[Mike Hendren]

Rather than hijack the Golweek Top 100 thread I thought it better to start this one.  If Messrs. Arble, Ward & Cirba like Lederach my disappointment might be ill founded.  At a minimum I should back up my position. 

Mike Cirba correctly pointed out that this "style" of course is not my cup of tea.  After all, I worship the Dead Guys and tend to favor simplicity.  That said, I intentionally sought out Lederach because I had not experienced Kelly Blake Moran's work and am always looking to broaden my horizon. 

On the other thread I commented that the course was a disjointed mis-mash of interesting architectural features.  One has to look no farther than the first hole in support of my opinion.  Playing from the 6600 yards markers, the first tee shot is a lay-up, though the first time player will likely drive the ball directly into a pair of fairway bunkers that can not realistically be split.  The approach is blind into as fine a green complex as one will encounter anywhere - evoking memories of the fabulous 12th at The Old Course.  It would be fund to see the ball work its way around and over the contours upon approach but for the blindness.

I find additional support at the third, with its neat sunken fairway shortcut where the architect exercised restraint by eschewing heavy bunkering .  The only flaw is that a Wardian driver of the ball might never see his tee-ball bound through that shortcut into a water hazard beyond. 

I really liked the sunken left side of the fourth fairway and his slight penalty on the less bold tee shot.  However, the hole required a lengthy tee ball just to get a peek at the green, much less the correct contour thereon. 

The centerline bunkers at the 6th seem liked overkill given the proximity of the right hand hazard and undesirable hillside left.   I did like the alps feature fronting the green there.

Ditto on the 8th where the trees on either side and the centerline fairway bunker were like negotiating the 1/7/10 split in bowling.

The 9th was incongruent with the balance of the course and the extreme back pin was simply not accessible at the relatively low green speeds.  After a half dozen tries I could not get an approach putt to stop on that small shelf. 

I thought the 10th was a solid golf hole and thought the tree on the approach was well placed.

I doubt anyone defends the 11th.

The 12th is a rock solid uphill par 5 of 625 and rightly tests the player's ability to play three solid long shots.  A really solid hole that I didn't like due simply to bias.

I'm also not a big fan of 90 degree doglegs but the 13th is an excellent one and really tests the ability to play the short-iron from a downhill lie .  One is tempted to give the shot a little extra less it roll back down the fairway short of the green, and in attempting to do so might well experience jail in the deep hidden bunker behind the green.  I was fooled here - big time.

I really liked the brake/turbo boost constructed down the right side of the 15th fairway - a really nice feature on an otherwise flat hole.  I thought the massive front bunker was overkill, however. 

The 17th is another stellar hole where the player must carefully choose a line off the tee and execute the shot.  The undulating green was expansive and worked well there.

The 18th is a solid risk/reward short finisher where the player attempting to drive the green can against use a turbo-boost feature.  The short pitch left must be carefully placed particularly when the hole is pinned on the small crown short right. 

I have highlighted the comments that support my contention that there are very interesting architecture features.  In certain instances, however, they seem gimmicky and out of place. 

I enjoyed the golf course and left wanting to see more of KBM's work, but just didn't have the overall favorable impression shared by many on this site who I consider to be in the know.

FWIW.

Bogey

[Matt_Ward]

Michael H:

Have you played any other KBM layouts ?

Morgan Hill ?

Hawk Pointe ?

I'd be curious to know what Pennsy public ocurses you really like as a counterpoint to something like Lederach ?

Thanks ...

p.s. I'll be happy to offer a few comments to your detailed statement shortly.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

Locally, the course has generated much conversation. It's either a love it or hate it type of course. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression and the first impressions of many are that greens are "too difficult" and that the "centerline bunkers are unfair." For example, my barber 4 putted the first green and vowed never to return.

As for your comments on specific holes, I'd like to add some as a fairly frequent player(not from the back tees) of this course:

#1- The real back tee has never been built. From the other tees, it's a lay up in front of the bunkers or a driver over them. The blind green requires many plays to learn.
#3- I agree with your comments.
#4-    "
#6- I agree but from the forward tees it's easier to go left or long of the centerline bunkers.
#9- This hole used to be 18. The green is still unmangeable even after an expansion.
#10- I agree.
#11- Certainly a controversial hole but not unplayble for the forward tees.
#12- Even from the forward tees it's a long hole. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
#13- I try to drive to the right of the downhill section of the fairway.
#15- A solid golf hole.
#17-   "
#18-  An interesting finishing hole. There is no risk for me unless it's playing downwind.

What did you think of the par3s?

Here is Joe Logan's review:

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/golf/course_guide/6235852.html

[Michael Blake]

Bogey,

Did you know that #9 & #18 were switched?  The short #18 was originally #9 when the course opened 3 years ago.  They also enlarged that green since 2006.

Haven't played there this year but:

They've began last year to fill in the hazard along the dogleg on #11.
They plan to remove at least one of the centerline fairway bunkers.

[Kyle Harris]

I defend the 11th.

If you play it right it's 5wood, 9iron.

[Mike Hendren]

Matt,

I look forward to your comments.  I have played no other KBM courses as he has not been active in my neighborhood.  While Lederach was not my cup of tea, I would seek out his work going forward.  I have only played Lederach, Lehigh, LuLu and Glen Mills in PA.  I prefer Weed's Glen Mills to Lederach by a half to full point on anyone's ten point scale, for what that's worth.  

Steve,

The par 3's at Lederach are surprisingly understated.  I did like heart-shaped green on the short hole, but thought it was much too large to bring the mid-rear pitching area into play.  I tend to like dramatic shaping around greens but thought it was out of place on the 14th.

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael,

I think this thread contains a lot of good opinion and discussion.   Thanks for detailing your impressions!

Mike

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24050.0.html

[Matt_Ward]

Michael H:

A few comments on a few holes at Lederach ...

The 1st hole is a fairly simple starter. Since the back tee is not in the hole is nothing more than a lay-up between the two bunkers that frame the sides of the landing area. Strong players can easily blow it by them by the middle bunker that lies roughly 50 yards in front of the green then becomes an issue.

I concur w Steve on the nature of the approach there -- it's tough to judge for the first or second time play.

I like the blind nature of the tee shot at the 2nd. There's more room to the left than many might imagine. I aso think the approach -- especially when the pin is dead left is one of the most demanding you can play at Lederach.

The 3rd is a good gamble hole. I generally play down the right side because of the option in going for the green in two. Those who bail left will have to worry about the pond that lies in the landing zone for the 2nd.

Ive got to go now but will provide a few more comments later.

[Matt_Ward]

My take on the 9th hole is close to what Michael H said -- the back right pin position is a tough one to access. Although with the short yardage involved I don't see it as being unfair.

Maybe someone can explain to me when the change was done with the 9th and 18th holes that were originally opened as such. What was the thinking behind the change?

One last comment -- solid par-3 in the 16th. The "L" shaped green is a neat feature and requires plenty of different shot options.

[Sean_A]

Bogey

In reading your comments its hard to discern what you really found wrong with the course.  Your comments seem more positive than negative.  In a broad sense, here is my take.

Positives
1. The course makes me think, yet there is a place for long ball hitting.
2. There was good variety in the green complexes which required approaching from preferred angles.
3. The bunkering is simply outstanding.  Its not flashy its not overkill.  KBM placed the bunkers about as well as they could be placed to ensure maximum effectiveness from minimum sand.
4. I like that KBM wasn't afraid to create sudden, very old fashion earthworks as an alternative to bunkering.
5. The setup of the club is straight forward and simple - which allows for prices to be kept reasonable.
6. I like the use of obscuring shots if the player wasn't in position A.
7. The use of short grass around the greens.

Negatives
1. I didn't like the rough.  Balls could go into ruts etc and I actually thought it was dangerous sometimes. 
2. Perhaps a bit too much earth moving to create long flowing lines. 
3. The housing aspect which also creates the hard walk. 
4. The greens weren't in a good enough condition to show off the green complexes. 

Specifically

1. Not a bad hole, the green certainly makes it worthwhile and it definitely sets the tone for the type of game one will encounter at Lederach.

2. I don't usually like reverse doglegs, but this one is wide enough to keep the drive in the fairway and there is room to sneak it up the left.  In fact, perhaps more fairway should be created on this blind side.  Another outstanding green which manages to use depth and width very well without creating a monstrosity.

3. I am not keen on the water, but I thought the green was very cool how a shot could sling down from top left.  The reversed centreline bunker is the exact thing I am talking about when I urge archies to be creative. 

4. Not much to say other than KBM offers a bit of a change up with a bit more of a conventional hole - though the approach is blind unless you are monster long.

5. I really like the 5th - a wonderful downhill one-shotter with a nasty large nose guarding the front middleish of the green.  I also like that what surrounds the tee looks very ordinary.  Full concentration is on the green.

6. This hole looks awkward from the tee.  To my eye, the water and centreline bunker don't fit together.  That said, most archies would have stuck a bunker to the left creating an alley and that could be what throws me off.  I really like the alps creation just shy of the green which does the job of hiding a cool green complex with the right side far below the left.  Plus, there is plenty of room between the alps and the green, but it appears that one needs to worry about over-clubbing from the fairway.

7. I like the idea of a front to back green for this shortish par 3, but I can't help wondering why green wasn't created to the back left.  The hole seems unfinished to me because the best hole location isn't green.

8. I really like the 8th as it just possible to reach this green, but the real story is the green with that false front.

9. The 9th is a one of those areas I think was a bit ott in the earth moving, but yet again the green makes the hole at least decent.  The green is very deceptively large and I would guess its length is 3 club lengths, plus its uphill.  So what may seem like a 120 Yard wedge shot could be more like a 7 iron if the hole is ion the back.

10.  I don't like the look of #10 from the tee.  The cart path heading off to the right I found to be most distracting.  I wasn't keen on the tree guarding the green either. 

11. This hole continues the shakey start to the back 9.  I don't get this hole and that is despite another cool green which falls from front to back.

12. I am not keen on this sort of bang and blame hole.  Its just 3 woods up a hill, though I did like the centreline bunker.  Also, I didn't like the rough behind the green.  My idea of blind shots is always that if you aren't going to give a player a view provide plenty of space especially if he has to hit wood. 

13. Things pick up considerably with what I think is the best green complex on the course.   A blind dogleg left which often leaves a downhill lie for the approach to a raised, dome like green.  Superb.

14. A cracking par 3 of about 200 yards which has a very deceptive plateau green because its actually quite wide.

15. I love the 2nd to this lovely green which is very much higher on the right than left half.  Plus, there is a very cool little rear nose on the left which makes chipping back to this area of the green interesting.

16. The 16th is a short hole with a huge green, much of which is blind.  Again, the the back left area of the complex is not part of the green which makes this essentially an L shape green.  The one aspect I didn't like about this hole was there wasn't a kick space to hit a grounder to a forward hole location on this front to back rolling green.  Its that rutty rough one has to hit to and that isn't any sort of ground to use for a ground game. 

17. Another superb centreline bunker off the tee with two alleys formed.  I wasn't sure of which alley was the best, but I suspect the easier to hit left alley is the better place to approach from usually.  The right alley has another bunker protecting the right flank, a possible blind approach and a shot which when it gets to the green feeds left.  This is proper golf!

18.  This is a cracking finishing hole and it is one of the more bizarre looking off the tee.  Water left, centreline bunker and another fairway which seems to lwad away from the green.  The truth is the right isn't so bad to approach from if the flag isn't front right even though  the left just looks better to approach from.  Great deception - plus the green is a doozy.

Lederach didn't exactly blow me away, but it impressed me greatly and I would have no hesitation going back if I am ever in Philly again.  For $50 its an absolute gem of a course that really shouldn't be missed for anybody visiting Philly - even if on a big gun tour Lederach holds its own.   

Ciao

 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

I think the change of 9 & 18 was made to increase traffic to the clubhouse for F&B at the turn. Another thought perhaps was not to increase frustration levels because of the original 9th green.

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