Mmmmmmmm Camargo

[JLahrman]

The 11th green has a nice horseshoe ridge in it (you can make out part of it just behind the flag in John's photo).  Not sure if this is the norm for Raynor Short holes, but it does make the hole interesting.  Get your ball on the same ridge as the pin and you should have a good look at birdie.  Anyplace else and you're going to have a tough time making par.

[John Mayhugh]

Indeed, the 11th has a nice horseshoe ridge in it (you can make out part of it just behind the flag in John's photo).  Not sure if this is the norm for Raynor Short holes, but it does make the hole interesting.  Get your ball on the same ridge as the pin and you should have a good look at birdie.  Anyplace else and you're going to have a tough time making par.

I did have one more photo from closer to the green but somehow hadn't uploaded it to photobucket.  A really fun hole.

[John Mayhugh]

The twelth hole at the 6th best course in Ohio (according to Golf Digest  ) is a 410 yard par 4 that doglegs to the right.  I've read that this was originally intended to be a "bottle" hole, but that the club members never really liked the alternate fairway and it wasn't used.


The green is tough to see from the right side of the fairway.


Bunkers provide a diagonal hazard across the fairway short of the green.  There is quite a bit of fairway in front of the green on the right side of the bunkers.  It might be easier to follow by looking back at the aerial I posted.


A great little drop off on the left side of the green as seen from 13 tee.


And a look back at 12 fairway from 13 tee.

[SPDB]

John:
The 12th hole ("Channel") was patterned after the hole at Lido of the same name (the 4th), which I believe was patterned after a hole at Littlestone.

[JLahrman]

The diagonal cross bunkers on 12 add a lot of visual confusion for the golfer.  Between the size of the green and the location of the bunkers, it's very difficult to feel confident in the club that you've selected.

[Dean DiBerardino]

John:
The 12th hole ("Channel") was patterned after the hole at Lido of the same name (the 4th), which I believe was patterned after a hole at Littlestone.

SPDB:

I remember reading about the 12th at Camargo being a “Channel” hole before having the opportunity to play it a few years ago (Wow!).  However, when playing the 12th, I noticed that the fairway made its way uphill along a ridge and that the right side of the hole in the landing area seemed to fall off into a ravine some 20 feet below.  It seemed hard to imagine, assuming the alternate fairway would have been to the right, how the hole was originally configured.

Also, an aerial found on www.historicaerials.com from 1956 seems to show no remnants of an alternate fairway on either side of the 12th hole.

From 1956:
http://www.historicaerials.com/?poi=4964

It would be very enlightening to see some photos or hole sketches of Camargo’s 12th hole in its infancy.

[JLahrman]

Dean,

It sounds to me like you (and possibly SPDB) are actually describing the 14th hole, not the 12th.  The 14th has what appears to be a possible alternate fairway to the right of the current fairway.  I'm sure we'll see it once John gets to the 14th.  The right of the 12th is heavily tree-lined and falls away precipitously into a valley.

[SPDB]

No, it is the 12th hole. The alternate or split fairway was to the left of the current fairway. As designed, I believe it would have been a par 5. Just to be clear, the alternate fairway only appeared in Raynor's plans and was never implemented. Tom Doak and I have exchanged about this in the past; he has seen the plans. A search of the archives should reveal what the plans called for.

[Dean DiBerardino]

SPDB:

Thanks for making that more clear.  So was the original plan a "bottle" hole with a split fairway or a "channel" hole with an alternate fairway?  Thanks.

[JLahrman]

OK, well that makes sense as there is room on the left for an alternate fairway on 12.  14 would have had room on the right, and I believe there was actually a discussion on that hole a few years back on GCA.

[John Mayhugh]

The 13th is a 369 yard par 4 that doglegs sharply to the right.  It's only around 220 from the tee to the end of the fairway if you go straight. 


From the fairway around 160 yds out.  Note the steep drop on either side of the green.


Looking back at the fairway from the back of the green.


And from the 14th tee.  The only good place to miss the green seems to be short.


The 14th is a 380 yard par 4.  The fairway is elevated above the tee and drops off sharply if you miss right.


If you only hit it 220 or so from the tee, here's your view of the green.


A look at the green from a bit closer.


And just short of the green.

[JLahrman]

Great pics John,

There is a bunker to the left of the 13th green which is all but hidden from the fairway.  You can see it on the aerial on the previous page.

On 14, you're seeing the most accessible pin.  It can be placed so far back and right behind that bunker that you can't believe there is still green over there.

[John Mayhugh]

The 15th is the last of Camargo's famous par 3s - a splendid Redan.  192 yards from the tips, 176 from the regular tees.  No, I wasn't holding the camera at an angle. 


Another look from the front of the teeing area.


Here's the green from the left rear looking back toward the tee.  I am really sorry that I don't have more/better photos of this green.


You can get a sense of how huge the slope is from the 16th fairway looking back over at 15 green.



The 16th plays 378 from the regular tees, 420 from the back.  It's about 220yds to get past the bunker on the left.  It's good to play closer to that bunker to get a better angle for the approach.
 

From the center of the fairway, the green is barely visible.  If you're on the right side, your view is really impacted by the large bunker on the right.


Note the movement in the fairway.


This is probably 50 yards from the green.  There is a bunker on the left side of the green as well.


The green from the front left.


This was taken on the left side of the green. 


And from the rear.  Another green I wish photos could do justice.  It's sort of like a double plateau green, though I don't think the front section is all that distinct.  The rear left and right are divided by a nice gully. 


John Pflum, if you're still following this discussion - would you be willing to change the title of the thread to something like Camargo in pictures or Camargo commentary?  I cannot understand why there isn't any more participation and think maybe the title isn't illustrative enough.

[JLahrman]

Doing my best to prop it up John...hopefully people are seeing this because I haven't seen photos of Camargo (apart from Ran's profile) on this site before - certainly nothing this comprehensive with such quality.

Regarding the outstanding 15th, it's really difficult to see from the pictures how dead you are if you try to draw the ball in (the correct play) but you instead hang your shot out right and you go over the knob.  The pitch is straight up with the green running away from you.  It is all but impossible to get enough loft on your ball so that it will land without running through the green.

16 I have always found to be the least distinctive tee shot at Camargo, but the green makes up for it.  John described it well, but a simple analogy is that the two back plateaus cause the green to resemble the torso of a woman lying on her back.

[Criss Titschinger]

I cannot understand why there isn't any more participation and think maybe the title isn't illustrative enough.

I've only ever driven by the course, so I'm just enjoying the pics.  Easily the most thorough I've seen of the course yet.  I'm always slightly surprised by how many Cincinnati golfers don't know of its existence.  I've only seen aerials and what's in Ran's report, so this is a great education for me on this great course.  Thank you for taking time to post these!

[Kyle Christensen]

Thank you for the write up. Gives me a reason to sign up for the U.S. Am qualifier again this year. The redan at Camargo is phenomenal. When I played there two years ago I somehow got up and down after airmailing the green. The pin location was about the same spot as in the pictures. I probably will never forget that shot, my brother was caddying for me and told me he would give me a 100 dollars if I got up an down. Needless to say he still owes me. One of my 10 favorite courses in the country, and probably my favorite set of greens I have ever played.

[George Freeman]

I cannot understand why there isn't any more participation and think maybe the title isn't illustrative enough.

John,

I have been watching this thread very closely as this is the most comprehensive photo tour I have seen of Camargo (a course I have wanted to see for a long time!). 

Thanks for posting, the course looks REALLY fun!  Your efforts are not in vain.

Cheers,

George

[David Whitmer]

I finally was able to open up my new Golf Digest last night to see the rankings (tax season + newborn daughter = not much free time). I know I probably have a Cincinnati bias, but I was shocked to see Camargo fall out of the top 100. I have played about 20 courses in the top 100, and in my opinion Camargo is just as good as any.

I know the rankings are subjective, and the debate is part of the fun, but if there are 100 better tracks in the country than Camargo, I have ben living a very sheltered life!

[JLahrman]

I finally was able to open up my new Golf Digest last night to see the rankings (tax season + newborn daughter = not much free time). I know I probably have a Cincinnati bias, but I was shocked to see Camargo fall out of the top 100. I have played about 20 courses in the top 100, and in my opinion Camargo is just as good as any.

I know the rankings are subjective, and the debate is part of the fun, but if there are 100 better tracks in the country than Camargo, I have ben living a very sheltered life!

Amen to that.  I have no interest in piling on the GD ranking the way it is happening in other threads, but I was very surprised to see Camargo fall all the way out.  I don't know when it first appeared but I remember back in the late 80s/early 90s it hadn't been in the rankings, then did appear and seemed to be steadily moving up.

[JLahrman]

Any chance the last two holes are coming John?

[John Mayhugh]

Any chance the last two holes are coming John?

Since it has nothing to do with the Masters I thought I would wait til Monday. I'll try to post the pics this weekend.

[JLahrman]

OK cool.

[John Mayhugh]

The 17th at Camargo is a 500 yard par 5.  The fairway is a little higher than the level of the tee so the landing area isn't completely visible. 


You can see some of the undulations in the fairway.  With my length, the green isn't really reachable with the second shot, so better to lay up to a level spot for the approach.




I really like how the fairway transitions to green surface on this hole as with many others at Camargo.  I believe the bunker on the left is supposed to be a "road" bunker.   With the slope of the fairway, it's easy to see that bunker collecting approaches that are on the ground.




From the back right side of the green you can see how it feeds towards that bunker.


The 18th is a 415 yard par four.  One last look at the rolling terrain that Raynor used so effectively. The fairway narrows and curves just a bit to draw you towards the bunkers left.  It is useful to be on the left side of the fairway to avoid trees on your approach.
 



From the center of the fairway maybe 100 yds from the green.


And a bit closer to the green.  The fairway & green both slope a little left to encourage balls into the bunker.


Camargo is a great example of how the CBM templates can be fit to interesting terrain.  Holes don't always look completely natural, but they also don't look forced on the land.  I really hope to make it back up there sometime.  A wonderful experience.

[JLahrman]

Thanks for a great course tour John.  It's a fantastic course, a ton of fun from start to finish.

[David Whitmer]

Thanks so much John. Camargo is a GREAT golf course.