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Jim Lipstate

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2020, 08:18:49 AM »
Human nature seems to dictate that some are more thoughtful and considerate than others. Repairing ball marks on a green is akin to returning shopping carts at the grocery store or just leaving them willy-nilly scattered around the parking lot taking up spaces and dinging car doors. I sometimes play a mind game watching customers in the parking lot and guessing who returns their carts and who doesn’t based on their dress and mannerisms. It is usually pretty easy to pick out the scofflaws. Bet the same goes if one took the time to observe who repairs ball marks and divots and who doesn’t.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2020, 12:28:30 PM »
I got to thinking about this some more.

It seems that the rule of etiquette about repairing ball marks was not enacted until the 1950s (Dark Ages!).  I'm looking back through my Hutchinson, etc., to see if there's mention of it as a Golden Age practice.  What if we did away with the practice as an artifact?

We could be done with our golf faster.  If it takes 15 seconds to repair a ball mark – and longer if you do a Zen job – then over 18 holes you could save 5 minutes per round – more if you’re one of these gardeners who’s in the habit of repairing extra marks.

We could delight in more unfairness.  Do we distort the spirit of the game by sanitizing the greens to the point where they’re true, but entirely dull and predictable?  Is this what we’ve come to expect from watching TV golf?  Is the fetish of true-rolling putts just another pernicious influence of the American emphasis on “fairness” and the card and pencil?  If we stopped repairing ball marks entirely, creating random micro-hummocks, might this not lead to future generations of golfer not expecting such manicured conditions, being more accepting of bad luck and the (literal) rub of the green, and gaining a bit more enlightenment about the game?


Feel free to play that way at your club and if it turns out well, spread the gospel and see who you can convert...

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2020, 01:14:08 PM »
Intended as a parody of the woke golfer, David.  Guess I missed the mark if I have to explain it.  Or The Wokeness is more deeply embedded than I've imagined.  I have no answers to Ira's question.  I probably fix 4x the marks that I make.  Personally I don't like the idea of "group holes" for fear that it would encourage the mentality that it's someone else's job to come along and clean up after you. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2020, 01:18:34 PM »
I was thinking why not implement a 'stick' based solution, as opposed to the carrot.  Threaten a Ball Mark Repair Assessment if they don't get their shit together...  ;D

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2020, 02:25:42 PM »
I once, half tongue in cheek, proposed placing a hidden camera in a tree behind a green.  We could observe those hitting the green and ignoring ball marks.  We would then show the the tape at dinner, perhaps with an appropriate voice over.  Might be a fun way to create peer pressure.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 01:14:42 PM by SL_Solow »

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2020, 04:34:58 PM »
"Broken tees left behind" problem is EASY to fix...stop giving away free tees and people will pick up usable used tees....even broken one for par 3's.  Before late 1970's and early 80's no club gave away tees...then ANGC started it and everyone does it in the USA...dumbest thing ever.  No free tees avail in Australia...and no broken tees left behind

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2020, 08:17:22 PM »
Getting folks to fix ball marks is just half the battle.  Getting them to use the proper technique your greens is the other half.  A lot of golfers I know fix marks the way many of the pros do . . . of course, the pros aren't playing on their own courses.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2020, 08:25:20 PM »
Ira,  Keep fighting the good fight.   I have been on our committee foe 28 years and served as chair.  Same roles for our regional association which has its own agronomist and and the superintendents confirm that they all have similar problems.  Even my Dad was a greens chair at his clubs and we had a problem in the 70's.  The problem is universal.  We have implemented every one of the suggestions made here and they help, but the problem persists,  Some of us will play a late round and spend as much time fixing marks as playing.  You just have to keep working at it understanding that the problem won't go away.  For the classicists think of Sisyphus.


I suspect that the irony is lost on most- reference the thread on a proposed redevelopment of a Seattle muni into high density affordable housing- but we've been rolling bolders uphill for decades only to watch them roll back down, over and over again.  If history repeats as it often does, in 10 years the city won't have a golf course or an area of housing that while "affordable" is mostly unlivable.   A culture which demands personal responsibility is the only solution to the much wider problem.


My home club has firm TifEagle greens which don't mark easily, but when the sun hits them just right, they look like moonscapes.  We also have bins of plastic tees that our members reach into for a handful at a time and proceed to leave them on the tees, fairways, bunkers, the floor of the locker room, the parking lot, etc.  The offenders are of all ages, occupations, economic status; some are people I know and like, but .......  Pre-Covid, I would pick up tees and trash, fix multiple ball marks, rake bunkers which were skipped by uncaring members.  I now mostly just tap down the worst ball marks, leave range balls scattered throughout the course, and otherwise try to stop thinking about the shortcomings of human nature.  It is just too depressing.


I have seen a club culture at two places where you don't find tees laying around, whole or broken, unfixed ball marks, and trash on the course.  My hosts at the two clubs, Crystal Downs and The Golf Club, made short, general comments in the front end about the expectations of its members, and led by example.  At TGC, the member found a cellophane wrapper in the rough, put it in his pocket, and proceeded after the round to present it to the GM with a couple short comments.  The GM, no other than the late Fred Taylor, by then the former basketball coach of Ohio State's NCAAA champions, thanked him for bringing the matter to his attention.   
     
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 08:32:50 PM by Lou_Duran »

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2020, 10:05:46 PM »
The woke guys are fighting the groomed and manicured look.  Too Dark Ages.  Although . . . might make a difference if some artisan could offer hand-crafted hickory green tools with bespoke color patterns to match the ferrules and hickory alignment rods.
Bernie, I'll just leave this here
https://shop.acontinuouslean.com/productot-repair-widget
bahahahah +100 you are the winner sir!
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2020, 09:32:06 AM »
I will admit that I have an obsession with repairing ball marks and replacing divots. It’s how I was taught when I started playing golf in 7th grade — you make a pitch mark or take a divot, you repair it. I don’t mind being a good citizen and fixing a few extras in addition to my own on each hole. I know there are others who do the same. But it does become exasperating when playing in the evening and having to spend more time repairing damage caused by lazy and inconsiderate fellow golfers than focusing on my own golf game.

I think the only solution, if educating others does not work, is to resort to public shaming of those who are too lazy, too disrespectful, or just too ignorant to leave the course in better shape than they found it.

I wish we lived in Scotland or Melbourne and I could play a course where making ball marks is a non-issue. But until that becomes reality, I will continue to do my best to leave the course in better shape than I find it.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 09:36:37 AM by BHoover »

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2020, 03:04:42 PM »
Dividing the golfing membership into 18 groups with green assigned to each group (suggested by others) is the only thing I have seen that works...and it works better if there is a "contest" involved.  At the end of there season have the green chair, head pro and green superintendant select the green that they feel was in best condition throughout the season and give a "prize" to the members of that group.  $ and prizes work!!  and from what I have seen the diligent members will continue to fix all 18 greens...and most of the others will at least work on their one green...which is much better than working on NONE.  In the big picture, cost of prizes is peanuts.


This was the essence of our proposal 10 years ago and it got over with the members "like a fart in church".


We even showed the "ROI" with the super as he was spending staff OT fixing ball marks.


I gave up.


The fact that so many players/members DO NOT fix their pitch marks (and divots" disgusts me.

Alfonso Erhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2020, 12:27:03 PM »


We undertook a very detailed analysis in our club in Madrid, Spain on this subject some 3-4 years ago and we reached a number of conclusions:

1. Most people don't know how to properly fix a pitchmark and many of the scars on greens are a result of poorly fixed marks. We placed a video on our website and the TV in the proshop, included diagrams with proper technique on the back of scorecards, had the starter remind each group, etc. Nothing worked to remedy this (at least at a measurable scale).

2. Older people tend to fix less pitchmarks than younger ones. The main reason is their lower ball flight generally results in a pitchmark that is harder to find as it is not close to where the ball comes to rest (out of the green in many instances). This is also true of people playing in carts vs. walkers.



Things that did work:
- Short term remedy for improving the number of pitchmarks on the green: on the days of more traffic, place pins front of the green. Most players underclub and will miss the green short.
- We ran an experimental sign as shown below. We measured and this resulted in a 40% reduction of unrepaired pitchmarks (although many were still not properly repaired).

Summary: a difficult problem to solve. Just try to keep greens as firm as possible and if not, use front pin locations for a while....




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Repairing Ball Marks
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2020, 02:50:23 PM »
Maybe a webcam or similar with record facility positioned to watch over the worst green for pitchmarks on the course.
A quick review each day to establish an example of non-repair and then a daily email featuring a short video clip of the non-repair incident showing the transgressor to all the membership.
Ridicule can work wonders and others won't want to be embarrassed in public either.
:)
atb




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