Meadow, Mundelein (m)
7. TPC Deere Run (m)
8. Cantigny, Wheaton (m)
9. Annbriar GC, Waterloo (m)
10. Stonewall Orchard, Grays Lake (m)
11. Harborside International GC (Starboard), Chicago (m)
12. Kokopelli, Marion (m)
13. Harborside International GC (Port), Chicago
14. Gateway National, Madison (m)*
15. Bolingbrook GC, Bolingbrook (m)*

Ho-hum.  I can't compare it to other big states, but this is a pretty underwhelming list, IMHO.

[Tim Leahy]

These in-state lists are always tough.... highly criticized no matter which magazine does them.

So re the CA list, heck I have few quibbles - looks close enough to me.

Just curious - great things have been said about Soule Park (I haven't played there in almost 30 years so I don't know one way or the other)... where should it be inserted, if at all?

Here's the list:

1. Pebble Beach Golf Links, Pebble Beach (No. 7 c)
2. Spyglass Hill, Pebble Beach (No. 15 m)
3. Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz (No. 29 c)
4. Rustic Canyon, Moorpark (m)
5. Barona Creek, Lakeside (m)
6. PGA West (Stadium), La Quinta (m)
7. CordeValle, San Martin (m)
8. The Classic Club, Palm Desert (m)
9. Torrey Pines (South), San Diego (c)
10. Indian Wells Golf Resort (Players), Indian Wells (m)
11. DarkHorse, Auburn (m)
12. Coyote Moon, Truckee (m)
13. Links at Spanish Bay, Pebble Beach (m)
14. Indian Wells Golf Resort (Celebrity), Indian Wells (m)*
15. Whitehawk Ranch GC, Clio (m)
16. Pelican Hill GC (Ocean South), Newport Coast (m)
17. Maderas GC, Poway (m)*
18. Saddle Creek Resort, Copperopolis (m)
19. Eagle Falls GC, Indio (m)*
20. Pelican Hill (Ocean North), Newport Coast (m)
21. La Quinta Resort (Mountain), La Quinta (m)
22. Stevinson Ranch, Stevinson, (m)
23. Trump National, Rancho Palos Verdes (m)
24. Harding Park, San Francisco (c)
25. Olivas Links, Ventura (m)*

Cordevalle and Whitehawk Ranch baffle me. I have yet to find anyone who really liked Cordevalle or would pay the high green fees there out of their own pocket. I have played Whitehawk ranch and could name at least 10 courses not on the list that are better public mountain style courses.

[PCCraig]

This list says a lot about why I like the private golf scene in Chicago:

1. Cog Hill (No. 4 – Dubsdread), Lemont (m)
2. Eagle Ridge (The General), Galena (m)
3. Glen Club, Glenview (m)
4. Weaver Ridge, Peoria (m)
5. Thunderhawk, Beach Park (m)
6. Pine Meadow, Mundelein (m)
7. TPC Deere Run (m)
8. Cantigny, Wheaton (m)
9. Annbriar GC, Waterloo (m)
10. Stonewall Orchard, Grays Lake (m)
11. Harborside International GC (Starboard), Chicago (m)
12. Kokopelli, Marion (m)
13. Harborside International GC (Port), Chicago
14. Gateway National, Madison (m)*
15. Bolingbrook GC, Bolingbrook (m)*

Ho-hum.  I can't compare it to other big states, but this is a pretty underwhelming list, IMHO.

It's not all bad...but it isn't CA. From what I have played;

1. Cog Hill (No. 4 – Dubsdread), Lemont (m) ----Excited to see the changes.
2. Eagle Ridge (The General), Galena (m) --- Good, but kind of "goofy?"
3. Glen Club, Glenview (m) --- Fazio, baby! This is probably good at #3-ish public.
4. Weaver Ridge, Peoria (m) --- Pretty darn good, haven't been there in a long time though.
5. Thunderhawk, Beach Park (m) --- I really like Thunderhawk and have said so before on here.
6. Pine Meadow, Mundelein (m) --- PM has strong holes on the back. Mostly #14-#17. Otherwise bland.
7. TPC Deere Run (m) --- This is very good and should be #2.
8. Cantigny, Wheaton (m) --- Never crazy about it..."lakeside" nine is brutal.
9. Annbriar GC, Waterloo (m) ---Never played.
10. Stonewall Orchard, Grays Lake (m) --- Not very good.
11. Harborside International GC (Starboard), Chicago (m) --- Played it at least 5 times, can't remember any of the holes.
12. Kokopelli, Marion (m) - Never played.
13. Harborside International GC (Port), Chicago --- All I can remember is the green shaped like an achor.
14. Gateway National, Madison (m)* -- Actually pretty good, should count for MO though as its in STL.
15. Bolingbrook GC, Bolingbrook (m)* - Nice clubhouse!

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Cordevalle doesn't baffle me; I thought it was pretty darn good.  Now I will NOT pay $300 to play it, or whatever it is... but the presence of #1 shows that price is not a criterion here.

I have not played Whitehawk Ranch.

I have also heard some VERY high praise for Soule Park.  There was a GCA outing there not all that long ago; and we are set to play there at KP (though I personally will miss that day). I remain very curious if this is an ommission, and if so, just how bad of one.


Anyone?

[Matt_Ward]

The New York listing is an interesting one because it demonstrates just how mediocre the overall depth of public golf is in the Empire States.

I have played Saratoga National and I salute Roger Rulewich for the first rate effort he created there. For people to opine on the nature of the course simply from sky photos and the like speaks volumes on their own ignorance.

Saratoga carries a high price tag -- very high -- and they always seek to capitalize on their location during the prime days of horse season. There was plenty of wetlands issues to overcome and Rulewich did a much better job with the NY course than what he did at Ballyowen in NJ -- and I say that with all respect to the Garden State layout.

Is Saratoga National the 2nd best public?

Tough call depending upon one's best but from all the ones I have played in NY I would not dismiss it as being completely misplaced. Leatherstocking deserves a good bit more attention than it received but overall the quality of NY public golf is considerably lower than such states like Colorado and Nevada in terms of overall depth.

Bethpage Black and it's companion Red layout are clearly top contenders but places like Mansion Ridge and Centennial could easily have been included in the listing and certainly either of them is beyond the Links of Hiawatha Landing. Frankly, all of the courses at Turning Stone really turn me off -- they are well manicured but just a boring version of quality golf architecture. Montauk Downs deserves a higher placement as well.

I've said this many times before -- the totality of public golf for NY and Pennsy is in direct relationship to the sheer greatness you find with both states on the private side. Truly amazing that such a spread could exist but it does.

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt,
I don't avoid Rulewich courses, but I can't recommend them to anyone but a talented and consistent striker of the ball.  Fox Hopyard and Saratoga National are two great examples of his work.  From any set of tees, take your eyes off the prize and you are in trouble.  He doesn't give much room for error laterally and tends to like to punish the overhitter.  If you go over greens, you suffer a brutal penalty.  If you miss fairways by a little, you suffer.  He also uses lots of deep and wide bunkers to frame his putting surfaces.  Since he is the de facto stepchild of Trent Jones, he took a lot of what Trent did in the middle part of his career (before he got gentler) and continues to use that brutal "monster" philosophy.  Saratoga National makes for those great bird-level shots for magazines that you mention, but get on the ground with it and you realize how challenging the courses are.  I guess I would place Hiawatha and Saratoga around 7 and 8, not in the top five where they reside.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

To all the Chicagoans here:

Where would Ravisloe fit in as a public course in Illinois?

[Kirk Gill]

The thing that strikes me about the Colorado list is that Fossil Trace and, to a degree, Bear Dance are the only courses in the top 10 that are anywhere near Denver. Anybody think that there are any other Denver-area courses that might merit cracking the top 10? Perhaps Common Grounds will make it in next year's issue........

[Pete_Pittock]

George and Andy,
  Last year's Oregon rankings had Bandon Crossings at #7. It dropped out along with the Fought course at Reserve Vineyards (my home course). Replacements were Tetherow and Langdon Farms. I like all four courses and agree with the changes.
  Crossings would probably get mixed reviews while Langdon has really upgraded its maintenance.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

With all the praise here, Vista Verde does NOT appear on the AZ list of top 25!!!

[Jaeger Kovich]

I agree with what most have said about public golf in new york, or the tri-state area for that matter... the private clubs just dominate... I agree the Black an Red should be #1 and #2, and the courses up at Turning Stone shouldn't have that many on the list, but because they have a few courses that are right around the corner from each other, they are easily accessible to raters.

Someone else mentioned Mark Twain in Elmira... what a great little hidden gem! Played it this fall and was in fabulous condition, its just hard to get to, in the middle of nowhere, but I would love to see this one and maybe a course like Spook Rock on the list, nor would I object to finding Centenial on the list either.

Matt - you mentioned Ballyowen. I cant understand for the life of me what this course is doing #2 in Jersey. I've been there 2x now, and I just find the other Crystal Springs courses so much better. Ballyowen is trying to be something that its not... a links course. Next time you go there pop over to the back tees on all the par 3's... its the same exact shot on each one, 200 yard forced carry, so you can score that a 0 in variety. Also the ponds in the middle of this "links" are just so incredibly out of place. Don't get me wrong, it has some fun holes, but I think its pretty clear that raters are blinded by the artificial look of the course with all the tall grass blowing in the wind and that stupid bagpiper who shows up in the afternoon!

[Mark Smolens]

To all the Chicagoans here:

Where would Ravisloe fit in as a public course in Illinois?

Obviously as a career trunk slammer I have a much higher opinion of the quality of public golf in Chicago than Mr. Lavin.  I suppose if I was hanging at Olympia, Beverly and the Dunes Club on a regular basis my perception might be different.

Don't see Rav coming in very high on this list -- I fear that the conditioning will suffer (but of course that remains to be seen).  I'd definitely place it ahead of Bolingbrook but I'd be hard pressed to agree that it's better than many of the others.

I think Pat C's panning of Cantigny is not well warranted.  Not sure if that's based on a large sample or if he suffered a bad experience on a couple of visits.  I've been there quite a few times in the past couple of seasons and enjoyed it  a lot -- the conditioning which used to be an issue has been pretty much resolved since they hosted the Publinx.  I also like most of the holes at Stonewall Orchard (but for the stupid mound in front of the green on 18 which kicks balls into the hazard -- could be the stupidest placement of a mound I've ever seen).

I would have Village Links of G.E. (which some of this site apparently do not like), Orchard Valley and Shepard's Crook on this list, and all of them above Bolingbrook.  I don't even have Bolingbrook in my top 30 (Prairie Landing, Oak Grove, Heritage Bluffs, heck even Foxford Hills and Ruffled Feathers would be above Bolingbrook).

[Mark Smolens]

With all the praise here, Vista Verde does NOT appear on the AZ list of top 25!!!

Steve, I have a number of friends in the Valley who don't like VV, claiming that it is "too hard."  I see it as one of the most fun public course excursions in the Valley, but different strokes I guess. . .

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