[Mike Hendren]

Are we?

Bogey

[Anthony Gray]

  Bogey,

  To the architects?

  Anthony

[TEPaul]

I don't know, are we? Is that the consensus opinion on here this week? If it appears to be then I have a very effective solution for the problem----let's just all jump on Doak and beat the tar out of him on some trumped up subject even if he in no way deserves it.

Or how about we beat up on Gil Hanse? He may even be over here at the World HQs of Conceptual Architecture in the next couple of weeks. Would you like me to insult him at the door and then jump all over him and beat the tar outta him to prove we aren't architect suck-ups? I'd consider doing it but he is a lot bigger than I am and the chances are pretty good he'd beat the tar outta me.

But I'll do anything for the cause---U'all know that I hope!


Or alternatively, how about this entire website just praise the hell outta TomF and Rees for a solid month or so to prove we are equal opportunity analysts?

Better yet, I was talking to Jeff Mingay the other day and he said he thinks the time has come to take a whole new fresh look at the body of work of RTJ and Dick Wilson. I agree with him. It seems to me this website has tried to concentrate on their negatives too much. Why don't we start looking carefully at their positives? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Someone needs to post a U Tube of that scene from Pretty Woman in the Rodeo Drive Store - where Richard Gere says "We are going to need some serious sucking up here, serious sucking up!"

I haven't experienced any of that here, but I am sure TD, CC and a few others have different experiences........

I agree that it is only a matter of time before the gca of the 50's, then 60's gets more serious attention for its merits.  Everything in the USA is just a trend or fad that passes (and later comes back) since we about nothing if not renewal.....unless its nostalgia.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:

Mingay is just looking for a prolific architect for whom he can become the go-to restoration architect.  But, if YOU have some fresh insight into the works of Mr. Jones and Mr. Wilson, please, start the thread.  I'm not sure I will be on your side there, but we desperately need something new to talk about.

[Charlie Goerges]

Jeff, If this isn't sucking up, I don't know what is!!! 

[Anthony Gray]

  I do know I want the seat next to Mike Young after and before a round of golf.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  I love it when Kavanaugh starts a new thread.


    Anthony

[PCCraig]

Someone needs to post a U Tube of that scene from Pretty Woman in the Rodeo Drive Store - where Richard Gere says "We are going to need some serious sucking up here, serious sucking up!"

I haven't experienced any of that here, but I am sure TD, CC and a few others have different experiences........

I agree that it is only a matter of time before the gca of the 50's, then 60's gets more serious attention for its merits.  Everything in the USA is just a trend or fad that passes (and later comes back) since we about nothing if not renewal.....unless its nostalgia.

Jeff-

I am playing Bellerive in STL this weekend. I will try to bring my camera and take a few pictures as I believe BCC is vastly underrated on one of the best RTJ layouts I have seen.

[PCCraig]

There sure are some HUGE suck-ups on here. However from a personal perspective I can say that I am always grateful when professional designers weigh in with their opinions as it furthers my learning exponentially.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff, If this isn't sucking up, I don't know what is!!! 

Okay Charlie, I get a small dose of sucking up.  Not enough to get the floor vaccumed but a little.......

Seriously, the other day I called a potential client and after his assistant announced who was calling, he came on the phone asking "The Jeff Brauer?"  I don't know how to respond to that!  It doesn't get old in the limited doses I get it, but I sense that TD can easily get tired of it.  When played golf together, there was another gca poster and a writer.  He left dinner early.  Tired? Yes, but I got the feeling he was really tired of the same old questions, glowing reports of his work, general gca conversation, etc.  I suppose when you get a steady diet of it, it can become tiresome, but its something I will never know first hand.....

BTW, I do agree with TD that we desparately need something here to talk about.  At least, my interest level goes down.  And, I think the TEPaul "Big World" theory where we discuss architecture rather than defend a few and trash others would be a great start.  Its not like "Doak, CC, Golden Age guys all good, JOnes, Fazio, all bad"  There really is good and bad about each individual hole, or at least a theory behind the design that stresses one thing over another.

[Anthony Gray]

  As far as Jeff Brauer..... I love the Bobby Knight jacket from the 80's.

  Anthony

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom P:

Mingay is just looking for a prolific architect for whom he can become the go-to restoration architect. 

Really?!

This is news to me, Tom. Interesting how a casual conversation with Tom Paul, about golf architecture and its history, lead to this strange accusation.

[Peter Pallotta]

Bogey -

To be honest, I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that you of all people would start a thread like this.

I call these types of threads "meta-threads", i.e. threads that discuss (gripe about, actually) the type of threads that we tend to discus here and the quality of our discussions about those discussions....

It seems to me that nothing good ever comes from these kind of threads.   They are the only kind of thread I don't like (well, actually, I don't much like ranking threads either)

These threads tend only to provide a forum for some posters to criticize other posters in subtle or direct ways.

It reminds me of the "access-seekers" threads/posts.  What good do they do?  Those who are here to seek access will continue to do so; those who would never think of doing that, wont.

What's left is criticism, subtle or overt.

My two cents, Bogey

Peter

[Kalen Braley]

Someone needs to post a U Tube of that scene from Pretty Woman in the Rodeo Drive Store - where Richard Gere says "We are going to need some serious sucking up here, serious sucking up!"

Jeff,

Ask and ye shall recieve...see even I can do a little sucking up too. 

The best bit is about 1.5 minutes in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGPbvOirz8I

[Craig Van Egmond]

Jeff,

    I'm sure if there was an emoticon for tongue firmly in cheek, then Tom D. would have used it.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Craig,

I'm not offended by Tom's comment. I was just surprised to see it.

The jist of my conversation with Tom Paul has to do with a question about whether or not some of RTJ's and Wilson's work is perhaps a bit "misunderstood" these days... following decades of evolutionary change and renovation of their original designs. Interesting question. I don't have a concise answer.

I'm of the opinion that most golf architecture should be preserved for the sake of variety. As you know, the wonderful variety of courses throughout the world is one of the most appealing aspects of golf. Therefore, restoration and preservation of RTJ's and Wilson's best work should be considered in the same light as restoration and preservation of the works of Ross, Mackenzie, Tillinghast, Thompson, et al from the pre-World War II era has been over recent years...

... I have a ways to go before declaring myself an expert on RTJ and Dick Wilson though 

[PCCraig]

The jist of my conversation with Tom Paul has to do with a question about whether or not some of RTJ's and Wilson's work is perhaps a bit "misunderstood" these days... following decades of evolutionary change and renovation of their original designs. Interesting question. I don't have a concise answer.

How are they misunderstood?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Jeff,

    Between RTJ and Wilson there has got be somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 courses! Surely some percentage of those are worth saving and preserving. Which ones?  

    Just think somewhere out there is a little baby boy or girl who will grow up to be the Tom Doak restoration expert.

[Mike Hendren]

Bogey -

To be honest, I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that you of all people would start a thread like this.

Peter

Peter, that's the best compliment I've ever received on this site.   Your point is well taken, however.  I simply tire of posters fawning over the first photo posted of dirt scraped at some new course under construction. - perhaps jockeying for an invite down the road.  

I must also admit to being a little crabby these days as I have been recruited to handle a few distressed residential subdivision loans - something I vowed to never do again 17 years ago.  

I appreciated your comment.

Kindest regards,

Bogey

[Anthony Gray]

  Bogey,

  No need to apoligize..I love the thread....I don't think you are the one in a bad mood...Enjoy your weeked in Tampa...Sieze the day.......Buy some stock...Eric and I will post some pics next week.

  Anthony

[Eric Smith]

Here's a little somethin' to cheer you up Bogey:



Go Vols!

[Anthony Gray]

Here's a little somethin' to cheer you up Bogey:



Go Vols!

  Way to put on the foil Eric.

   Anthony

[Charlie Goerges]

Jeff B. Don't let my sucking up go to your head, I sucked up at least as much to Shivas and Goodale as I did to you!


Jeff and Tom D. and anyone else who's voiced the opinion that we don't have anything to talk about on here I say 

Since I joined GCA last fall, I've barely been able to keep up with all of the threads that I've found interesting. I suppose it's tough when you've been around a long time, but I'm glad the "old-timers" have stuck around. If GCA were 1500 people with my level of knowledge, this board would be like the sound of one hand clapping.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Charlie,

I think we all go through phases of interest and disinterest even if the discussion remains the same.  Many topics will eventually come round again if you stay long enough.  At least your design contest on a real site was different!  Many had proposed that over the years but none that I recall had pulled it off.

Now we have a mutual suck up club going on!

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