When is it time to quit?

[Charlie Goerges]

It may not look like Huckaby, but I just KNOW he's got that sweater!

[Tom Huckaby]

It may not look like Huckaby, but I just KNOW he's got that sweater!

I would love to claim ownership of a sweater like that.. but sadly no.  However I do know one who does... the same man contemplating quitting the game... Nicklaus fan he... who once when playing Pebble donned said yellow cardigan, in emulation of his hero's attire in the 1972 US Open.

That THIS guy is even thinking of quitting is scary for us all.  Few get (got?) more joy out of playing than one David Schmidt.

[Tom Huckaby]

That THIS guy is even thinking of quitting is scary for us all.  Few get (got?) more joy out of playing than one David Schmidt.

I've said precisely that before.  If golf risks losing a lifelong hardcore borderline junkie like me to all but the occasional round (if that), I have to wonder how its long-term outlook could possibly be rosy. 

Good point, for sure.

Just note it has zero danger of losing me.

And I'll believe it when I see it when it loses you.

Doubting Thomas

[Jim Franklin]

Dave -

Your kids will know you love the game and will want to play with you. You will not quit. My 9 year old told me the other day she wants to golf during the day and shoot hoops at night all summer long. At least I know I will have someone to play with.

[George Pazin]

It's not the score.  It's the shots that produce it.  Score is a just proxy for suck-ass shot after suck-ass shot after suck-ass shot...where's the romance in that?

Even the lowliest hit wonderful shots now and then.

I'll quit if I can't see the fun in playing. I can't imagine that.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I may have mentioned on here before but I have my name down to become a member of a famous club in Scotland.  After sending in my application I called the club secretary to check all was well.

We had a most pleasant chat with quite a bit of humour on either side and he confirmed that my application seemed fine and that I could expect to hear nothing for 5 years (in 2006). But then he added there might be something I could do to lessen that period of time.

"Oh?" I replied.

"Mr Muldoon are you a believer in God?"

Hesitating at what seemed like a sudden turn in the conversation and not sure of what this meant from a relatively unknown Scotsman.  Eventually I offered  " No, not really" hoping my voice was not betraying too much.

"Shame, shame, otherwise you could have prayed for cold harsh winters.  Burying them is probably the only way to get some of my Octogenarian members to keep off the course!"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou:

I hate to say this, because Pat's great and wonderful and a doyen and a supreme gentleman and all that, but HOGWASH!

What Pat wrote is complete, utter hogwash.  Simple as that.  Although it's borderline Obamaian in its presentation, and the prose is superb, the premise is completely false.

Pat, I have just one simple question for you:  have you ever - in your entire life - hit a shot that was "beyond your ability"?  In fact, has any golfer?

Yes, and so have you and pretty much every other golfer.

A golf shot is beyond your ability when you can't hit it ON DEMAND.

The answer, of course, is no.  Every shot you hit, every shot I hit...indeed, every shot every golfer who has ever inhabited the earth has hit...was within that golfer's ability, or else they could not have hit it!

But, you can't hit it ON DEMAND, thus it's beyond your ability.
You can only hit it ......on rare occassion.
Yet, we pursue that once is a "blue moon" execution on an almost regular basis.  That's part of the lure of the game, part of the inherent challenge.

But that's your premise:

And a correct one at that.

"To produce shots and scores that are beyond your ability, that's the fun and excitement of the game."

And, Lou, that's why what Pat wrote was hogwash.  Lovely hogwash.  Hogwash supporting arguably the proper conclusion not to quit.  But hogwash nonetheless.  The first domino simply doesn't fall...

But, it's not hogwash, it's a reality interwoven in the inherent lure of the game.

We all aspire to hit shots beyond our ability.
And, we know there are a huge number of shots that fall into that category, but, every once in a while, the courage to attempt and the luck to execute, fall into place, and we produce a shot far beyond our ability.
A shot for the ages, for each golfer.

That thrill remains with us long after the ball has come to rest.

That shot gets recreated and repeated when we tell our friends and acquiantances of our daring do, of our golfing achievements.

It is that quest, when facing a daunting shot, that compels golfers to use their imagination, focus and put forth the physical effort to try to pull off a shot for the ages, a shot "against all odds".

To varying degrees, every shot we hit, presents that challenge, and it's the golfer's desire to meet and/or exceed that challenge that brings them to the golf course to begin with.

Now, there's a thought process that allows prudent golfers to differentiate between an impossible shot and an unlikely shot.

And it's formulating and executing the unlikely shot, the one that's beyond the golfer's ability that makes the game so enjoyable.

I never thought that I'd have to duck hook a 4-iron from 150 yards in order to avoid a flanking bunker to get to the green.  But, I learned to love doing just that.  Using creativity to thwart the architectural impediments in my path.  When I didn't pull the shot off, I still enjoyed the satisfaction of knowing that I had crafted the proper strategy, but, failed in the execution phase.  BUT, when I did pull the shot offf, the satisfaction was enormous, and no double or triple bogies or X's were going to rob me of that satisfaction.

You must learn to play the games within the game.

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

Is talent and consistency the same thing, or at least inseparable, in your example?

Joe

[Mike_Cirba]

I started playing golf on a converted farmland, ramshackle 9-hole course in the summer of 1971.   It wasn't much in the way of beauty or conditioning, and played all of about 2400 yards to a par of 34 but for a 13 year old kid finding the joy of the game with his brothers and friends quite unexpectedly it might as well have been heaven.

My non-golfing dad would drop us off at the course before work at 6:15am and come and pick us up after work at 3:30.   A year or two later he tried to hit one and thus developed his love for the game and a primary source of loving and familial conversation between he and his sons that is now going on forty years.

I think it was the second year we played there...Scott-View Golf Course was the name...it went by Nine Flags for a number of years and I think it's called something else these days...I haven't been back since they inadvisedly changed 3 holes back in the 80s...I still hold out in silent protest for a true RESTORATION!  ....

Anyway, I think it was that second year, around 1972, and while Nixon was thrashing McGovern and fearing political enemies my brothers and dad (evenings and weekends) were all playing at Scott-View with a number of friends for the incomprehensible price of $35 annual membership.   There were days we played sunrise to sunset and our longest day was 81 holes.

One day I was playing in a twosome with a friend named Jim Aldine, and we were waiting on the 4th tee when an older gentleman in a white t-shirt and brown slacks came up behind us from the 3rd green and asked if he could join us.   There was a little wait and he introduced himself as "John" and proceeded to tell us how he had just had heart surgery and was now finally able to get back to playing the game after a layoff of some time.   

He went on to tell us that he was 81 years old, and showed us his chest scar, and said the operation had given him some more time, and then we started comparing golf clubs and balls...for some reason the different types of balls and makes held great fascination for us then...Club Special...Golden Ram...Grey Goose...Kasnar...Kro-Flite...

...but what mostly struck us was that John was quite ahead of his time, and had marked all of his golf balls with his initials, "J. H.".   Honestly, I probably didn't know enough about the game at that time but it was at least 20 years later til I even read or heard about anyone marking their balls for identification.

In any case, we ran into John quite a few times that summer, and the next, and we used to marvel as kids how a guy that old kept playing the game, because not only was he playing, but he was pretty damn good.   At least he could keep up with us, and periodically kick our asses damn good.

In a way, he became sort of a surrogate baby-sitter...or more like a kindly grandfather to the group of us, and sometimes we played together...other times just wave in passing when we'd see him out there on some other hole.   I do recall introducing him to my dad at one point, and playing some holes together one evening...I also recall hoping they'd have a lot in common and somehow become fast friends but that never happened.

Over time, without really noticing, we kept playing but it took some time for us to realize that John was no longer around.    I'm not sure what happened to him...whether he became too ill or incapacitated to play...whether he passed on...had become hospitalized...we didn't know much more than he wasn't around, but we were now 16, and 17, and moving onto not only golf, but girls, and other interests...

But...every now and again...while hunting for a ball in the holes along the woodlines....one or another of us would find a golf ball...

..with the initials "J.H."...and we would show it off like a trophy, all silently prayerful inside that he was still out there somewhere, sometime...somehow...golfing his ball.

One thing we were sure of, though...we certainly knew John would never have quit by choice.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Is talent and consistency the same thing, or at least inseparable, in your example?

I don't think so.
Talent is inate ability.
Consistancy is what you get when a talented player practices.

[Mike_Cirba]

It occurs to me as we discuss "is golf dying" and lament other trends in the game that many of us need to stick around to become the next generation of "J. H."'s helping to teach, inspire, and grow the next generation of golfers.

That is, if we want to have a golf-related legacy more important than what we scored on any given day...

[JMEvensky]

Pat,

Is talent and consistency the same thing, or at least inseparable, in your example?

I don't think so.
Talent is inate ability.
Consistancy is what you get when a talented player practices.

Pat,I disagree with your premise that talent and consistency are separable.

To say that talent is innate(something one is born with),presupposes that one could never be taught to play golf well.I don't think this is the case.I will concede the possible argument over the definition of "play well".

I think that,relative to golf,talent is almost a synonym for consistency.That one thing which defines a player's skill level is the amount of consistency he/she possesses.Further,I think that talent/consistency can,in fact,be taught.

Most importantly,as someone who has never played NGLA,when the hell can I see the last 14 holes?

[Lou_Duran]

Mike Cirba,

Here I sit, teary-eyed, wistfully yearning times past, no longer to come.  That's as poetic as I get, but your post was moving.

My first introduction to the great game was similar to yours without J.H. or a father.  The course was just a tad longer, an assembly of several corn fields that my high school basketball coach bought with a grant from Johnson's "Great Society" largess and converted to nine holes, later adding a second nine.  It was very rudimentary with no bunkers, push-up greens, grade level tees, and one little creek splitting and draining the course which provided most of the elevation change.  It was cheap and great fun, though I had few friends who would go out to play golf.  Even then, girls, work (yeah, child labor was a necessity in the small town, rural economy) beer drinking, and baseball got in the way.

While Ohio State's Scarlet and its distinguished golfing alumni really encited and nourished my love for the game, it was Seneca Hills between New Riegel and Tiffin, Ohio where the seeds were sown.  It is a shame that land prices and environmental and zoning regulations no longer allow these type of facilities to exist in much of the country.

[Mike_Cirba]

Lou/Dave,

Thanks...glad that story struck a nerve with you heart-hardened conservatives!   

It certainly still resonates with me almost 40 years later and I can still picture the old bugger in my minds-eye like it was yesterday.

Two additional points...

Lou, did I mention that I would go play AFTER or before work myself?   At that time I worked evenings mowing grass/raking leaves in a cemetery.   I worked since I was 13 and can only remember not having a job for a few really bad weeks/months after graduating college in 1981.   We didn't call it "child labor"...we called it "spending money" and we were thrilled to get it. 

A silver spoon was clearly never lodged in my cheek. 

Dave, no cheater line....J.H. would have frowned on that, I'm quite sure. 

[Rich Goodale]

Dave

Please quit (sic) or get off the pot (I hope it is the latter) so the rest of us can get back to pretending that we can play this stupid game we love.

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Concur whole-heartedly with Rich.

Jeez, Huntley got over this in a day....

[Lou_Duran]

Mike Cirba,

My reference about kids working where I grew up in the late 1960s was not aimed at you.  It was a description of the things that occupied our time, which, even for the well-off kids, included a considerable amount of work.  These experiences were invaluable in my growth, though they weren't always pleasant at the moment (picking rocks from the fields by hand, laying tile, pulling weeds, bailing hay, cutting pigs, breaking ice so the livestock could drink, fixing plumbing and broken pipes in crawl spaces, unplugging sewer drains, stipping and sanding floors, loading trucks, etc., all things which I've done).   I wish my own kids had "enjoyed" such "opportunities".  Perhaps with similar experiences as a juxtaposition, golf might have occupied a higher position in their lives.     

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

My reference about kids working where I grew up in the late 1960s was not aimed at you.  It was a description of the things that occupied our time, which, even for the well-off kids, included a considerable amount of work.  These experiences were invaluable in my growth, though they weren't always pleasant at the moment (picking rocks from the fields by hand, laying tile, pulling weeds, bailing hay, cutting pigs, breaking ice so the livestock could drink, fixing plumbing and broken pipes in crawl spaces, unplugging sewer drains, stipping and sanding floors, loading trucks, etc., all things which I've done).   I wish my own kids had "enjoyed" such "opportunities".  Perhaps with similar experiences as a juxtaposition, golf might have occupied a higher position in their lives.     

Lou,

Well stated....I think our kid's generation have lost out on a lot of "learning opportunities". 

[Mark Pearce]

Lou:

I hate to say this, because Pat's great and wonderful and a doyen and a supreme gentleman and all that, but HOGWASH!

What Pat wrote is complete, utter hogwash.  Simple as that.  Although it's borderline Obamaian in its presentation, and the prose is superb, the premise is completely false.

Pat, I have just one simple question for you:  have you ever - in your entire life - hit a shot that was "beyond your ability"?  In fact, has any golfer?

Yes, and so have you and pretty much every other golfer.

A golf shot is beyond your ability when you can't hit it ON DEMAND.

The answer, of course, is no.  Every shot you hit, every shot I hit...indeed, every shot every golfer who has ever inhabited the earth has hit...was within that golfer's ability, or else they could not have hit it!

But, you can't hit it ON DEMAND, thus it's beyond your ability.
You can only hit it ......on rare occassion.
Yet, we pursue that once is a "blue moon" execution on an almost regular basis.  That's part of the lure of the game, part of the inherent challenge.

But that's your premise:

And a correct one at that.

"To produce shots and scores that are beyond your ability, that's the fun and excitement of the game."

And, Lou, that's why what Pat wrote was hogwash.  Lovely hogwash.  Hogwash supporting arguably the proper conclusion not to quit.  But hogwash nonetheless.  The first domino simply doesn't fall...

But, it's not hogwash, it's a reality interwoven in the inherent lure of the game.

We all aspire to hit shots beyond our ability.
And, we know there are a huge number of shots that fall into that category, but, every once in a while, the courage to attempt and the luck to execute, fall into place, and we produce a shot far beyond our ability.
A shot for the ages, for each golfer.

That thrill remains with us long after the ball has come to rest.

That shot gets recreated and repeated when we tell our friends and acquiantances of our daring do, of our golfing achievements.

It is that quest, when facing a daunting shot, that compels golfers to use their imagination, focus and put forth the physical effort to try to pull off a shot for the ages, a shot "against all odds".

To varying degrees, every shot we hit, presents that challenge, and it's the golfer's desire to meet and/or exceed that challenge that brings them to the golf course to begin with.

Now, there's a thought process that allows prudent golfers to differentiate between an impossible shot and an unlikely shot.

And it's formulating and executing the unlikely shot, the one that's beyond the golfer's ability that makes the game so enjoyable.

I never thought that I'd have to duck hook a 4-iron from 150 yards in order to avoid a flanking bunker to get to the green.  But, I learned to love doing just that.  Using creativity to thwart the architectural impediments in my path.  When I didn't pull the shot off, I still enjoyed the satisfaction of knowing that I had crafted the proper strategy, but, failed in the execution phase.  BUT, when I did pull the shot offf, the satisfaction was enormous, and no double or triple bogies or X's were going to rob me of that satisfaction.

You must learn to play the games within the game.

Tremendous.  An absolutely spot on post from Mr Mucci, who appears to understand what this is all about.

[Mark Pearce]

Pat,

Is talent and consistency the same thing, or at least inseparable, in your example?

I don't think so.
Talent is inate ability.
Consistancy is what you get when a talented player practices.

Pat,I disagree with your premise that talent and consistency are separable.

To say that talent is innate(something one is born with),presupposes that one could never be taught to play golf well.I don't think this is the case.I will concede the possible argument over the definition of "play well".

I think that,relative to golf,talent is almost a synonym for consistency.That one thing which defines a player's skill level is the amount of consistency he/she possesses.Further,I think that talent/consistency can,in fact,be taught.

Most importantly,as someone who has never played NGLA,when the hell can I see the last 14 holes?

I'm astonished to find myself agreeing with Pat Mucci twice in a thread.  To suggest that talent and consistency are inseperable is obvious nonsense, not least because I know several people in various walks of life who are wonderfully consistent at being rubbish.  Just a look at the dictionary definitions would be enough to understand the difference.  Let's, however, for the sake of debate dispense with the dictionary.  My sons all play squash (as well as golf, cricket, rugby and football (soccer)).  The youngest two (twins) are pretty good for their age.  One is very fastidious with his technique, is steady and achieves good results.  He very rarely does anything that makes you comment, other than to praise his application and the way he puts into practice what he is taught.  He tends to beat opponents he is expected to beat and lose to those he is expected to lose to.  He is, in fact, a model of consistency.

The other almost makes a point of ignoring technical tuition.  He plays almost entirely by feel.  Most weeks he will play a shot that makes watching parents and coaches express astonishment (a perfect drop shot from the back of the court, a boast that didn't seem possible).  He will most likely in the same game miss a shot that his brother would have made 99% of the time 2 years ago.  It is impossible to judge how he will perform in a match.  He loses to kids on a different page of the county rankings table.  He beats older kids he shouldn't be able to live with.  He is not just inconsistent from day to day or match to match but from point to point.  There is no doubt, however, that he has a talent which one coach has described as a special talent. 

Which is the better player?  Well the consistent twin is ranked 5 places higher than the more talented one. 

I have played cricket with similar players, capable of sublime performances but also of playing like beginners.  I have also played with players who you knew, every time, what you were going to get.

Of course consistency and talent can be seperated.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,I disagree with your premise that talent and consistency are separable.

To say that talent is innate(something one is born with), presupposes that one could never be taught to play golf well. I don't think this is the case.    I will concede the possible argument over the definition of "play well".

I think that, relative to golf, talent is almost a synonym for consistency. That one thing which defines a player's skill level is the amount of consistency he/she possesses. Further,I think that talent/consistency can, in fact, be taught.

I know two fellows who would love to buy into your theory.
One will gift you a large shopping mall if you can get his handicap to 5 or better.  The other will give you a million dollars if you can get him to shoot in the 80's consistently.

Before you accept the challenge, you should be aware that St Jude, the Patron Saint of Lost Causes gave up on both of them after two years.

In football, basketball and soccer, you can't teach speed.
In golf, you can't teach talent, it's either there or it isn't there.
Some people have athletic ability, others don't.  And, if they don't have it, you can't teach it.

Some people can take lessons and practice 8 hours a day, but, they're never going to qualify for the U.S. Amateur or Open.

Others are naturals and can go on to become legends.

Most importantly, as someone who has never played NGLA,when the hell can I see the last 14 holes?

Shortly.

My cable was accidently cut last week and I had no access to the internet.  I suspect TEPaul was the culprit only because the police reported a Cooper circling the neighborhood, with the driver asking the locals if anyone had seen his dog, "Coorshaw", but, hopefully, "Hog's Back" and possibly "Short" will be presented by this weekend.

Mark Pearce,

It starts to get really scarey when you find yourself always agreeing with me.

[Rob Rigg]

talent and consistency are absolutely separable.

talent makes a scratch handicap a possibility, while consistency (through practice) can make it a reality.

about 85% of golfers have no hope in hell of ever shooting in the 80s no matter how much they practice. they will be consistent from all of the practice, but consistencly mediocre.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There's another facet to Bob's question about quiting.

Quiting isn't just about ceasing to play a game, it's tantamount to extracting yourself from a culture you've enjoyed for decades.

One of the great joys of golf is spending hours on a course with friends, acquiantances or strangers, while all of you pursue a similar quest.

The comraderie, the fun, the jibes are all priceless.

Quiting deprives you of those great hours.

One of the great things about golf is as follows.

I can sit on a plane next to a total stranger.
But, if we strike up a conversation and discover that we both play golf, instantaneously we have many things in common.
And, chances are, that we know people in common.

Immediately, a bond is formed, even though we were total strangers five minutes before we discovered our common interest in golf.

That bonding process has been part of your fabric for decades.
Quiting eliminates that and a huge chunk of your daily activity.

But, I have some other questions for you.

What are you going to do with your spare time ?

Spend an additional 5 hours a day with your wife ?
Spend an additional 5 hours a day at work ?

You'll be on suicide watch after three weeks

When I was in the hospital I never heard one patient claim that they wished that they had spent more time working.

Get out of your funk, buy some new clubs, a putter, driver or wedge and get back on the golf course.

Believe me, the views at MPCC are far better than they are in the ICU.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

That is more wisdom, and much appreciated.

But Huntley was never the issue here, though he did pose the initial question obviously.  Reading through the thread, you'll see his was just momentary melancholy brought on perhaps by seeing golfers he could once dispatch blindfolded manage to extract money that should have been rightfully is.  Once the madness ceased he was back on the horse.. he posts so a few pages back.

NO, the issue here is that psycho-Schmidt.  Hopefully he heeds your words.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

  Golf is "this thing of ours". Once you are in you cannot get out.

  Witness Protection