[Neil_Crafter]

I have now heard back from Ray Haddock concerning the Eden and the Spirit of St Andrews. Apparently the trade edition of Spirit was edited by the Sleeping Bear Press people (not by him) and the "(Mackenzie and H.S.Colt)" line was added by them. This edition was "considerably edited" in his words. He says it does not appear in the limited collectors edition which was printed verbatim.

Ray's comment was that the Eden was a Colt design with Mackenzie as his kind of assistant and he was on site. I'm not sure how he knows this.

I am very disappointed to hear about the amount of editing in the standard edition and I am now going to have to buy an expensive collectors edition (around US$200 or so) to find out what Mackenzie himself actually wrote and what were the words of the SBP editors. A scandal I say!

[Neil_Crafter]

Some information just to hand - I have recently found the newspaper archives for The Augusta Chronicle online, via a link on the Augusta Public Library's website.

In a couple of interesting references to Mackenzie, O. B. Keeler (has a golf writer ever had better initials than these?!) in the front page announcement of the plans for the new course, with Jones, Mackenzie and Wendell Miller all on site, describes Mackenzie and his designs, mentioning Sunningdale iin the process. As Mackenzie was there, you would imagine that the Dr would have been Keeler's source for this information.

"To this beautiful site Dr Mackenzie brings an experience that literally covers the world. The loveliest golf course of all the wondrous array in California is his pet design - Cypress Point near Del Monte. In the British Isles, major championships go regularly to his creations at Troon and Prestwick and the Royal St. George's at Sandwich; at Moortown and at Sunningdale. Dr. Mackenzie is the designer of the famous Jockey Club course in Buenos Aires, and of courses in Australia and New Zealand - no man living or dead has the range of this Scottish genius in the design of golfing layouts in all parts of the world."

The second of these is from 4th Novemebr 1931 in a column "Just Between Us" by Harold Stephens, who quotes from the same article by Keeler.

Given Keeler's access to Dr Mackenzie, this is highly likely to be first hand information from Mackenzie. Should it be given any weight or not?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Neil another excellent find.

Let us be clear these reports suggest MacKenzie assisted Colt on these courses.  Nothing has changed the primary attribution of the courses and at this distance we can only speculate how much MacKenzie they contain.


My summation of the significance would be.

“MacKenzie assisted Colt with the Eden and Sunningdale New.  At that time Colt was at the height of his powers and both projects were close to his heart. No other great architect has such a history of successful collaboration, from Rolland to Ross, and it is inconceivable that on these two projects he would have allowed any work he was unhappy with. Nevertheless it is interesting to speculate what MacKenzie brought to the team.  Respected sources have suggested that the bold greens at the Eden show his influence. Formal collaboration would come a decade later.”



Colt had known Mackenzie for six or seven years by then and had been working closely with Alison for 3 or 4 years.  I believe he made a good deal of money form his Golf activities allowing him to move to a country house in the middle of the war.  It seems to me that the business was expanding so fast that he may have set up the ’merger’ earlier had world events not intervened.  By the early twenties there was so much work he had to organise a larger firm.  I doubt we'll ever know, but was Morrison supposed to be a fourth partner or a replacement for MacKenzie?  If the former it may have been another reason for the split.  I wonder if companies house would have records? If they were all directors then the dates of registration might tell us more.

Speculating further I see Mackenzie’s formation of the construction company with his brother as being significant in the split. Colt was absolutely clear with Suttons that he didn’t want to have anything to do with this type of arrangement.  He felt Architect and Contractor should be at arms length and MacKenzie obviously felt differently. It didn’t seem to work out as well as he hoped and opportunities to travel and divorce led him to move on again.






Edit

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Sometime this summer I'll get there.

[Sean_A]

Neil another excellent find.

Let us be clear these reports suggest MacKenzie assisted Colt on these courses.  Nothing has changed the primary attribution of the courses and at this distance we can only speculate how much MacKenzie they contain.


My summation of the significance would be.

“MacKenzie assisted Colt with the Eden and Sunningdale New.  At that time Colt was at the height of his powers and both projects were close to his heart. No other great architect has such a history of successful collaboration, from Rolland to Ross, and it is inconceivable that on these two projects he would have allowed any work he was unhappy with. Nevertheless it is interesting to speculate what MacKenzie brought to the team.  Respected sources have suggested that the bold greens at the Eden show his influence. Formal collaboration would come a decade later.”



Colt had known Mackenzie for six or seven years by then and had been working closely with Alison for 3 or 4 years.  I believe he made a good deal of money form his Golf activities allowing him to move to a country house in the middle of the war.  It seems to me that the business was expanding so fast that he may have set up the ’merger’ earlier had world events not intervened.  By the early twenties there was so much work he had to organise a larger firm.  I doubt we'll ever know, but was Morrison supposed to be a fourth partner or a replacement for MacKenzie?  If the former it may have been another reason for the split.  I wonder if companies house would have records? If they were all directors then the dates of registration might tell us more.

Speculating further I see Mackenzie’s formation of the construction company with his brother as being significant in the split. Colt was absolutely clear with Suttons that he didn’t want to have anything to do with this type of arrangement.  He felt Architect and Contractor should be at arms length and MacKenzie obviously felt differently. It didn’t seem to work out as well as he hoped and opportunities to travel and divorce led him to move on again.






Edit

Companies House

from the website   http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/contact/londonInfo.shtml

Company Searches

The public search room allows access to statutory information through its on-line system.

All documents filed since April 1995 are instantly available from our image database. Earlier documents can be ordered via the Scan Upon Demand Service (delivered within 2 hours of ordering) or by ordering the microfiche, which is available for collection from 8.30am the next working day when ordered by 3.30pm. Alternatively the microfiche will be despatched on the day of order and delivered by post. For more information on products and services, please call our contact centre on +44 (0)303 1234 500.



Sometime this summer I'll get there.

Tony

I think the separation of archie/builder must have been a business decision for Colt because he did have favouries for construction work such as Franks Harrris Bros. I can't see how this is all that different from a working perspective to having a construction division of the company.  The split may just be down to two strong willed people.  Knowing Colt's religious tendencies, don't you think Dr Mac's troubles up in Leeds could be as good a reason as any for the split?  These two guys just don't seem like they should be partners - if you know what  mean. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Some information just to hand - I have recently found the newspaper archives for The Augusta Chronicle online, via a link on the Augusta Public Library's website.

In a couple of interesting references to Mackenzie, O. B. Keeler (has a golf writer ever had better initials than these?!) in the front page announcement of the plans for the new course, with Jones, Mackenzie and Wendell Miller all on site, describes Mackenzie and his designs, mentioning Sunningdale iin the process. As Mackenzie was there, you would imagine that the Dr would have been Keeler's source for this information.

"To this beautiful site Dr Mackenzie brings an experience that literally covers the world. The loveliest golf course of all the wondrous array in California is his pet design - Cypress Point near Del Monte. In the British Isles, major championships go regularly to his creations at Troon and Prestwick and the Royal St. George's at Sandwich; at Moortown and at Sunningdale. Dr. Mackenzie is the designer of the famous Jockey Club course in Buenos Aires, and of courses in Australia and New Zealand - no man living or dead has the range of this Scottish genius in the design of golfing layouts in all parts of the world."

The second of these is from 4th Novemebr 1931 in a column "Just Between Us" by Harold Stephens, who quotes from the same article by Keeler.

Given Keeler's access to Dr Mackenzie, this is highly likely to be first hand information from Mackenzie. Should it be given any weight or not?

Neil

I know nothing about Sunningdale, New or Old, but in the above quote Mackenzie was extremely economical with the truth if he said or implied to OB that Troon, Prestwick and Royal St. Georges were "his creations."

Rich

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sean I do it see it slightly differently.

 Yes Colt always suggested to prospective Clients they use Suttons Seeds and Franks Harris, because he believed they were the best. He often went further, suggested greenkeepers and supplied foremen to supervise cosnstruction. It caused him trouble to explain he was on a retainer from Suttons but that he would not get a commission on any sales.  It was then upto the client if they took Colt’s advice or not.

Carter’s often offered a “system” effectively a turnkey single price. They paid the architect and the contractors and tried to make 10%, plus the profit on the seed.  Colt didn’t like that way of working and several tiems resisted Suttons suggestin that they go down that route.  IN practice it may not be that different but his position is beyond doubt.

Colt seemingly could work with anyone; at least two of his collaborators were know to be extremely thirsty men. All evidence suggests he was not a pub man.  I also think the marital problems surfaced a little later. Colt wrote a warm and complimentary introdcution to MacKenzies book just a couple of years before the partnership. However I agree with you that they do not seem like a natural fit. .  It’s just a feeling but I think MacKenzie was too much his own man to be happy in any team long term.  He seems to have had a number of personal and professional partnerships.  Can anyone pin him down to anyone way of life for more than about 7 years at a time? (Admittedly we can hardly hold him responsible for being ‘on tour’ 1914-18).



Rich, Colt might have merited 'modest', not so his one time partner.

[Sean_A]

Sean I do it see it slightly differently.

 Yes Colt always suggested to prospective Clients they use Suttons Seeds and Franks Harris, because he believed they were the best. He often went further, suggested greenkeepers and supplied foremen to supervise cosnstruction. It caused him trouble to explain he was on a retainer from Suttons but that he would not get a commission on any sales.  It was then upto the client if they took Colt’s advice or not.

Carter’s often offered a “system” effectively a turnkey single price. They paid the architect and the contractors and tried to make 10%, plus the profit on the seed.  Colt didn’t like that way of working and several tiems resisted Suttons suggestin that they go down that route.  IN practice it may not be that different but his position is beyond doubt.

Colt seemingly could work with anyone; at least two of his collaborators were know to be extremely thirsty men. All evidence suggests he was not a pub man.  I also think the marital problems surfaced a little later. Colt wrote a warm and complimentary introdcution to MacKenzies book just a couple of years before the partnership. However I agree with you that they do not seem like a natural fit. .  It’s just a feeling but I think MacKenzie was too much his own man to be happy in any team long term.  He seems to have had a number of personal and professional partnerships.  Can anyone pin him down to anyone way of life for more than about 7 years at a time? (Admittedly we can hardly hold him responsible for being ‘on tour’ 1914-18).



Rich, Colt might have merited 'modest', not so his one time partner.

Tony

Architecture was a small world back then.  I wonder if talk about Dr Mac wasn't about before his official troubles.  Its not like he was a well loved man...  Colt was a clever man.  I get the real impression that Dr Mac was never really part of the Colt gang.  Colt probably got to keep an eye on Dr Mac and Dr Mac got to use Colt's name if not some connections.  Sort of a marriage of convenience rather than a proper partnership.  I too always wondered if Dr Mac kicked on partly because he wasn't getting the glamour work down near London or on the links as Colt's partner.  It just seems as though Colt had the market cornered on the top jobs and Dr Mac was on the fringes with nowhere to go except out of the country unless Colt made something happen for Dr Mac. Of course this is all supposition, but something wasn't right about their partnership especially when you consider how Alison and Morrison worked with Colt. 

I know what you are saying about the different working practices, but Colt seemed to get his way more often than not and so it probably wasn't deemed necessary to create a construction division of the company.  So from this perspective it wasn't so different except for the client thinking he had a choice of builders - tee hee.  In reality, how many clients are going to hire Colt as the archie and not take his recos for construction (and seeding for the matter)?  Colt was very much seen as an expert in all aspects of golf courses.  This is one of the main reasons why he was the first real professional architect as we think of them today. 

This discussion really hits home on how much the new Colt book misses out and how much work needs to be done to produce a proper book. 

Ciao

[Neil_Crafter]

Tony, Sean and Rich
Thanks for the replies on this.

Rich if I can answer your comment first:
Troon - Mackenzie designed the New, later to be named Portland course there. I believe he designed at least a bunker on the 10th at the championship course, so him claiming "Troon" is certainly justifiable to an extent, although saying Troon Portland would have been full disclosure on his part.

Prestwick - Mackenzie claimed work at Prestwick in his 1923 and 1929 brochures and wrote of Prestwick in 'Spirit of St Andrews' (p91), "Some years ago I advised the Prestwick Club, who owned a magnificent piece of links land and had one of the most famous of the British Championship courses, regarding new 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th holes. The committee decided to carry out the work themselves. The general opinion of the club is that the changes have been a great improvement on the old holes, but I know, and doubtless other golf architects know, that they have made a complete mess of some marvellous natural golfing country. I was particularly distressed regarding the 11th hole. I visualised it as becoming the most famous of all one-shot holes, whereas the design and construction has been so badly carried out that it is a very indifferent hole."
But certainly a stretch to suggest he designed the course.

"Royal St George's - Mackenzie certainly undertook some remodelling work here. DSH list as a revision from 1925, as does C&W but with no date. Mackenzie in 'Spirit of St Andrews' (p123) says, "Royal St. George's in Sandwich, which we redesigned…." DSH think that the 9th green which was a new green moved back behind the existing was a Mackenzie design, as was probably the new 17th green, also moved back. Both these relocations were noted by Darwin (1925) but with no mention of the architect.
Again certainly a stretch to suggest he designed the course. Not a total lie, but not exactly full disclosure either.

In summary, Mackenzie could demonstrate an involvement with all these clubs, so why would Sunningdale be the odd one out. I'm willing to think he did have some involvement with Colt at S New.

Tony
I think Mackenzie's partnership with Colt and Alison began in 1919, shortly after the war had ended. By 1923 Mackenzie was announcing his own firm in a new brochure which stated that:

"The four years Agreement of Partnership between Messrs. Colt, Mackenzie & Alison having terminated, it has been decided that the conditions prevailing before the partnership shall be resumed."

From the sound of this the Agreement only ever had a 4 year lifespan - I suppose it could have been extended if all parties had wanted to, but clearly they didn't and I'm sure the decision not to extend was mutual.

Tony, I think you are right, the 7 year itch perhaps?

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks Neil.  I knew most of what you said, but would not at all call any of those courses "his creations," as Keeler did, probably on Mackenzie's word, as it is unlikely that anybody else would have made such a misinformed statement.

[Neil_Crafter]

Rich
I am sure Keeler took Mackenzie's word on the courses he listed and the countries he had worked in. Of course some of them are not entirely truthful and I would not call those courses his creations either, as Keeler was led to believe, but as there is an element of truth in that all these clubs/courses were his clients, the inclusion of Sunningdale cannot be dismissed out of hand I think.

Now, all we need is some actual evidence rather than supposition 

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Neil.  I'll end my hijack by agreeing to disagree.

Now, anybody who can answer Neil's questions about Sunningdale New with facts or even informed opinion, please speak up!

Rich

[Neil_Crafter]

Rich
I thought I was agreeing with you - sort of!

And I don't think you have hijacked anything, that is precisely the sort of discussion that Keeler's comments (and Mac's information to him) warrants.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Let's hope Tom Birkett see's this.  The Centenary History that Sunningdale put out was shockingly bad. 


Colt hardly changed the old?...............NOT (thanks Borat).

Sunningdale need a club historian and they should buy a copy of the Walton Heath history to see what might have been. What a history they have and how little they seem to realise it.


Neil I think you have provided more proof that Mac was there, than many a "MacKenzie" course has done to prove it's designer. It would be a fortunate discovery indeed that revealed exactly what role he played there. I know you'll keep looking.

[Sean_A]

Let's hope Tom Birkett see's this.  The Centenary History that Sunningdale put out was shockingly bad. 


Colt hardly changed the old?...............NOT (thanks Borat).

Sunningdale need a club historian and they should buy a copy of the Walton Heath history to see what might have been. What a history they have and how little they seem to realise it.


Neil I think you have provided more proof that Mac was there, than many a "MacKenzie" course has done to prove it's designer. It would be a fortunate discovery indeed that revealed exactly what role he played there. I know you'll keep looking.

Colt changed the Old, but the bones are most definitely Park Jr.  At best the Old should be seen as a joint design rather than a Colt.

Ciao

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