[TEPaul]

This subject just came to me after I read Bradley Anderson's latest post about putting in a pipe drain underground in a green with a cap to drain out water on sections of a green that tend to freeze with standing water and do winter turf damage.

The hole in question that might be a fascinating restoration (but with inherent problems for the reasons Bradley just gave) is Myopia's old #10.

Let me give you some history on Myopia's #10.

Originally, back in the 1890s this hole was known as "The Alps". But back then it wasn't the present hole it was the hole that played from the present 10th tee directly over a massive hillside to the present 11th green. The hole was technically driveable to the green but the more common play was out to the left in front of the present 11th green.

But this was when the course was only nine holes. When the course was increased to 18 hole this tee was maintained but the hole became a medium length par 4 with a blind drive to the fairway and the new green 90 degrees in another direction to a new green about 325 yards from the old "Alps" green. I used to think this was why the hole is still referred to as "The Alps" (because of the original green).

That was not the case though----eg apparently the reason the redesigned hole (redesigned by Leeds probably around 1900) was still referred to as "The Alps" is because the approach shot to the new 10th hole iteration was completely blind over a large mound-like landform that played into a distinct bowl shaped green (viz NGLA's 16th hole).

I've been led to believe Leeds may've taken out the blind Alps mound on the approach due to criticism from the likes of Horace Hutchins in 1910 that Myopia had too many blind shots.

But it seems Leeds's original bowl shaped green was eventually redesigned much later to solve that constant problem of standing/freezing water on the green surface that did massive agronomic damage.

I'm thinking that a solution could be found today to drain out that standing water if that green was restored to its original bowl shape (ala Bradley's solution) and the Alps mound was restored to the approach shot, once again making the hole play something like NGLA's #16 still does today.

Note that this Myopia 10th hole redesign was put into play up to a decade before Macdonald created NGLA's 16th hole or his 3rd hole that has always been referred to as "The Alps."

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

I did not see Bradley Anderson's post about a drain in the green, but Karl Olson installed similar drains on many of the greens at National, including #16.  Many of the greens at National have portions that are punchbowls and might get standing water in winter which then freezes.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have seen that technique used more and more for sand bunkers. Works great.

[TEPaul]

"Many of the greens at National have portions that are punchbowls and might get standing water in winter which then freezes."

TomD:

I've never really looked at the greens at NGLA that closely to tell what areas really may not sheet drain out except for the little mid-left bowl on #1. Water couldn't possibly sheet drain out of that and I doubt it does that well on the horseshoe on #4. I've also never analyzed #16 that carefully either for sheet drainage but something tells me the water gets off the front or the right somehow.

From speaking with a member of Myopia who apparently remembers the old 10th green (or the knock on it) that thing really was a big bowl where standing and freezing water was common creating winter kill. I doubt they ever tried some of the things Bradley Anderson recommended though. They just redesigned it to what's there now. But before that Leeds apparently removed the Alps hill in the fairway on the approach thereby rendering the tradeoff of the green's bowlishness to the blind approach a bit moot.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

The idea of directional boring under a low spot on a green is something that I think might help for draining those small puddles that can develop were sand build up from bunkers may be blocking the sheet drainage off a green. But I certainly would not expect it to work for an area that is over 1,000 square feet.

Another kind of green that is vulnerable to puddles forming is the green that has wave contours. These are some of the coolest greens to putt on, but they can hold water in the swales of the waves. Those greens might be the best type of old green that this method could restore.

You don't see too many of those kinds of greens, and probably because they just had so many problems with holding surface water.

But a true punch-bowl green? I don't think it would work even if you had a man hole in the middle of it. Sorry, but that's just my gut feeling on that.

[TEPaul]

"But I certainly would not expect it to work for an area that is over 1,000 square feet."


Bradley:

Hmmm. Let's just say Myopia was willing to restore that 10th green to the way it once was (which I have absolutely zero idea if they are willing to even consider that).

I don't know what it once looked like but I've been led to believe it was a massive true bowl (of perhaps 5,000-6,000 sf). If so there may not have been any sheet drainage off any side. Since it was so early in architecture (perhaps around 1900) it may've been one of those early greens that was designed to retain water (pre-irrigation).

If they were willing to restore such a thing what do you suppose the most efficient drainage method today would be that could get this kind of standing/freezing water off of it or out of it? This (standing/freezing water and winter kill) is apparently the very reason it was redesigned many years ago.

[Tom_Doak]

Bradley:

The 10th at High Pointe is a true punchbowl green ... it was a natural punchbowl, but 95% of the green drains inward to a low spot.  I've seen a foot of water standing there after a strong rain, but only for an hour or two ... it's naturally very sandy, and we did put a perforated tile to the low point.

It's survived just fine for 20 years in a snowy climate.  So it can be done.

[Brad Tufts]

I've actually "played" that hole in the Myopia turkey shoot...Of course, one has to fire over trees with something like a 5-wood to get the ball up quick enough to clear the trees from the 10th tee.  This 225-yd shot is enough to reach the 11th fairway about 50-60 yards short of the 11th green.

There are some funky contours in the woods b/t the current 10th tee and11th green, whihc may have been part of the former hole.  I'm curious where the punchbowl green was exactly...perhaps in the huge bowl b/t the current 10 and 11...

[TEPaul]

Brad Tufts:

That isn't the green that was once the true bowl. It was the green that preceeded the present 10th green and in the same place.

What you're talking about is the original "Alps" hole that played from around the present 10th tees over the hill to the right to the present 11th green.

[Mike_DeVries]

Tom,

The idea of directional boring under a low spot on a green is something that I think might help for draining those small puddles that can develop were sand build up from bunkers may be blocking the sheet drainage off a green. But I certainly would not expect it to work for an area that is over 1,000 square feet.

Another kind of green that is vulnerable to puddles forming is the green that has wave contours. These are some of the coolest greens to putt on, but they can hold water in the swales of the waves. Those greens might be the best type of old green that this method could restore.

You don't see too many of those kinds of greens, and probably because they just had so many problems with holding surface water.

But a true punch-bowl green? I don't think it would work even if you had a man hole in the middle of it. Sorry, but that's just my gut feeling on that.

Bradley,

Kingsley has natural punchbowls on #4 (front and back of the green), #5, and #18.  These all have perforated lines underneath the surface but no catch basin drain.  The soils are very sandy and drained naturally before we built the greens and little disturbance was done to the soil profile, leaving the structure intact and functioning.  This is certainly not something that you would do anywhere but it functions very well on this site.

The 7th at Crystal Downs has two spots on the boomerang, one in front and one in back, that flood and have caused problems in the past with ice damage.  There is a drain installed now for possible winterkill but it is not open in the playing season, only used in the winter.

The directional boring you mention is interesting, as we had mainline drainage lines up to 12" HDPE installed in Winnipeg a few winters ago -- it got the main drains out to numerous spots with minimal disruption, as the only open digging was for where a catch basin was tied into the mainline.  Efficient, especially in their dense Red River gumbo that is very difficult to work with.

[Brad Tufts]

I stand corrected...didn't read the post carefully enough last night in my post-Boston St. Patrick's Day parade haze...

I have always thought that the 10 green at Myopia could have been a punchbowl, as it has clearly been tilted so water drains at the back of the green.  If all the land was used around it to push the edges out to the bunkers, it would be quite a green, much like #16 with bunker shots careening off downslopes.  I've always played #10 well, even though it is a card-killer if you miss the fairway.  The player only has a few yards of leeway to still get the "gathering" effect of both the fairway and green surrounds.

[TEPaul]

Brad:

You do understand don't you that the present 10th hole once had a very substantial topographical form at some place between an approach shot and the green? That is why they apparently continued to call the hole "Alps". It was not the same thing at all as that original Alps from the 10th tees to the present 11th green. That Alps hill was apparently removed years ago when Leeds was very much the czar of the course.

Did you also realize that the original 16th hole was a par 4 from a tee about 100 yards behind the present tees to the present green? That too was a blind shot.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom, Mike, and Tom,

We had a regional event here this winter - a lot of rainfall, at the very end of December, that froze before it had a chance to completely sheet drain off of some greens. The underlying soils were frozen solid, so there was no vertical evacuation of surface water to any types of drains unless they were open air risers that were not covered by leaves.

Bentgrass was not injured by this situation - only Poa annua was effected, and in varying degrees.

I spent the day today visiting courses that are maintained by veteren superintendents who have experienced this before on older golf courses that have, shall we say, quirky greens.

I saw several greens that actually have surface risers built in to them, and they worked. I would love to post pictures up here showing how cool this was, but I didn't think of asking permission.

Anyways, you gotta love the ingenuity of these superintendents. 

One thing I did notice is a lot of caving in around the holes. But they assured me that this only happens on years when a lot of water flows through these surface risers. In the next few days they will be digging up around these holes, capping the drains for summer, replacing the eroded mix, and plugging the hole. You won't even know that there was a drain there all winter.

So Mr. Paul: I said that I would not expect one of these drains to drain a punch bowl greater than 1,000 sq ft.. Well today I saw one that was at least 2,500 sq.ft. So I was close.    Kinda.

Maybe there is one out there that is more than 2,500 sq.ft.? But even still, what you are proposing is something that you don't get to experiment with before hand. Boy that's a risk I would not take - unless maybe if it was on a deep sand vein.

The other thing is Myopia might be the best below grade bunkering in the world. To place a below grade green in there would be odd I think. Maybe not, but I'm having a hard time visualizing that.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

I'm sure you already know I'm stupid so please don't mind the question but what is a above surface riser?

As for below grade bunkers that collect and hold water back in that day, I doubt that was much concern to those early 20th century cats, not to mention manual labor is relative but I just don't think they looked at it as costly as we do today.

As for below grade/no sheet drainage greens like that old Myopia punchbowl #10 green was, I guess it may've been some concern to them back then with its winter-kill turf loss but probably not remotely close to the concern that kind of loss and condition is to us today.

Nevertheless, as commonsensical as I'm sure they were with what they had to work with back then anyone would admit we have a ton more at our disposal today technologically and construction-wise than they ever even dreamt about.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

Surface risers are where you have a drain grate on the surface for the water to enter the drain pipe. You see these all over in roughs and fairways. Conventional drainage on greens involves laying a pipe horizontal, in a gravel filled trench, with sand above it. The water filters downward through the porous soil mix to the drain line.

The golden age greens where built with clay tile lines in gravel trenches. I think that those lines would still work if we could find out where they are broken. Tree spades on old golf course are especially adept at destroying those old clay tile lines.

I know those clay lines work. I took care of a Robert Bruce Harris course that had really good as-builts. Harris used to daylight his drain lines, and when I found and uncovered all those daylight drains they would gurgle a lot of water after a 2 inch rain. But you rarely see that kind of water flowing into catch basins from sand based greens. It makes me wonder if those old clay tile systems, in push-up greens, were just as good as the USGA or California green? But if what those old tile lines were connected to is a broken tile line somewhere downstream, those lines would fail, leading one to think that there are no drains under them.

I have tried witching those old lines and you just can't find them, but you know they are there. Honestly, I don't think they built greens back in those days without putting tile in them.

That punchbowl green back at Myopia that failed so long ago, probably did have a great tile system in it.

Look at this tile system from the 1920's. Drainage is one area of technology that we haven't really improved on over the ODG. If anything we have gone backwards in drainage technology. They had to work much harder to dewater back in those days then we do today. They knew what they were doing.

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