Why is 9 at NGLA such an average Long version?

[Ran Morrissett]

On the front side at National, Macdonald bests the original Alps, Redan, Short, and perhaps even Bottle hole and then on the 9th, he creates a good and nice - but far from great - Long hole. It doesn't begin to approach the 14th at St. Andrews in merit on any of its three tee to green shots.

How can that be? Is something missing from Macdonald's day? Did Raynor and he ever get this hole right on any of their courses?

Cheers,

PS I have always thought that NGLA might be the one course that can stand up hole for hole with Pine Valley but PV has no hole that accepts such relatively loose play. Something seems amiss...

[George Bahto]

Mac and Raynor got the 14th of the Old Course right in only one place that I know of - on the 17th at Lido. It has the Elysian Fields in the prime landing area (the right side of the fairway nice - the other, very undulating) and the dreaded Hell Bunker complex is perfectly placed for the 1920s, some 135-yds from the green, where you had to make the decision to either layup or go. And unlike the Old Course you couldn't play down the wrong fairway.

I'd post the sketch that appears in the Lido section of the book (it is really coming) but don't know how - beside, buy the book    

National's 9th: "Big-Mac", perhaps, didn't have the balls to put Hell Bunker where it should have been, instead setting it off to the left side and short of the "proper" area

........  hey, there's no way I can diss this guy!  He's been good to me and he's still hanging around out there at NGLA - just ask the guys on the grounds crew!! ...... ooooooor

there was a day when I was left in the clubhouse with my photographer late in the fall after the "season" - very scary guys.   (course i'm getting older and a bit whackier these days)

Just another thought:  sometimes we (you fellas) are putting the great little-touched courses of the Golden Age in the context of today's play - think how awesome they were in those days.

About a year before the great Sarazen died, I was fortunate to have been granted an interview with him.  My thinking was that here was a guy who actually played Lido  - what a resource. His response?  "too windy and like National, lots of blind shots - hated the course" was about all I could get on that subject, so I struck out.  Dr. Bill Quirin told me his records showed that Gene never scored well at the Lido - guess it was just one of those courses you don't like to discuss when you don't play it well (we all have those, I'm sure)

All he wanted to know about was The Knoll, my course, one of his hangouts when in his prime. He told me some corp. from Detroit was "duking" him to take people there.

[TEPaul]

Forget about the 14th at TOC! #9 NGLA is it's own hole and has its own character. It's very much its own landform too! All #9 needs is some really good bunkering on the second shot for most players and that second shot bunkering could be conceived very near the green too to accomodate the strategies of very good player's as well. I don't think it would be hard to do and afterall it's just bunkering and should be tried. If it isn't successful it could be gotten rid of.

Forget about Hell bunker or whatever--this is a hole that is what it is and I don't think one needs to second guess what Macd would have done here copying a hole in Europe. What this hole need in the second shot speaks for itself, in my opinion!

[George Bahto]

Tommy - do you want to change the course?

[TEPaul]

No, but is the second shot or the second half of #9 NGLA as good as it can be? I'm not anxious to change the golf course but in the context of an architectural discussion it's a valid question.

I can certainly live with the fact that NGLA should never be changed just because it's NGLA! But you must admit that doesn't really answer the question!

[George Bahto]

Tom: You said: "in the context of an architectural discussion " - here I agree whole heartedly with your evealuation of the second shot at 9-NGLA

[Sebonac]

If the fairways are sped up and firmed up again as apparently they will be this summer....and as they have not been, for the most part, for quite some time....many drives are going to end up in the left bunkers...or with a bit of an awkward side hill lie on the left side of the fairway....making it a more challenging second shot just because of that...

Also, the left bunker about 60 yds short of the green on the left would receive more shots...if the ball kept on rolling on the hard fairways the way they used to....Ou could pull the laft bunkr out another ten yards or soe towards the fairway....

#9 also has an interesting quirk....if you land the ball in front of the green.....trying to run it in....the ball often just stops....it is very soft right there....but if you land it on the green....especially down wind...it is easy to roll it to the back of the green or off....

#9 is strong enough....very few players get there in two.....and the green is subtle, but quite difficult....long putts are very hard to read on that hole...there are little knobs where the hole can be placed that can make lags tough....

[SPDB]

I have always liked Camargo's Long (#9), although having not played the original i have no idea how faithful it is to it. I think the bunker on the knoll of the hill is great.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

I think your question takes on additional weight when you consider that this was the original 18th hole.

Sort of anti-climatic don't you think ?

[Ran Morrissett]

Pat, I completely agree - they got lucky when the old Shinnecock Inn burned down near 10.

Wonder why Macdonald went with a relatively subdued green on 9 when it's the green as much as Hell Bunker that makes 14 at St. Andrews so great?

[R.S._Barker]

I'm no expert on NGLA, and I will certainly defer to George's expertise and thoughts about the course.

But, perhaps C.B. wanted a hole that would allow the player to relax, even if it was the original 18th hole at NGLA. It seems that when studying the great courses that each architect wanted a lull hole to give the player a chance to recuperate.

I also think that at the time this hole was the 18th, wouldn't the average player have only been able to come in on their 3rd shot ? I'm sure there was the rare player that was the exception to the rule, but I mean, 540 yards is not a short hole for that period in history.

[George Bahto]

....... and how great was it in the original routing with the great hole-8 being the penultimate 17th!!!

by the way the Principal's Nose on 8 was added long after the hole was first built - people were getting past the corner of the bunkering so he added it