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Mike_Cirba

Re:Who am I? (south Jersey)
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2007, 08:53:24 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

I'm not quite sure how they're doing economically.   I sense they are still trying to attract membership.

The ironic part of what you mentioned is that virtually all of the courses you listed have had a considerable degree of discussion and debate here on GCA...Twisted Dune, Galloway, Hidden Creek, even Seaview.   I'd say that Ballamor is considerably better than Renault (even with a really good front nine) and better than the mishmash that is Seaview Pines, perhaps not as tranquilly enjoyable as Seaview Bay but much more challenging, in the league of Twisted Dune (though much different types of course, each have their respective pros and cons), and a point or so behind the level of Galloway and Hidden Creek.  

I find it odd that a course with those attributes, built in a major vacation playground region in the past couple of years on the east coast would go virtually unnoticed.

As far as Brigantine, it's one course that I could never objectively review because it has FAR too much sentimentality involved for me.   When I was a kid, starting at about age 13, we would go to Brigantine for our summer vacation the week of July 4th each year.   We soon discovered "Brigantine Country Club", the old Stiles/Van Kleek course as it was known then, and for a neophyte budding bunch of golfers (my two brothers, me, and our dad) you'd have thought we'd died and went to heaven.   With the ocean breeezes and sandy terrain, we might as well have been on the coast of Fife in our collective minds.  

I haven't played there in over 20 years because I'm afraid of breaking any idealistic illusory memories I still lovingly harbor, although we get to the island often for day trips to the beach.

SS1,

Interesting thoughts...thanks.

I would agree with most of what you wrote and had mixed feelings about #10.   We played it into a stiff wind, and it's a mine field of bunkers (10 in all....it plays 578 from the tips and 557 from the blues) that must be avoided or reaching in 3 becomes a real low percentage.   From any tee, anyone trying to reach in two is facing a completely blind second shot, as the hole reaches the top of the hill at about 450 yards or so, and then falls away downhill to a really tightly protected green.   It's also the only hole where a tree actually comes into play, with one impinging on the approach from the right side.  

It's a ballbuster, no question, and very tough for a par five.

I thought about it and would have enjoyed seeing a long par four to a skyline green for that one, followed by a short downhill par three.   However, that might not work ideally ast the 9th hole features a blind uphill approach and is a long, demanding par four.

But, if you did, then the 11th would be the 12th and you could make the present 12th and 13th holes into a par five, which I think could have been a pretty spectacular hole given the landforms.

Still, as you point out, the routing does seem to be limited at some points by the constraints of what land was available for use.

Still and all, a really nice effort overall with very interesting green complexes and considerable strategic interest and great playability for all levels of golfer.    

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey)
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2007, 10:04:59 AM »
Mike

"I find it odd that a course with those attributes, built in a major vacation playground region in the past couple of years on the east coast would go virtually unnoticed."

I think this is the problem in building a private club without a name architect in a major metro market. I don't know who the developers are and what their budget was but unless the course rings a bell, membership sales will be a problem and so will recognition. It all goes into the marketing equation.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Cirba

Re:Who am I? (south Jersey)
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2007, 10:38:37 AM »
Mike

"I find it odd that a course with those attributes, built in a major vacation playground region in the past couple of years on the east coast would go virtually unnoticed."

I think this is the problem in building a private club without a name architect in a major metro market. I don't know who the developers are and what their budget was but unless the course rings a bell, membership sales will be a problem and so will recognition. It all goes into the marketing equation.



Steve,

Would it follow that a Non-Big-name architect can only get cache by developing a series of well-renowned public courses first?  

It would seem to me that one of the primary problems with the course in question is exactly how few of us here have played it!   This, despite the fact that this forum brings together a focused group who love to study and discuss golf course architecture.

In a public setting, that would almost assuredly not be a problem.

Would anyone here have gone to play the private Laurel Links by Kelly Moran if we weren't already somewhat familiar with his style and reputation from his courses at Hawk Pointe, Lederach, and Morgan Hill?

What does that say about general market preconceptions?   But more importantly, if we're the supposed golf course cognescenti, what does that say about our stereotypes and willingness to keep an open mind??

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2007, 10:48:56 AM »
 I have a friend who is a member there. I played there several years ago. I haven't felt the need to go back. He has been trying to get out of there for a year or more because he has moved to Georgia. The last time I spoke with him he said he was still stuck because they have memberships available.

   My sense is that their marketing did not go after avid golfers. They went for the second- home -at -the-shore player who wanted to avoid six hour rounds.

  Thus they probably did not see the benefit of a name architect.
AKA Mayday

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey)
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2007, 10:50:11 AM »
I had an invite to play Ballamor a few years ago after it opened. The day was rained out. I haven't been there since. I've played Schlegel's Heron Glen near Flemington, NJ. I like his work there.

I was thinking that as a prospective member, why would I choose Ballamor over Hidden Creek or Galloway or even Linwood or Stone Harbor, for that matter? With all the public options in the area, why would I spend money to join a club that's a notch below them? Perhaps a name architect such as Pete Dye or Rees Jones or Nicklaus would have generated more publicity to compete with Fazio and C&C when the course was built and thereafter. That's what I'm saying.

Perhaps Ballamor needs to invite us all there for an outing?  ;D

Furthermore, Ballamor sounds like Talamore. A different name might have helped its public perception. ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Cirba

Re:Who am I? (south Jersey)
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2007, 10:54:11 AM »

Furthermore, Ballamor sounds like Talamore. A different name might have helped its public perception. ;D

Lord, if that isn't the kiss of death.

I'm not sure it isn't confusing as well to have the highly regarded public course Ballyowen in New Jersey, as well.  

Although, I'm pretty sure that hasn't hurt Ballyneal.  ;)

Steve,

Are you saying that Linwood and Stone Harbor are better courses than Ballamor?   I haven't played either, but that would surprise me.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 10:55:49 AM by MPCirba »

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2007, 10:58:53 AM »
I have a friend who is a member there. I played there several years ago. I haven't felt the need to go back. He has been trying to get out of there for a year or more because he has moved to Georgia. The last time I spoke with him he said he was still stuck because they have memberships available.

   My sense is that their marketing did not go after avid golfers. They went for the second- home -at -the-shore player who wanted to avoid six hour rounds.

  Thus they probably did not see the benefit of a name architect.

I recall seeing advertising in local and regional golf publications, something with the logo and the phrase "Ballamor...It's Not For Everyone" made me say "GMAFB".  I recall passing by it on the way to Hidden Creek, and it just appeared too manicured, too clean.  I thought it was Fazio based on first glance.  Not my cup of tea--four overweight guys in carts with the big bags and cigars, you know the deal.  I confess to writing it off based on a negative first impression; a lot of this club marketing makes me shake my head...but it works for some.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2007, 11:07:47 AM »
Mike

I am shocked, shocked that you haven't played Stone Harbor. A must play for all Desmond Muirhead fans. I've played there a few times. The wind is always a factor adding difficulty to a difficult course.

Linwood is an established club with reasonable membership program. The course looks very good from the road and is probably a good members course. It's more convenient for the summer people in Ventnor, Margate, Longport and Ocean City.

Ballamor suffers from too many options elsewhere. That's why membership sales have been slow.

Wasn't Rees Jones the original architect of record for Twisted Dune?



"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2007, 11:43:16 AM »
Yo Doug! That's my friend you're talking about , except for the fat part. Interesting that he didn't smoke cigars at RG but did at Ballamor.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 01:42:06 PM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2007, 12:56:50 PM »
Mike

I am shocked, shocked that you haven't played Stone Harbor. A must play for all Desmond Muirhead fans. I've played there a few times. The wind is always a factor adding difficulty to a difficult course.

Linwood is an established club with reasonable membership program. The course looks very good from the road and is probably a good members course. It's more convenient for the summer people in Ventnor, Margate, Longport and Ocean City.

Ballamor suffers from too many options elsewhere. That's why membership sales have been slow.

Wasn't Rees Jones the original architect of record for Twisted Dune?


Steve,

I'm shocked, shocked, shocked that I haven't played Stone Harbor yet, as well.   It's not because I don't want to; I even called them this winter but for a course actively seeking memberships they didn't seem to encourage outside play.  

Isn't Linwood Herbert Strong?   That alone makes it probably worth seeing.

And yes, the original architect at Twisted Dune was Rees Jones.   I don't know the whole story, but I'm not sure Rees has the style to pull off that look and feel.

Doug,

The course at Ballamor is indeed exceptionally well kept.   In fact, it was probably among the best conditioned courses I've ever played, but could probably stand a bit less water on the approaches.  

I'm also pretty sure that looking like a Tom Fazio course is only a negative among this group!  ;)  ;D

p.s....I didn't see or smell any cigars, and even saw a walker.   In retrospect, I wish I had walked, just to see how that impacted the enjoyment of the round.


Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2007, 03:17:20 PM »
I had the good fortune to play with Mike Cirba on Saturday at Ballamor.  

It was probably the 4th or 5th time I have played the course and I have enjoyed it each time.

I think looking at it as an Ault Clark course is a clear cop out.  While the course does lack the "in your face" strategy that most of us love in our modern courses, it does have a lot of width and a lot of intersting holes.

Even though the routing looks as it does from the aerial above, I believe the course is quite walkable, within each "pod" the tee to green walks are minimal, and the distance between each pod is not bad.

The green complexes are interesting, and very large.  The one  negative comment I have, and part of this had to with the fact that I wasn't hitting it very well, is that I never felt too much pressure being put on my approach shot.  

As far as courses go in that area, I would say Atlantic City and Galloway stand above the rest, with Hidden Creek coming a notch below those.

Beyond that I would group Ballamor in with Seaview, Twisted Dunes, Blue Heron  etc.  I have to think Ballamor is a lot more interesting that Linwood.

Doug,
Your comment strikes me as a little odd, as I really don't think there's any place from the outside road you can actually see Ballamor, other than the gate, which I agree sends the wrong message.

The club is actually quite understated and the course is in great condition.

I think it is good for what Mike Malone describes, an affordable club and place to play if you have a 2nd home down the shore when you want a place that won't have 5-6 hour rounds on the weekends.  

Regarding Steve Shaffer's comment,
Ballamor is at a MUCH  MUCHlower pricepoint than Galloway, a sizeable amount lower than Hidden Creek.  Lindwood is easily accesible, but it gets very crowded on weekends there.  The once difference being Linwood or Greate Bay is most likely a much easier place to find a game.

All in all Ballamor is an enjoyable place for a round.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey)
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2007, 03:25:47 PM »
Mike

"I find it odd that a course with those attributes, built in a major vacation playground region in the past couple of years on the east coast would go virtually unnoticed."

I think this is the problem in building a private club without a name architect in a major metro market. I don't know who the developers are and what their budget was but unless the course rings a bell, membership sales will be a problem and so will recognition. It all goes into the marketing equation.



Steve,

....

It would seem to me that one of the primary problems with the course in question is exactly how few of us here have played it!   This, despite the fact that this forum brings together a focused group who love to study and discuss golf course architecture.

....

It would seem we have sort of a chicken and egg problem here.  It would seem that if it were a doak 7+, word of mouth would have substantially helped the marketing effort.  And as said previously, please update the course website!  If the market is the second home person with excess cash willing to spent it to avoid a 6 hr round, I would think a modern website would be where some of the first marketing $ would be spent.
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

Mike_Cirba

Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2007, 03:29:55 PM »
Powell,

I agree that the website is atrocious.  It makes the mission of the club very unclear.


Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2007, 04:25:04 PM »
Jason-I hear you.  Just my opinion, that's all. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 02:46:38 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2007, 04:34:23 PM »
Sorry Doug.  I didn't mean to pick on you.  I haven't noticed the club's advertising/marketing, so I can't comment on that. I can just say that once you actually get in the gates, its quite understated, more so than Hidden Creek.  

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2007, 04:41:32 PM »
The website needs a serious updating. The News section highlights the 2005 Member- Guest results!

Is the club in financial difficulty? Or is the developer one of those guys who doesn't need to sell memberships?

Finding a game is an important factor in choosing a club. Who wants to bring guests all the time?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2007, 04:41:51 PM »
No offense meant, no offense taken
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 02:47:25 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2007, 04:51:46 PM »
Getting back to golf course architecture, is the first course routed in quadrants?

From a review:

Situated on 575 Acres of gently rolling New Jersey Pine Forest, the Ballamor Golf Club has a goal of becoming the standard by which all other area private clubs will be judged. This 18-hole course is the first of two courses to be developed on this site. The site is broken into quadrants by English Creek and other wetland tributaries. This creates a serene environment in which to enjoy the game as no one quadrant becomes overcrowded with players. The course is planted with bentgrass tees, greens, and fairways with a blend of bluegrass and fescue roughs. A combination of ponds, approx. 80 bunkers, bail out areas and tree lined fairways create a great variety of shot values and strategic challenges.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Cirba

Re:Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2007, 07:25:36 PM »
Steve,

It isn't really routed distinctly in quadrants.   For instance, after playing the first hole one goes to a new quadrant for the second, stay there through the 5th, come back for the 6th, go to a new quadrant for the 7th through 14th, and so on.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2009, 09:32:07 AM »
I understand that this club has a very attractive "associate membership" for those who have a summer home at the NJ shore.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re: Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2009, 11:52:31 AM »
Mike, et al:

Jason is right to say Ballamor is more interesting than Linwood but that's akin to saying that Burger King has better burgers than Carl Jr's.

Ballamor is a matter-of-fact paint-by-the-numbers golf design. Can't help the fact that the terrain -- the predictable yawn as much as you area of South Jersey -- is in play here.

No doubt for most people if you throw into the picture good quality turf few will take the time to unearth what lies immediately below the surface.

Anyone visiting the area that plays there does so because no less than 5 other top courses well above it are either closed or too crowded to get on.

Ballamor is a diversion that rises just above the level of mediocrity, in my mind. As Mike C said it has its moments -- I just personally didn't see many of them worth the time to return there.

Mike C -- I have an open mind - I was hoping Ballamor would be able to provide another reason to be in the area beyond the golf provided at places like TD, ACCC, HC and GN. It flies considerably below those four.


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2009, 10:27:59 PM »
Matt,
Carl Jr's has better burgers than BK.

Matt_Ward

Re: Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2009, 12:47:10 AM »
Dan:

Thanks for helping me out on the burger dimension.

My golf thoughts remain the same.

It's a fun diversion but if time is tight then places like TD are clearly the play when in the area. I also like what's at Greate Bay because it still provides as much.

If people are looking for an old time layout that rarely gets noticed -- be sure to head to Tuckerton -- exit 38 on the GS Pkwy and search out the Ocean County GC at Atlantis. This was the first solo design by George Fazio and the course still has its moments. Albeit in need of some serious upgrading.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2009, 05:21:18 AM »
Dan:

Thanks for helping me out on the burger dimension.

My golf thoughts remain the same.

It's a fun diversion but if time is tight then places like TD are clearly the play when in the area. I also like what's at Greate Bay because it still provides as much.

If people are looking for an old time layout that rarely gets noticed -- be sure to head to Tuckerton -- exit 38 on the GS Pkwy and search out the Ocean County GC at Atlantis. This was the first solo design by George Fazio and the course still has its moments. Albeit in need of some serious upgrading.

Mmmmm, Carl's Jr.....

I always thought that Kimberton was GFaz's first design.  Not that it matters one bit.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Matt_Ward

Re: Who am I? (south Jersey - Ballamor)
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2009, 10:31:51 AM »
Joe:

If I'm wrong I stand corrected -- but the Jersey one is often way underrated and it still has its moments now. The downhill par-3 6th is still a peach of a hole.

Few people really talk about although as I stated before the layout could stand a for a bit of help in upgrading certain elements.

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