Mmmmmmmm Camargo

[George Freeman]

Thanks John for the great tour, the course looks really neat.  You mentioned #17 being their version of the Road Hole, is there a rear bunker acting as the road?

[JLahrman]

George, I don't remember anything of note behind the green.

[John Mayhugh]

Thanks John for the great tour, the course looks really neat.  You mentioned #17 being their version of the Road Hole, is there a rear bunker acting as the road?

There is no bunker behind the green.  The Raynor "road" holes don't always look that much like the one at St. Andrews.  I could be wrong about this being a road hole anyway, but I believe that was the intent.  I'm no Camargo expert but would love to become one.

[Dean DiBerardino]

Thanks John for the great tour, the course looks really neat.  You mentioned #17 being their version of the Road Hole, is there a rear bunker acting as the road?

There is no bunker behind the green.  The Raynor "road" holes don't always look that much like the one at St. Andrews.  I could be wrong about this being a road hole anyway, but I believe that was the intent.  I'm no Camargo expert but would love to become one.

Below is a link to an aerial from 1956 which shows evidence of a former (original?) bunker behind the green.  From looking at the 1968 image, it seems that the rear bunker may have been removed in the 1963 remodel by Robert von Hagge along with the reshaping of the two front bunkers.

http://historicaerials.com/?poi=5284

[David Whitmer]

The back of the 17th green is elevated, and it drops off a good 4 or 5 feet. Perhaps there once was a bunker there...I don't know. If there was, they did a good job of removing signs of it. I always have assumed it was simply an elevated green with a drop-off.

[Eric Smith]

Nice pics.  The course and the property both look fantastic.

That little camera of yours has been great for golfclubatlas. (same goes for you!)

Please take pics of your match this Saturday.  I smell an upset......................stomach. 

[jonathan_becker]

I've thoroughly enjoyed looking at every photo in this thread.  Camargo is an awesome course.  Thanks John for putting forth the effort.

[Mike Hendren]

Spendid photographs.  The Raynor/Banks style continues to grow on me.

Two questions:

1.  Are the fairways as narrow as they appear in the aerial and photographs?
2.  There seem to be a preponderance of approaches with a right-to-left pattern is highly favored.  True?

Thanks.

[Zack Molnar]

Bogey,
The fairways at Camargo are anything but narrow. Most are 30-40 yards wide, with another 10 yards of rough on either side before you reach any trouble. However, most fairways have a slant one way or the other, so in order to keep it in the fairway, you much hit it on the correct side or it will roll into the rough. I think the size and openness of the property make the fairways seem smaller as well.

What do you mean by approaches with a right to left pattern?

[Steve Kline]

The fairways aren't small and there is plenty of room off the tee. I think the only hole that feels tight off the tee is #6.

As for the approaches neither shape shot is favored over the other. It really depends on where the hole is. Almost every hole can require either a fade or draw depending on the hole location and your avoiding the deep bunkers. About the only holes this doesn't apply to are 6 and 15 (the redan) since those are the only greens that are truly angled to the line of play.

Generally the tee shots can handle both fades and draws although they set up this way for me (skipping the par 3s): draw, fade, fade, draw, fade (to hold the fairway), draw, fade, draw, fade, fade, fade, fade, draw, draw. Others might play them differently.

[Mike H]

Steve

#6 is only tight if you take driver or 3 wood off the tee.  I think it is a very easy fairway to hit if you take hybrid or 3 iron.  12 is the hole that I always felt was narrow at Camargo. 

[JLahrman]

Steve

#6 is only tight if you take driver or 3 wood off the tee.  I think it is a very easy fairway to hit if you take hybrid or 3 iron.  12 is the hole that I always felt was narrow at Camargo. 

12 definitely looks narrow off of the tee.  There is a little more room than it appears, but the valley on the right certainly looms large.  Best play is to aim at the left edge of the fairway.  Then you have those cross bunkers about 80 yards short of the green.  No matter how many times one plays the hole, those cross bunkers create a visual illusion that makes it very hard to trust the yardage.  It's a great hole.

[Mark Saltzman]

Bump.

An exceptional photo tour by Mr Mayhugh of a golf course that looks exceptional, on ideal golfing terrain.

Does Camargo have the best set of template par-3s?

[Cory Lewis]

Does Camargo have the best set of template par-3s?

I've played the vast majority of the MacDonald/Raynor/Banks portfolio and as a set, Camargo is the best I've seen!

[Tom_Doak]

Mr. Dye told me when he sent me there in 1984 that Camargo had the best set of Raynor par-3 holes anywhere.

1984!  I've been consulting there coming up on 28 years!

[Terry Lavin]

I've never seen a Raynor that wasn't extra enticing, but this timely bump has again refreshed my recollection about this Midwestern gem.  Very fetching, indeed.

[Niall Hay]

Agree that Camargo is a very special place and that the Par 3’s are the highlight.   How do you compare it to Shoreacres and its Par 3’s?

[Bradley Anderson]

Niall,

In my opinion Shoreacres has a better Redan and Biarritz. The Eden and the Short at Camargo have an edge over those at Shoreacres.

I haven't checked to verify it but I am pretty sure that the Redan green at Camargo is at a higher elevation than Shoreacres and the ball doesn't kick off the embankment and run for you nearly as well as it does at Shoreacres.



The Biarritz at Shoreacres also seems to run better than it does at Camargo.

The Eden and the Short at Camargo are probably the best of the entire collection. They are built on an enormous scale with severe penalty for missing the green.

[Zack Molnar]

The Redan at Camargo does not run that well until the middle of May and then again in the fall. But in the summer it will run for you without a problem as they grounds crew slowly prepares the course for the amateur qualifier in August.

The Eden is by far my favorite hole on the course. It is such a striking hole, and the penalties for missing are severe around the green, but you can easily play safely to the fairway short right and have a nice pitch on to the green if you dont want to test the 10 foot deep bunker on the right side of the green.

The biarritz is the weakest(while still very strong) of the Par threes at Camargo. They did a great job by removing the trees behind the green to make the tee shot more visually interesting, but it just doesnt strike me as much as the other three do. The land around this hole is rather mundane and does not have the same movement and excitement that the other three holes, which probably leads to the slightly underwhelmed feeling. But the tee shot is very exciting and if well struck can lead to some birdie opportunities as I think the green is one of the easier on the course.

[Kevin Jackson]

Hundreds of trees were going to be removed since last summer due to an insect disease.  I am curious to see what the visual differences are and how it has affected strategy, if at all.  It was something along the lines of like 400 tress on the whole property, if I remember correctly.

I think Camargo has some of the most underrated greens as well.  Most have a significant tilt, with great interior contouring.  The large size of the greens is great for the average golfer, but still challenging for a low handicapper looking to score really well.

[JLahrman]

Hundreds of trees were going to be removed since last summer due to an insect disease.  I am curious to see what the visual differences are and how it has affected strategy, if at all.  It was something along the lines of like 400 tress on the whole property, if I remember correctly.

I think Camargo has some of the most underrated greens as well.  Most have a significant tilt, with great interior contouring.  The large size of the greens is great for the average golfer, but still challenging for a low handicapper looking to score really well.

Do you know if the trees were removed? I can't see that tree removal would affect strategy that much. The playing corridors are pretty wide. There are a few trees here and there that can get in the way, but very few.

[Jay Flemma]

I'll try to post a sort of photo tour beginning in the next couple of days.  I need to track down a scorecard so I get the yardages somewhat right.

Until then........
Nothing pretentious about the entrance.


Here's what the routing looks like.  Camargo is on a hilly, interesting piece of property. You'll get a much better sense of that as I post hole by hole photos, though these don't often do it justice.

Great stuff, John. You can pick out the par-3s and a bunch more holes just from your over head!

[Michael Herrmann]

I coincidentally read through this entire thread a couple days ago before it got bumped back up to the first page.

Been many years since I was able to play Camargo in high school but am hoping to be able to clear my schedule enough (and keep the handicap low enough!) to play in the Am qualfiier there this coming summer.  Just an absolutely great photo tour of the course and I'll be anxious to jog my memory from some 17 years ago when I was last on site.

[Kevin Jackson]

Hundreds of trees were going to be removed since last summer due to an insect disease.  I am curious to see what the visual differences are and how it has affected strategy, if at all.  It was something along the lines of like 400 tress on the whole property, if I remember correctly.

I think Camargo has some of the most underrated greens as well.  Most have a significant tilt, with great interior contouring.  The large size of the greens is great for the average golfer, but still challenging for a low handicapper looking to score really well.

Do you know if the trees were removed? I can't see that tree removal would affect strategy that much. The playing corridors are pretty wide. There are a few trees here and there that can get in the way, but very few.

I do not know for certain, but I am fairly confident.  Last summer we cut down a bunch of trees in the areas between holes.  And as the playing season was coming to a close a lot of time was taken to find and mark all trees that would be affected by insects.  This also led to a lot of clean up in the wooded areas between holes just of fallen trees and the like (most specifically the area between 6 tee and 7 green).
I do know some trees were marked behind the 5th green (Eden) and near 6 tee on the right hand side (the only trees making that tee shot narrow).  The trees on 6 were the only ones that crept into a playing corridor really, most of the others had been removed in recent years.
I would potentially like to see what 12 would look like if the trees along the right hand side were cut back a bit, giving players an earlier view of the green and maybe tempting poor decision making.

[Dean DiBerardino]

Here's an image of Camargo in May of 1949