The Armchair Architecture Contest...Cool idea for next contest - Please comment

[Charlie Goerges]

lack of strategic thinking.

Charlie, looking at the holes you've chosen and other comments on our courses, I don't believe you.

I love this latest hole, by the way.  A fade is strongly favored, but others can still get around the hole without too much trouble.  If it were me, I would do away with the left fairway bunkers and keep that all as fairway to let the golfers themselves decide the best route to the hole.  Might not be as artistic, though...

Alright, you got me. I do try to bring some strategic thought into my choices and comments. I do have to work at it though as my initial thought is usually to the pretty-ness of the hole. I tend toward the artistic in how I look at things that can be as pretty as some holes are. But as I have learned, the prettiest are not always the most fun (wait, am I still talking about golf holes  )

[Jim Colton]

In all fairness, I think it's a 1/3 dell hole. I like it  a lot better than the real thing, in that you can see most of the green. Even if the pin was partially blind, you'd have some sense of distance.  The EH dell has no real depth to it. Just hit over a white rock and hope for the best.  

[Garland Bayley]

...I do have to work at it though as my initial though is usually to the pretty-ness of the hole. I tend toward the artistic in how I look at things that can be as pretty as some holes are. But as I have learned, the prettiest are not always the most fun (wait, am I still talking about golf holes  )

Ha!  A recoverging Fazio/Nicklaus-aholic.

[Charlie Goerges]

Next on the “docket” is Steve Lang’s Par 5 13th. I like this one because it tumbles both downhill and across the fall-line across some of the best topography on the site. The tee shot sets up a bit blind, but raising the tee or moving it a bit might help, but honestly I don’t think it’s a real big deal to just leave it a little blind.







The strategy involves trade-offs depending on what you preferred poison might be. Keep the tee shot to the right to offer the shortest distance to the green and take the greenside bunker and wetland out of play, but the second is then blind(er) and off a more severe side-hill lie. Play the tee shot out to the left and bring the bunkers and wetland into play but you’ll have a flatter lie with better visibility.








Aerial (The 13th is lower center to middle left with the green near the red spot depicting the wetland):








P.S. Ian! we need to see your hole by hole brother.

P.P.S. Jim, still looking forward to seeing your renovations.

P.P.P.S. I'm working on my own routing that I'll post for derision and mockery once I've gotten my favs done. It might just be an aerial with a couple of 3D images.

[Charlie Goerges]

You know Jim, I just noticed that Ballysnoop didn't even last as long as Erin Hills before needing a remodel.

[Jim Colton]

You know Jim, I just noticed that Ballysnoop didn't even last as long as Erin Hills before needing a remodel.

I caved to the whims of the USGA.  Keeping my fingers crossed that Ballysnoop will land a US Open.

[Garland Bayley]

Nice use of terrain to suggest the player go up the left side of the hole bringing the bunker into play. However, it is unfortunate that the pond is a hazard by the green. Both ponds were used this way by Mr. Lang. As you know, I am not a fan of this, but I much prefer this usage than his other usage.

Charlie,

Did the judges pick best par 3, par 4, and par 5?


Had to edit this. Looking a the hole from behind the green made me mislabel the fairway side.

[Charlie Goerges]

Some of them did Garland, but it was a bit haphazard and so I just kind of filed it away in the back of my mind. I'll probably drag some of that information out just before the end.

[Charlie Goerges]

Up next is Greg Davis’ 11th hole, a short par 4. I liked it because the “Line of Instinct” (Edit: I originally said: "Line of Charm". Thanks to GBay for educating me!) draws you to play toward the green while the best option appears to be out to the right, which is a blind shot.






I also like the fact that there is a lot of width with nice rolling contours throughout the fairway. The view from behind the green below shows how much to the right you need to play to have the easiest angle into the green. It also shows how those who can brave the blindness and trust their swings will be rewarded. One possible problem is the completely blind bunker. What do folks think of that?






Aerial (the hole is in the middle of the image below):

[Charlie Goerges]

The next hole is Andy Gray’s par 5 17th. Several of the contestants ran a par 5 hole over this section of the property. The image below shows just how much strategy must be thought out before playing the hole. Try to hit the smaller section of fairway to the right in order to have a decent view of the green for going at it in 2 as well as having the mound play less havoc with the shot.






The view from behind reveals the strategic options near the green. There is a large area of flattish fairway short and right of the green (from the player’s perspective) for the 3rd-shot approach. This area gives the best angle for holding the ball on the green because of the severe left to right slope of the green. It also appears that this area would probably be easier to access from the safer left part of the fairway off the tee.






Aerial (Hole is top right):

[Ian_L]

P.S. Ian! we need to see your hole by hole brother.

Sorry, I'll get another batch of holes done by tonight.

[Charlie Goerges]

No pressure Ian, I just want everyone to get their day in the sun.

[Garland Bayley]

How did those fairway bunkers get in Greg's hole?

[Charlie Goerges]

How did those fairway bunkers get in Greg's hole?

I'm not quite sure I follow.

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie,

Do you have a fetish for par 5s? You drew the tee shot on Anthony's hole to challenge the fairway bunker. Wouldn't a better angle be obtained by taking it over near the right rough? Sometimes the line of charm is not obvious and one has to overcome instinct to find it. Great hole for the high handicapper who will find zigging left followed by zagging right an interesting challenge.

[Garland Bayley]

How did those fairway bunkers get in Greg's hole?

I'm not quite sure I follow.

When I look at the aerial of Greg's 11th, I only see a group of bunkers surrounding the green.

[Charlie Goerges]

Ah, Greg's aerial was drawn by hand and then scanned. He wasn't able to get sketchup to cooporate enough to get his front nine done with it. So in sketchup he had actually drawn those other bunkers and stamped them. Basically his hand drawing was a bit off from what he had done in sketchup.

[Steve Lang]

Next on the “docket” is Steve Lang’s Par 5 13th. I like this one because it tumbles both downhill and across the fall-line across some of the best topography on the site. The tee shot sets up a bit blind, but raising the tee or moving it a bit might help, but honestly I don’t think it’s a real big deal to just leave it a little blind.







The strategy involves trade-offs depending on what you preferred poison might be. Keep the tee shot to the right to offer the shortest distance to the green and take the greenside bunker and wetland out of play, but the second is then blind(er) and off a more severe side-hill lie. Play the tee shot out to the left and bring the bunkers and wetland into play but you’ll have a flatter lie with better visibility.








Aerial (The 13th is lower center to middle left with the green near the red spot depicting the wetland):

Hey guys, please call me steve..  been out of pocket for a while.. sorry not to answer sooner..

Charlie, you captured the strategy elements perfectly.. i should have had you or a thrid party ghost write - edit - challenge my hole narratives! 

While I was faulted for too many blind shots across my Foothills Trail layout, I couldn't resist using the topography for such on the 13th, and to use subtle aiming points that one may see on different shots.. i also thought the left side play introduced a simple final challenge with the pond left.. i guess I see too many people pull the ball left into hazards that are trying to over-swing for long shots..

also, don't forget the forward tee player's potential adventures.. where looks can have much more impact than reality..

[Steve Lang]

Nice use of terrain to suggest the player go up the left side of the hole bringing the bunker into play. However, it is unfortunate that the pond is a hazard by the green. Both ponds were used this way by Mr. Lang. As you know, I am not a fan of this, but I much prefer this usage than his other usage.


Had to edit this. Looking a the hole from behind the green made me mislabel the fairway side.

Garland,  down here in SE TX we have to play over and along water and drainage featuers quite a bit.. so I didnt think more than a millisecond or so to use the limited water hazards available.. as a carry on #4 and as a flanking hazard on #13..

[Charlie Goerges]

And in reality that pond is more of a marsh or wetland. If a ball just trickles in, you'll probably be able to get down in there and play it.


By the way Steve, I'm glad my description did it justice. I didn't consult with any of the contestants as to their thoughts on the holes that I chose, because I wanted to really give my opinion/impression without a lot of influence. Plus, I chose my favorites, of course they're good  .

[Charlie Goerges]

Moving along… Up next is Ian Linford’s drivable par 4 second hole. I know that Ian wasn’t totally happy with this hole, but I thought it was a good example of a drivable par 4. The risk is high for going for the green and the penalty for a poorly thought-out layup is also quite high. You can’t see the lion’s share of fairway contour from the tee as you can see below, but the green is basically in view.






This view from behind the green gives a much better view of the fairway contours and the choices available to the player who elects to lay-up. It appears to be better to lay-up to the right side of the fairway to take the bunkers out of play as much as possible. However, it looks like someone in the middle or left could use the large mound to the right to work the ball down onto the green if they don’t want to confront the bunkers.






Aerial (Hole is at lower right):

[Charlie Goerges]

Last, but certainly not least is my design associate Tom Doak  . I chose the 8th hole, a medium to long par 4. I liked this one because it was a good example of a hole which gives strategic options based on the distance one hits the tee shot and not just the direction. (Tom can chime in with more detailed info if he wishes, but here is my take) Often we talk about needing width to add strategy, but in this case width matters less to the strategy than distance. (there is strategy side-to-side as well given the bunkers) So the strategy is one can lay back short of the drop in the fairway (about 260 yards from the back tee) in order to have a better view of the green.






Looking back, you can see how the fairway drops severely, so much in fact that the surface of the green is entirely blind, and how far the green is set back from the edge of the slope is not easy to discern. However, you can gain a serious boost if you catch the slope and run out as far as possible into the lower section of fairway. It could be a 3-4 club difference.






I also like the look of the front bunkers cut into the slope fronting the green. I’ll throw in one extra shot in which I tried to give some idea of the steepness of the slopes.






Aerial (Hole is at upper right and runs down to the left):

[Garland Bayley]

Isn't Ian's second missing the penalty for the risk? To me, it looks like a less than adequate short par 4.

[Ian_L]

Isn't Ian's second missing the penalty for the risk? To me, it looks like a less than adequate short par 4.

Thanks for the comment Garland.  I still have mixed feelings about this hole, but not for same reasons as yours.  I think Charlie's image may be flattened a bit too much to show the severity of this green (which would actually need to be leveled a fair amount).  Here's a picture from the fairway that shows the slopes a bit better:


While the green is open to a running approach off the hill on the right, one must realize that it's 300 yards to reach the front of the green from the back tees, so room needs to be given to tempt better players at all.  A miss slightly left will leave a very awkward bunker shot, while long will fall down the slope.  Right leaves an awkward pitch over the large mound.  I think even professionals would have a very difficult time hitting this green.

If anything, the green site may actually be too difficult to hit, even after a successful layup.  This was the primary reason why the judge did not like this hole.

I would be interested to see if your opinion changes after seeing this second image. 

[Garland Bayley]

Hi Ian,

The bunkers to the low side gave me the impression that they would provide an easy up and down since the slope of the green will be there to help stop the ball even when short sided.

I always assumed that the greens would be shaped to work better than the land on which they were draped. We were not instructed to detail our greens in this contest. Unfortunately, some of the judges and readers did not make the same assumption, as mine were criticized for being too often too difficult, and too domed. What I am trying to say here is that I judged more by the lay of the surrounding land, which led me to the above conclusion about the ease of escaping the bunkers.