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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2009, 10:20:53 AM »
Jeff,

16% prefer playing about 6800. Making the tips too much shorter than that reduces the attractiveness of the course to them, plus the 3% of players who prefer something over 7000.  Those are the stats I have for the US.  I agree that the culture is for length here, and also, we have more new courses that can accomodate that, or perhaps "sell" that notion that longer is better.

I agree and often switch tees, but I don't care what my handicap is as I don't play competitively.

As a point of interest, if there are any people selling club memberships out there, I would like to hear from them if length and length options has sold or unsold a membership?  Golfers I think eventually end up playing where they will feel comfortable (and their wives, kids will if a family membership) and I wonder if the single tee system would keep a membership at an all male, similar level of capability?

Side Story - I agreed to ride around with a membership director years ago when one of my courses was under construction.  He was giving a tour to a gentleman who did have a few grey hairs, which made him assume he wanted to see the course from the senior tees.  After about 7 holes, the guys says 'I'm 50 dammit, quit showing me the senior tees!"

I don't think the multiple tee issue is completely black and white - I am sure there are a small percentage of courses that would do just as well or better with fewer teeing grounds highly tailored to the predominant membership, whether seniors, women, good players, etc.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2009, 11:00:01 AM »
Par can be changed for the members on par 4.5's, thus eliminating a tee and increasing par.

There are a lot of ways to skin the cat.

Coore and Crenshaw did a good job of this at Cuscowilla, with both #9 and #18 playing as par 5s from the back of the back tee.  From a bit closer, they are both ballbuster par 4s.

David Druzisky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2009, 11:49:58 AM »
Great stuff all!  I can smell Jeff's brain working and I am up wind from TX.  It is Friday and is this all light pre NCAA Tournament fare or what?  (Arizona beats Utah today BTW)

I will throw some thoughts in on this - some for fun.

1.  Why limit variety by limiting tee location?  If you can afford to build them, maintain them, and fit them appropriately into the design provide more tees or teeing area so the course set up can vary a bit day to day.  As much as I like and need alternate routes of play to enjoy my round, it is also compelling to determine how to navigate my way that day based on yardage to the hazards.  That is what they basically did at Torrey.  It is a great and simple way to add variety without having to create wide or multiple fairways and elements to establish landing areas.  (per Jeff's point)

I recently worked with a club that had a mish mash of tee types.  Some were borderline runway RTJ style tees.  Of course most were not.  The course is basically flat and tight due to lack of overall property but still at 6,800 yds.  (Private club with a large number of good players.)  With this there is limited chance of using angles off the tees etc.  After spending some time on it I really began to get an appreciation for what the runway tees offered.  Variety in set up.  On that course because it is on flat ground the hazzards in the landing areas can then be placed at distances that on a daily basis either come into play or not depending on tee set-up.  The key with the tees is only to get the scale right and then tied in to the surrounding grade attractively and broad to be subtle.

2.  Can in not be said that the handicapping system should take care of this?  While multiple tees only address the distance difference between players of differing abilities, the handicapping system is supposed to take yardage and skill into account.  TR touched on this in his reply.  Like many other aspects of the game we seem stuck on working around specific structure and beliefs in what is acceptable or required standard.  Access to handicapping is a joke for the golfer that plays an average number of rounds.  Not everyone wants to join a club - they do not play at the same course and do not like commitments.  Handicapping has not kept up with the advent of the computer or internet.

3.  Mix it up.  Apply both on courses.  Get creative and make it work one way on certain holes and the other way on others.  I think the formula gets a little repetitive at times.

4.  Charge higher greens fees for the farther back you play! ::)  Heck, there is so much additional cost applied to "Championship" length designs and if only 3% are playing it (probably another 5% of nuckleheads that shouldn't be) why make the rest of us make up the difference in the greens fees needed to pay for it!

5.  While we are at it, make the club and ball makers pay for everything built beyond 6,800 yards.  We are simply justifying their new equipment and thus helping them sell more of it. ;)

6.  The back tees when possible should be no more than a pimple somewhere.  The forward tee when possible should just be some flat area of the leading edge of the fairway.  The markers can be removed during events and built at virtually no cost.  (this is not a unique concept - I hope).

7.  When and if we come out of this current golf development depression here in the US I truly believe it is going to be very difficult to find enough land to build anything more than 6,800 yard courses.  This may result in less tees.  Unfortunately, width may be hard to come by to facilitate all of those alternate routes of play we all like as well.  We were on a trend to more core courses - even in developments - so with good design creativity maybe it will balance out a bit.

8.  There is no doubt a high percentage of golfers feel obligated to par.  It has become a misunderstood benchmark in a game that should have few such benchmarks other than personal accomplishments.

BTW - Any architect worth his salt can make 2nd shots on par 5's interesting.  But, you can tell they often do not spend enough time on it.

DbD

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2009, 01:38:46 PM »
I don't know about acceptable, but a common situation I see on courses in MN is the presence of large crossing hazards like marshes or environmentally sensitive wetlands that can't be gotten around. There's no way across but to carry the ball at least 100 yards either in the air or in your pocket on your way across the marsh to the next set of tees  ;).

I'm not saying such locations are ideal, but I've never seen any course deal with it in any other way than several sets of tees.
Modern restrictions make this scenario more likely, and that's why a Flexible Rating System should be standard.

Bill,
The par-4/5 is a useful tool.
Gives the average guy a manageable short-5, while providing a stern par-4 for the chosen few.

There is no reason the par-4 could be longer than the par-5!


« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 01:40:23 PM by Tony Ristola »

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2009, 03:15:23 PM »
 ;D :D ;)


Hey guys , we had some good repartee on this subject  as to multiple tees
 in "God send or God Awful"   thread   , check it out

Kyle Harris

Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2009, 04:00:34 PM »
I appreciate the discussion so far.

It seems a few people are tripped up in the thought of an existing course with only one set of tee blocks. This is not where I'm head, but instead in a whole new golf course *designed* to be played from one set of tee blocks.

A few others seemed tripped up on the assumption that flexibility in the setup would not be designed. I'm not advocating fewer areas on which to place tees but simple 1 or 2 sets of tees for a course.

Think of a hole with a significant down slope from the tee until about 230 yards away from the tee. The lesser player could use the down slope to get an extra 30-50 yards of roll while the longer player would simply blast over the topography. Then place a bunker or other hazard at 280 to compound the long player. The short player is ignoring this hazard while the long player must either challenge it, or lay up next to the short player.

Furthermore, how can one design a hole where the lower trajectory of the lesser player is actually an advantage of the high and far shot? I am forever amazed with people that can hit wedges 150 yards... and my first question is "why?" How can we make the better player dial down the yardage and high trajectory such that the design brings their game to match that of the lesser player?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2009, 05:20:03 PM »
How can we make the better player dial down the yardage and high trajectory such that the design brings their game to match that of the lesser player?

Give Obama another couple've months ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2009, 11:32:54 PM »



We had some good thoughts on this in August  and for my money less is definitely more Can't stand the clutter as I get older LOL   Have yet to see really good integration of the multiple tee box designs intothe golf course   I personally like only two tee boxes per hole if I had my druthers

Mike_Cirba

Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2009, 12:34:01 AM »



We had some good thoughts on this in August  and for my money less is definitely more Can't stand the clutter as I get older LOL   Have yet to see really good integration of the multiple tee box designs intothe golf course   I personally like only two tee boxes per hole if I had my druthers

If it were up to me, you'd have your druthers, Struthers!  ;D

Seriously, couldn't agree more.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2009, 04:52:40 AM »



We had some good thoughts on this in August  and for my money less is definitely more Can't stand the clutter as I get older LOL   Have yet to see really good integration of the multiple tee box designs intothe golf course   I personally like only two tee boxes per hole if I had my druthers

Archie

Its more than just a integration issue.  With multiple tees archies are concentrating length of holes rather other aspects of design which are more important such awkward angles, temptation etc.  The idea of a significant proportion of courses needing tees at the 6800 and above mark is ridiculous no mater what any pole results suggest.  The truth of the matter is that an overwhelming percentage of single figure cappers can be challenged by a well designed course at 6000 yards.  In the end, I am afraid that if archies don't want to see courses extended by untold number of tee boxes then they will have speak a bit louder.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2009, 08:29:29 AM »
Kyle,

I haven't read any posts other than your opening post, but, more tees is a concession to par and the medal play game.

Golfers used to tee up within one club length of the cup on the hole just played when teeing off to play the next hole.

It took about 100 years before that distance was increased to two club lengths.

From there, the tee became more removed and evolved into multiple tees in an attempt to accomodate every level of golfer.

If you were playing strictly match play, would you care where you teed off from ?

TEPaul

Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2009, 09:30:42 AM »
“And none of this has anything to do with par - I doubt the average golfer feels entitled to par.


Mr. Jeffrey Brauer, Sir:

You say none of this has anything to do with par? Really!? Then how do you explain the following?



“I still have the question as to the overall value of limited starting points, given its basically a math problem - total length divided by average shot length = number of shots (excluding duffs and putts)  i.e. for a 180 hitter, a par 72 should be no longer than 36 x 180 (6480) and probably less, etc.”


What you have done with that statement is to try to reduce any golfer’s natural distance inequality to some mathematical solution of forced or artificial EQUALITY via architecture (multiple tee lengths).

I see exactly what Kyle Harris is suggesting-----eg maintain within architecture the one and only physical differentiation amongst golfers----the maximum distance anyone can hit the ball------and instead of skewing that NATURAL physical differentiation by multiple tee lengths just design for it “through the green.”

If that were done then the game is reduced back to a “currency” that is not only completely natural but is, in fact, the very essence of the structure of the game of golf-----the amount of STROKES one must take to get from one point to another even with their best and LONGEST shots!

Doing anything else is, as you say, just some mathematical attempt at a mathematical solution to this one and only physical inequality amongst golfers via yardage adjustments (a form of handicapping) to create a form of equality where it never has and never will exist.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2009, 10:39:58 AM »
Good morning Mr. Paul, with a tip of the hat to Mr. Mucci,

I hope this morn finds you and the missus well.  I have perused your missive of an hour ago, and do beg to differ somewhat.  I would never say you are incorrect, given your superior mental faculites (and the high probability that your tome was not merlot affected at this early hour.

It does occur to me that I am writing from a different perspective than yourself (your ownself as a famous Texas writer might say) and Mr. Mucci.   Specifically, as members and frequenters of upper end clubs, your experience is probably far more oriented to competitions, match play and otherwise.  I suspect that it is not uncommon in your circles to place substantial wagers on the outcome.

Not all golfers look for the same thing, however.  Most play for camraderie and about $0.25 per hole.

I spent yesterday doing 18 holes of research on the topic.  As I spied different groups of play very few opted, as far as I could tell, to play from different sets of tees.  Now, I was not inclined to ask personal questions about the size of their wagers, but from laughter, shouts, and lack of gun or sword play, I presumed the inducements to be quite minor in the entire scheme of things.  In fact, I would wager that only a few even remember their score this morning, since I saw many of the same enjoying a post round beverage!

Therefore, as far as I can tell, designing one set of tees for the few golfers who play match play in a serious competition is statistically invalid.  As much as handicaps can take care of players of different abilities, so can formal competition set the exact course for competitors when required.  For most of the year, allowing players to choose how long to play the course is still, IMHO, the best option to allow them the most fun, even if they are heathen enough, in your opinion, to consider par as the rules say they should.

By the way, my research again held up the statistics that I put out before - at this course, (Cowboys Golf Club, Grapevine, TX) they average less than 3 players per day from the 7000 yard plus tees.  About 25% play at 6600 and 75% play at just under 6300 yards.  Sadly, only a few hardy female souls play, perhaps discouraged by the macho attitude that still prevails in golf, manifested by such attitudes that we should only design one set of tees for competitive male golfers and let all others be an afterthought.

If I owned that golf course, I would be very hesitant to discourage 1, 25 or 75% of my potential customers by picking one distance to play from, especially if designing it around the golf experience of some club player types who are only likely to show up at my facility a few times a year and NOT providing a variety of distance options that will make my course fun for those paying my greens fees.  Which distance would you pick for that one tee?

Your position might be truly defensible at some golf courses....it might represent an ideal situation for golfers similar to you.  But, while you consider it "ideal" in the tradtions of golf, and you might be correct, it simply isn't idea in the real world of public golf, at least in my humble opinion.  There is little doubt that debate might be had on the concept and question of whether golf is a pursuit against oneself, a recreational game, or a competitive game.  It is flexible enough, actually, to be all of those things, even at one time!  I believe multiple tees allow it to be flexible to those recreational golfers who could care less about competition, and perhaps less about the tradition of the game than their own damn, beer drinking, slice hitting, putt missing fun!

Please forgive me for speaking so directly and for the strong language. I trust our friendship will survive such frank talk.

Kindest regards,

Jeffrey D. Brauer, esq.

PS - to play along, please answer my question above - as a course owner/club manager, if you were committed to a one tee course, which approximate length would you consider ideal?  It seems to me that it would be critical information to flesh out the rest of the equation of how to design for other players with different length abilities. 

Do you favor the 6300 yard course that allows the long hitter to be playing wedge all day?  Do you pick 6600 yards or more and make the shorter hitter capable of winning that match only via short game wizardry?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2009, 11:37:26 AM »
 ;) :( :o


Let's talk about architecture, tees , and the changing of the very game we love .  No matter how you try to analyze it , poke it , Tiger it, or hype it ,  it's all coming back to square one ,  and for me all the fancy accoutrements that ran up the price will fade. 

I'm looking at multiple tees with the jaundiced  eye of one who despises carts with gadgets of all types that dispense coffee . yardage and  the like.  Also I'm not much for visible yard markers everywhere  ( although  I'm  ok with a bushnell used  surreptitiously)  LOL. 

It's the same with tees for me ,  and being everything to everybody is a sure way to fail at your business.  Damn accountants and bean counters shouldn't be running the golf course  , let's do something novel like re-empower the golf professional.  It's time.

And five or six tee markers , heaven forbid tee pods look  God- Awful  .     

They used to set forward tees at  Gulf Stream in Florida perfectly. They took too small , innocuous golf ball like tee markers and set them in the fairway for the ladies , seniors or juniors who wanted to have a game from
further up.   Now that's good stuff ,  and cost effective.!!!!

We're going to strip all the trappings and excess of the 70's 80's and 90's from golf ,   good riddance.   Anyone needing someone to debunk their golf course for them , I'm available , and whoever wants to help sign on here!
 




   

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2009, 06:34:02 PM »
;) :( :o


Let's talk about architecture, tees , and the changing of the very game we love .  No matter how you try to analyze it , poke it , Tiger it, or hype it ,  it's all coming back to square one ,  and for me all the fancy accoutrements that ran up the price will fade. 

I'm looking at multiple tees with the jaundiced  eye of one who despises carts with gadgets of all types that dispense coffee . yardage and  the like.  Also I'm not much for visible yard markers everywhere  ( although  I'm  ok with a bushnell used  surreptitiously)  LOL. 

It's the same with tees for me ,  and being everything to everybody is a sure way to fail at your business.  Damn accountants and bean counters shouldn't be running the golf course  , let's do something novel like re-empower the golf professional.  It's time.

And five or six tee markers , heaven forbid tee pods look  God- Awful  .     

They used to set forward tees at  Gulf Stream in Florida perfectly. They took too small , innocuous golf ball like tee markers and set them in the fairway for the ladies , seniors or juniors who wanted to have a game from
further up.   Now that's good stuff ,  and cost effective.!!!!

We're going to strip all the trappings and excess of the 70's 80's and 90's from golf ,   good riddance.   Anyone needing someone to debunk their golf course for them , I'm available , and whoever wants to help sign on here!
   
Hear, Hear!

A mass of tees looks too busy in the landscape.

I think a clever guy can find a way to mix 2, 3, or 4 sets of tees throughout the course and create a ton of challenge, and if the soils are excellent the forward tees can blend into the fairway with ease.

There is an enormous palette of design options.

One a side note: Women with woods don't take divots. They barely do with irons.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2009, 05:43:02 AM »
Kyle

I will take the opposite view as Jeff - just because he supports a southern hockey club.  

Jeff's first defense for several sets of tees is hazard placement.  I say the first reason for limited tees should be varied land and how its used.  The problem with Jeff's theory is he is trying to satisfy all consumers in a single package and it just can't be done.  There is no one course fits all and the obvious non fit are the best players.  

One of the few ways I would support mega tees is if its mostly angle changing rather yardage build up.  Lets face it, adding yards to a course doesn't hold back the best players so there is no point in doing it for them.  Besides, the best players rarely show up anywhere so nearly every course in existence doesn't even have to consider the best players.  

I think mega tees are for the most part a marketing scam that sensible archies have not yet found a way to break down.  If an archie can't build a good course which challenges and provides fun for nearly every golfer in the world he is doing something wrong.  The UK is full of cracking courses with 3 sets ranging from 5500 to 6200 yards.  

Ciao


Archie

Its more than just a integration issue.  With multiple tees archies are concentrating length of holes rather other aspects of design which are more important such awkward angles, temptation etc.  The idea of a significant proportion of courses needing tees at the 6800 and above mark is ridiculous no mater what any pole results suggest.  The truth of the matter is that an overwhelming percentage of single figure cappers can be challenged by a well designed course at 6000 yards.  In the end, I am afraid that if archies don't want to see courses extended by untold number of tee boxes then they will have speak a bit louder.

Ciao

Sean,

I think that both of your posts raise a very interesting point. The response, or lack of it, to your posts however seems even more interesting.

Gentlemen,

Sean raises a point that is core to strategic GCA yet everyone here has chosen to ignore it. It appears that most people are convinced that the only way to combat top players is length :'( Is this true?

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2009, 08:00:31 AM »
 8) 8) 8)

The question about difficulty as it regards to tee length is kind of off point for me but it appears obvious the best way to defend par is with hard greens and heavy rough , so for me it's not to thwart scoring. Jeff Brauer supports multiples for the oppostie reason, to make the course user friendly.

Though  I see the need for playablility for obvious reasons, like haiving fun,  the use of multiples to me is way overdone in modern architecture, Going forward,  I'm definitely thinking less is more, and there are simple ways to make the !course more playable   

TEPaul

Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2009, 08:09:10 AM »
"PS - to play along, please answer my question above - as a course owner/club manager, if you were committed to a one tee course, which approximate length would you consider ideal?  It seems to me that it would be critical information to flesh out the rest of the equation of how to design for other players with different length abilities."


Mr. Jeffrey:


When you ask which approximate length would I consider ideal in a whole course sense, I don't think it makes much difference.

I think Kyle's point (less tees) and my point (that all golfers could play from the same tee markers), the idea would be that an architect could or would then have to design the holes "through the green" to accommodate all levels of golfers particularly distance-wise.

This would be a distinct paradigm shift from golf and architecture as we have come to know it but after-all it once was that way and could be again.

The ultimate point is that the over-all distance differential that golfers are capable of hitting the ball would have to be "designed into" the course "through the green" and not artificially adjusted at the tee end.

The difference in golfers' performance then would merely be calculated by strokes taken to play (or get to) a hole which would not be artificially skewed by distance handicapping. It would then be necessary for a golfer who was incapable of hitting the ball as far as another golfer to preserve strokes taken by clever play (strategic).

It wouldn't be any difference from the old classic "Tortoise and Hare" analogy that was once commonly used to describe early golf and early architecture.

Hope that answers your question----not that you will agree with it. I, and I suppose Kyle Harris, only ask that you try to understand the paradigm shift.

PS:
I believe this is only an idea for the future. I would not recommend that existing courses be retooled to accommodate it simply because they were not designed for it to start with.  
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 08:11:53 AM by TEPaul »

Lyne Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2009, 08:16:59 AM »
"Are less tees more?"

"has the increase in the amount of tees lead to a decrease in the overall variety of golf designs and a more formulaic approach to design? Has it served as a crutch for architects to stymie creative thought and stick with so-called time tested things like forced carries and 7000+ yard golf courses?

If one accepts the adage of designing the golf course to challenge all skill levels - how does limiting the amount of tees to less than 3 affect the design?"


..."One set of tee blocks will be set per hole. Any variance in yardage is allowed to be designed into the hole. One day a hole could play 360, the next 380".


Kyle - In the following images of Kingsley I count a good number of tees - 6 on the 1st and 7 on the ninth - more than the average I would have thought, so apparently no standard formula applied - yet thoughtfully sited to ensure they sit comfortably within the landscape -- would you not agree?  -- there is in fact an eclectic approach to tee set out throughout the course presumably on a needs basis.

Like Jeff I also query your comment that the creative design process of the architect may be stymied by using a number of tees - rather, in this example I would suggest that the tees have in fact increased the interest of play - by providing a variety of playing angles, a range of hole length and varied strategic challenge and appeal.

If the architect were to have reduced the teeing area to just one (or two) locations surely the golfing appeal of these holes would diminish also - - due largely to a decrease in the overall variety? Could it not be said therefore that multiple tees do not 'only address the distance difference between players of differing abilities' - but that they also provide interesting and varied playing options for all golfers.

One other point - would not one or two large tees of some 30 - 50 yards laid across such topography be somewhat dominant and out of character with the rolling terrain illustrated??

I'm a great fan of 'less is more' but not necessarily when it comes to tees - adapting to the hole, the conditions and the variety of players sounds good to me - sometimes more, sometimes less.

Perhaps a little flexibility isn't such a bad thing?

Cheers -- Lyne



Kingsley Hole #1








Kingsley Hole #9











archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2009, 12:45:55 PM »
 8) ;D ;)


Now that the world is obviously not  "flat"  , as much as some would like us to believe, costs of tee construction and maintenance could be lessened by the obvious. Build fewer.

Aesthetically speaking it's pretty hard to argue that they tend to stick out , or else so many successful architects wouldn't  spend so much time trying to camouflage them. One of the problems with doing too good a job at hiding them is that players can't find them .  Given that many of our players , particularly when playing a new golf course , struggle to find tees , yardages and the like , they sometimes can't find tees that blend into the landscape. This begets  multiple conundrums , and opens back the Pandora's box that led to good signage , GPS systems , and all the other visual litter we now see on so many golf courses.

There are issues with limiting the number of boxes , but the good clearly outweighs the bad  IMHO   

Kyle Harris

Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2009, 12:48:28 PM »
I shall reiterate.

I am all for multiple locations to place tees. Just one or two sets placed daily.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2009, 01:22:46 PM »
 ;D :D ;)


me too ,  I'm for less locations , pods or whatever and less placings daily , for the already stated reasons and more.

Archie

Anthony Gray

Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2009, 01:28:57 PM »


  The more tees the better. Who wants to play Royal Groundhog Day where you know what clubs you are going to use before you play. GIVE ME TEES!!! I want variety!!!


  Anthony


Kyle Harris

Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2009, 07:48:49 PM »


  The more tees the better. Who wants to play Royal Groundhog Day where you know what clubs you are going to use before you play. GIVE ME TEES!!! I want variety!!!


  Anthony



Royal Groundhog Day isn't routed through Royal Weatherproof Bubble is it?

FOR THE THIRD TIME I AM NOT ADVOCATING LESS OPTIONS FOR TEES, JUST LESS TEEING GROUNDS DEFINED BY THE TWO MARKERS WHICH ESTABLISH THE STARTING POINT FOR THE HOLE FOR THE DAY
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 07:50:24 PM by Kyle Harris »

Lyne Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Less is more with Tees
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2009, 11:04:25 PM »


Kyle - let’s talk the One Tee example through.

We should probably start by varying par for the hole in relation to hcp. Presumably the higher hcp’er, women and seniors will be playing a longer than ideal course the majority of time therefore more par 5’s for them, perhaps the odd par 6 and plenty of long fours – this translates into a round of driver – numerous fairway woods and approaches of around 100 or so metres/yards on possibly 14 holes.

In addition, as higher hcp golfers are pretty much focussed on making reasonable ball contact rather than playing with finesse or overarching strategic thinking you will also need to factor in play from the bunkers that have likely been randomly placed along the golf hole under this equation, not to mention slow play through rough and other hazards.

So - what we have in the making is a longer and slower round of golf for the group with the long hitter / low handicapper waiting patiently  :) for the short hitter to progress along the fairway. I personally experience this very situation whenever I play with short hitting golfers – having to wait on just about every shot not because of slow play as such but because the pace of play is dictated by the number of golf shots required to be hit by each individual. The seniors and short hitting women typically take two and sometimes three shots to reach my drive (and that is just the first shot on the hole) – multiply that by two or three players and you have a scenario that is best limited or kept to social golf wherever possible.

At my ‘classic’ home course, your reduced tee concept is a reality – the outcome is that when varied abilities are brought together the round takes longer for the group as a whole and the higher h’capper is frustrated due to the tiresome driver - fairway wood game they have been dealt. They can also see that the game is different for others and question why it is they have a half dozen clubs in their bag that they never use. These golfers also typically have a sense that they are holding the flow of play up for others which further detracts from their enjoyment of the round. All kinds of mind games ensue and many of these golfers wonder just why they play the game -- if it doesn’t help one to feel good and it isn’t fun – why keep paying expensive subs or green fees??

I frequently hear comments from seniors and high handicappers that they have had to ‘run their way around the course’ to achieve a regular 4 hour 10 minute game – (beware the wrath of a women’s committee) or that ‘it just isn’t fun anymore’ (wood after wood - sigh). These are golfers who have no choice but to play a course layout that is too long for the length they can achieve. However with thoughtful course setup we can accommodate these golfers in a non- intrusive way and provide them with a degree of participation that is often only experienced by better golfers.

Kyle, granted some of these issues are typically not at the top of ones thoughts but some, hopefully most architects are thinking about all of these varied elements - and more - when they are pulling the mechanics of a course together. Indeed these issues may not be your concern - and that's ok; perhaps you play with a group with similar games and abilities, or are an accomplished golfer who only ever plays with other accomplished golfers. The typical golfer however does have a high handicap and the above scenario does play out every week on a course somewhere near you that has limitations on tee use. Through the provision of multiple tees – not necessarily 5 or 6 but enough to accommodate varied play in a reasonable fashion, architects can counter playability problems to a degree. This makes the game more inclusive, speeds up play, allows for scoring by more participants - which equates to enjoyment, keeps people out in the fresh air and supporting their club - surely this is good thing?

Indeed there are many ways to skin a cat but I suspect at some point at your conceptual course you would need to initiate handicap limits or introduce divisional play on your time sheet so as to keep your members content with the overall management of the field. Alternatively you may need to be prepared to loose a few members when some find they prefer a varied approach to course set up at an alternate club. And you may on occasion have to wear your superintendent’s wrath when his carefully maintained tees are demolished by the onslaught of divots on some holes just a few hours after he or she set the markers out.

In closing I do hear what you and others are suggesting   While you are 'not advocating less options for tees you are advocating (the use of) less teeing ground on any given day'. From my experience fewer options can lead to the example I have outlined above.

I sense you feel tees have become a bigger element than they need be, perhaps you are right. The reality is though if we are to be considerate designers and golfers or successful in the running of a golf facility - we do need to consider the bigger picture and we may need to meet somewhere in the middle.

Cheers -- Lyne