[Anthony Gray]

  It is very interesting listening to opinions on resent threads concerning playability and dificulty.

  I was talking in person to a member on this site a couple months ago about 14 at Bandon Trails. I stated I liked that hole. He said that his father has never finished that hole. It gave me another perspective.

  So what are some of the things about design that you consider unfair? And please post pictures of examples.

  Thanks........ Anthony

[JESII]

The only "unfair" feature I have seen is when the second shot fairway on #4 at Merion shifts one way or the other once you have struck the ball on your layup...the fairway actually moves.

[Sean_A]

The only "unfair" feature I have seen is when the second shot fairway on #4 at Merion shifts one way or the other once you have struck the ball on your layup...the fairway actually moves.

Jim

It moved left on me leaving a downhill shot from thick green soup.  I suspect the direction the fairway will move depends on the phases of the moon - proper local knowledge.

Ciao 

[jeffwarne]

The only "unfair" feature I have seen is when the second shot fairway on #4 at Merion shifts one way or the other once you have struck the ball on your layup...the fairway actually moves.

Jim

It moved left on me leaving a downhill shot from thick green soup.  I suspect the direction the fairway will move depends on the phases of the moon - proper local knowledge.

Ciao 

No different than playing the windmill hole at your local Putt-putt.
Timing, all about timing.

I do think it's rather unfair I can't play AGNC this weekend

[John Moore II]

What do I think is unfair? Nothing. Some things are more difficult than others, but not unfair.

[Anthony Gray]

What do I think is unfair? Nothing. Some things are more difficult than others, but not unfair.

 I feel the same way. One thing I do not like (I will post photos later) that if the design takes away one shot it needs to allow for an other. Example..If a tree takes away a high shot then the angle of the fairway should allow a low appraoch.

  Anthony

[Phil Benedict]

Hole locations where it is impossible to stop a downhill putt, unless you make it.  Downhill putts are supposed to be more exacting than uphill putts, but they shouldn't be impossible to stop close to the hole if properly struck.

As an example, I thought the hole location on the 18th at Olympic when Payne Stewart came to grief was unfair, and so was the Redan at Shinnecock in '06 on the last day.

[Kalen Braley]

The closest thing that I truly thought was "unfair" was that pin location on the 18th at the US Open at Olympic a number of years back.

Guys putting up the hill and then having the ball return to thier feet.  Others with sidehill putts couldn't stop the ball anywhere near the hole and their putts ended up dozens of feet away.  And this was happening to the best players in the world, not at some weekend warrior beer-induced cartball scramble tourney.

[Lester George]

Jim,

You came close to my standard answer when people ask (or tell) me about "fair".  My response is "unless the target is moving locations while your swinging the club, it's fair".

Lester

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jim..
All I can say is
and I relate 100%

[archie_struthers]

 


really have changed my thinking as time goes on ,  now the one thing I can honestly say is  a par four where you have to hit 7 iron off the tee to lay up and  then have 220+  to the green.  Might not actually  be unfair but is muy stupido  !  LOL

[tlavin]

Blind shots over water.

[Rich Goodale]

Blind shots over hills with 200+yards of water on the other side where the only play is to hit a gap wedge to the top of the hill and then blast a 3-wood across the water to a volcano green with shaved sides surounded by waste areas filled with Canada Geese and their excretions, and wehnyou get to the green, the hole is only 1" wide and it is impossible to get more than 1/2 of the ball under ground....

...oh yeah, and everything is fast and firm too.

[Eric Smith]

 ...design that you consider unfair? And please post pictures of examples.

[Peter Pallotta]

Anthony -

I read a modern philosopher a while back who argued that the trouble with our current thinking about ethics and morality is that it's been shaped by the language and practices of the marketplace.  He wasn't criticizing the marketplace; he was suggesting that its basic principle (e.g. a fair exchange of goods and services) was not as transferable to the ethical realm as we've collectively assumed it to be.  In fact, it has marked a devolution in our understanding of the meaning and power of morality, and in the efficacy of the free moral act.  Which is to say, I'm guessing that the concept of (and growing desire for) fairness in golf has something to do with the ever-increasing influence of the marketplace, broadly understood.          

Archie - Yes! Muy stupido, and invariably an ugly-looking golf hole to boot.

Peter

[Tim Bert]

Fair only comes in to play when competing with others.  Isn't fair really about equal treatment. How are absurdly difficult or unreasonable features or pin locations unfair if each competitor faces the same conditions?  I have never understood this.

Different weather conditions in morning or afternoon or different putting conditions in morning or afternoon or different courses on different days (Torrey or the PB Pro-Am) - those can all be unfair though they are part of the game.

Handwatering a slick par 3 green after some groups but not all groups - definitely unfair.

A particular course or hole or pin position - don't see how these could ever be deemed unfair.

If you are playing by yourself some overly difficult features may be unfun, but I don't understand the term unfair in an individual context.

[BCrosby]

Good post Tim.

Golf courses, like catchers mitts, are inanimate objects. When is a catcher's mitt unfair? The same answer applies to golf courses.

There are holes that are too hard to enjoy playing and there are badly designed holes. But golf holes, like catchers mitts, are incapable of being unfair. Or fair.

Bob

[Gary Slatter]

I used to think it unfair that tour players used clubs and balls that were not on the market, but now I don't care about that.   On the course I feel there are tough things and easy things, and sure sometimes pin locations are"unfair" but when you really think about it, nothing is unfair as long as everyone has to play the same layout. Sure it's unfair that some people have a lot more talent but who can we blame for that?  There are some bad designs but we can walk away.  Maybe it's unfair that some can't walk but heck, golfers can enjoy the game wherever it occurs.
How can anything be unfair after seeing Slumdog?

[JLahrman]

I realize that sometimes you'll get a good break or a bad break, but unfair to me is when a good shot and bad shot get the same result. 

[Bart Bradley]

Similar to early posts...but if you putt your ball up a hill and it reaches the hole or passes it and then it starts rolling back down to you....that is unfair.

Bart

[BCrosby]

I realize that sometimes you'll get a good break or a bad break, but unfair to me is when a good shot and bad shot get the same result. 

Let's assume you hit a beautiful drive in the middle of the fw. Your opponent tops his shot, but it rolls next to your ball. You play your second perfectly to the middle of the green. Your opponent tops his shot again, it rolls through a bunker and comes to rest next to your ball. You both two putt for par.

You are feeling a little miffed. But in what sense is the hole to blame for the outcome? In what sense was the hole unfair?

Look, the concepts of fairness and luck are joined at the hip. If you think "fairness" is of signal importance, then you probably also think "luck" is a big problem.

I think the better way to go is to get over both ideas. At least in the context of golf.

Bob  

[BCrosby]

Similar to early posts...but if you putt your ball up a hill and it reaches the hole or passes it and then it starts rolling back down to you....that is unfair.

Bart

Or maybe it's much simpler than that. Maybe it's just a very difficult green.

[Bart Bradley]

Mr. Crosby:

So how far would the ball have to roll back to go beyond difficult to unfair....let's say you have a 30 ft uphill putt...you putt the ball, it misses a few inches on the right and goes 1 foot past the hole and then starts rolling back towards you.  If it rolls back all 30 ft (or anything past a couple of feet), isn't that unfair?  It certainly isn't fun!

Bart

[BCrosby]

Bart -

See my post above. There is no sliding scale. That green will never be unfair. The green is merely very difficult.

Calling a green/hole/ course unfair is what a philosophy professor would call a category mistake. It's a logical non-starter.

Or you might see it as an improper anthropomorphism. Sort of like saying a cup of coffee is sad.

Bob

[Ian_L]

A hole is unfair if a certain type of player is physically incapable of finishing it (e.g. a 160-yard carry off the tee with no alternative).  See Squaw Creek G.C.

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