News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« on: March 18, 2009, 12:47:44 PM »
Notice the revised topographic lines between the preliminary plan with topo lines showing natural state of the ground and the topo lines on the final plan showing the intended earth movement in building up features, particularly greens and tees.

Preliminary green plan for second hole at Pepper Pike Club (Ohio)




Final green plan for second hole at Pepper Pike Club (Ohio)


Yannick Pilon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2009, 12:56:12 PM »
Tom,

I beleive this is relatively common.  What do you find interesting about the comparison?

Just curious.

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

TEPaul

Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2009, 01:04:57 PM »
I, for one, have never seen two drawings of a hole showing the differences in contour lines between the pre-design natural grade contour lines next to another drawing showing the contour lines of the "designed" product, at least not this early (1920s).

I don't know about you guys but this kind of thing totally fascinates me because it actually shows what an architect is looking at before he designs and builds and what his finished conception is.

Numerous times I've gone out on significant courses such as NGLA to see if I can somehow pick up these differences (the way the grades were before construction COMPARED TO the way they are after construction) but it's all just guess work that way.

These two drawings analyzed side by side require no guess work at all-----all you have to do is follow the differences of the contour lines between the one against the other and you can see exactly what Flynn was looking at on the site's natural grades preconstruction and what it would look like when he was done designing and constructing.

If anyone is aware of architectural drawings like this from any architect this early I would love to know about them.

In the context of architectural drawings this is the coolest comparative deal I've ever seen from the Golden Age era.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 01:08:37 PM by TEPaul »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2009, 01:34:27 PM »
If Tom Paul has learned how to post photos in addition to typing rapidly, we are in big trouble.  Very big.

Yannick Pilon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 01:34:55 PM »
Thanks for the clarification Tom.

There are three things that I find interesting about these two plans:
 
1. The first is to see 10 feet of fill at the back right of the green, and the trees that are supposed to remain there after the works!!  And why build the green so high and why only with fill?  This is all Cut & Transport....  Very expensive, especially for that time!! 

2. The second is the probable intent of adding trees between the two greens, since they are not on the conceptual plan.

3. And the third is the absence of proposed contours for any other feature on the second plan.  I wonder why the architect would give himself the trouble of showing proposed contours for the greens, and not do it for the other important features of the course, such as the bunker short of the green.  These two elements will need to tie in together very well to work properly....

I don't have enough knowledge about architectural plans from architects of the golden age to indicate if this was a common way to do plans at that period, but I can assure you that there is a lot of architects that do that for every square inch of their golf courses today.  And that, sometimes, whether they like it or not!  This is another discussion entirely!  But most permitting agencies, at least in Quebec and Canada, want to see this type of plans before a building permit can be awarded, and certainly before there is a single piece of equipment on site to build the course.

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2009, 02:08:45 PM »
That is a lot of dirt.
Can you share a picture of the hole today?

It looks like the design didn't work when they went to build it.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2009, 02:16:31 PM »
Tom,

Interesting that you bring this up.  I do all of mine like that.  I am not the only one doing that am I??

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 02:18:14 PM »
Who designed Pepper Pike?  I thought Langford and Moreau were generally credited with the earliest contour drawings as depicted above.  Now, its fairly standard among those who do plans, and has been since at least 1950 or so.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2009, 02:27:47 PM »
Lester:

I understand that architects do this kind of thing today but who did it in the early 1920s? If someone did these before Flynn (examples posted above) I'd be interesting in knowing about it and seeing them.

JeffB:

Flynn designed Pepper Pike.

Scott Witter

Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2009, 02:57:54 PM »
Yannick:

I also noticed that Flynn shows contours 455 and 450 running through the front bunker and some space (even more elevation) to the front of the bunker...this would mean about 7 feet of elevation change in the bunker alone--YIKES, now that is what I call a flashed face :o

On one hand I would like the steep drop-off around the green, it works with the lay of the land, but Flynn didn't need to do this all in fill as shown and still be just as effective, he could have easily cut into the slope, lowered the green a few feet and saved a lot of $ in construction.

Tom P., I don't the details about Flynn and his dwgs as you and the other Philly guys do, but it would seem that this dwg could be an 'in the process' effort and not a completed plan?  Is that possible?  On the other hand and I don't know the course or the land, but maybe all he needed was to work the green sites and the rest was good to go, or onlyneeded to be slightly worked out in the field by construction foremen.

TEPaul

Re: Interesting preliminary and final hole drawing comparison New
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2009, 03:15:12 PM »
"but it would seem that this dwg could be an 'in the process' effort and not a completed plan?  Is that possible?"

Scott:

I'm sure it is possible. He did a lot of iterations of hole designs but I think generally on individual hole grid paper. I wasn't aware of this before which seems to be from a larger context than individual hole drawings that don't have contour lines on them.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 06:20:42 PM by TEPaul »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back