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[Charlie Goerges]

I was planning on doing a big, long post with everyone’s holes in it, but I decided that individual posts would be more conducive to discussion. I’ll try not to do more than a couple per night. And I’ll post the reduced size aerials at the bottom. Ignore the white circles, those were from the esker discussion.


Okay to kick things off, on the heels of our ponderous preponderance discussion, it’s GBay’s 3rd hole. This is a shortish par 5 with no bunkers, lakes, or other artificial hazards. I felt like this hole contains the best of what “gravity golf” has to offer. Here is a look from behind the tee with Paddy Harrington showing us how to play it.





I won’t try to describe the method of play (Garland can do that) but the use of the contour is quite good in my opinion. The way the ridge in the landing area runs diagonally added with the diagonal direction of each of the forward teeing areas (technically they are ribbon-style tees) makes the tee shot seem very strategic, and roughly proportional in its difficulty with regard to where one tees off.


Below we have the view from behind the green looking back. This is a perfect example of a crowned/elevated green. What’s more, I think it is the ideal green for this hole. Without artificial hazards, and since the green is probably easily reachable for the better player, the green-site needs to be somewhat severe to challenge the better player.





Since most higher handicap players will com up short in 2 or even 3 shots, they’ll have a suitably challenging chip or pitch shot. For the low-handicap player, being even a little off in any direction could mean a very tough par since the long-iron approach will be coming in with some velocity. That velocity combined with gravity could feed the ball well away from the green.

Well, here I’ve gone on longer than I planned, and talked a little strategy as well (sorry Garland). Let’s see what you guys think.


Aerial (Hole 3 is lower-middle):

[Charlie Goerges]

I’m not bumping Garland, but in an effort to keep moving, up next is Jim Colton’s Par 3 17th.

One of the judges made the criticism that Jim had too many redan-esque greens that angled away at 45 degrees. Whether that criticism is valid or not overall I don’t know, but it certainly isn’t true of this green. I believe that this was the only par 3 I chose as a “favorite”. I like it because from the tee it is something of a skyline green and the view behind, over the wide-open wetland area and the surrounding environs looks inspiring.






Again, I don’t want to overstep my bounds on strategy, but on this one you can really play the ball short and let that thing run onto the green, especially for a back hole location. The fronting bunkers as seen below serve to capture anyone who gets too greedy with an aerial approach to a back pin.






Jim, can you take us through your thought process on this hole? How did it come together, was it an early addition to your routing, or later? Did you contemplate the view at all?


Aerial (hole 17 is lower right):






Again, I’m not pre-empting Garland, no more new holes from me until tomorrow night at the earliest. Let the boys know what you think of 'em!

[Ian_Linford]

I love both these holes.  As Charlie mentioned, that ridge on Garland's par-5 does a great job of dividing well-placed tee shots from the average shot.  I also imagine the green is blind from the left side of the fairway?

Jim's hole reminds me a bit of Pacific Dunes' 5th hole (although the details on PD's hole make it spectacular IMO).  One question for Jim: did you think about leaving the left side bunkerless?

[Jim Colton]

Thanks Charlie.  The 17th is named after the Snoop song 'Beautiful' which I think fits well.  As I mentioned in the hole by holes, this was actually the last hole that I built.  I had a similar par 3 that finished off to the right and tee off to the right of my 16th green, but it was completely blind when I actually looked at it in sketchup.  So I moved the green to the side of the hill, drew it up and was pleasantly surprised when I looked at it from ground level.  If nothing else, it's a good looking hole.

As far as the bunkers go, I really had no idea where/when/how many when it came to bunker placement, so I just drew em in and hoped for the best.  That back left bunker could be removed.  I guess I wanted the golfer to be able to use the slope to feed into the green, but not just any ol' shot that starts left to make it on the putting surface.

Again, because I really had no idea what I was doing, I ended up choosing green sites that were largely in flat spots on the topo, assuming that some shaping of the greens would occur.  I didn't have any idea how to stick a green on  a slope, for example, and make it work.  This one seemed to work, but it was the last hole that I worked on.  I am currently going back and re-working my routing to try to improve upon it, just for personal edification.  I hope to do a better job in utilizing the contours in both the fairways and the green sites.  If anybody has any recommendations or comments on the rest of my routing, I'd gladly appreciate the honest feedback.

Personally, I like my 15th hole for similar reasons, mostly because it looks good.  I will probably rework the fairway and the bunkering to make it better strategically, but I just love the green location and how it looks from the tee.  I think Yannick commented to put the green up and to the left but I wouldn't change it.  I think my 13th-17th stretch is pretty strong.  They look like they could be real golf holes, which is pretty good for a hack like me.  18 is probably cliche Petey Dye but it is what it is.

[Garland Bayley]

I measure the carry shown in Charlie's depiction of Padraig's drive to be approximately 330 yards. Unfortunately, Sketchup is not good a measuring. I rotated the view to be a more horizontal one so that I could pick the contour exactly for measuring the drive, and Sketchup measured from back tee to green to be 316 yards. I planned most of my routing for drives of 280 for the back tees, 230 from the middle tees, and 180 from the front tees. A drive of 280 from the back tees on this hole would leave you in the rough on the face of the ridge. 300 should get you to the top of the ridge in the rough. Rotate that drive a little left into the fairway, and to my estimation the green is blind from there. Even though the green is reachable in two, I wanted it to be a difficult second shot.

I did not design any of my holes for the tour pros. So Padraig and friends can eat the hole up with their big bombs and short iron seconds.

This was my favorite par 5 as it used gravity golf hazards to challenge the second shot for those trying to reach in two, and some blindness for the second for those playing it as a three shotter. Even for playing as a three shotter, the green is on a raised location to add some gravity golf difficulty.

[Charlie Goerges]

I think you're measuring one ridge too far Garland. I have paddy at 250 yards and he's not all the way back. So I agree with you that it's not the tour-length player you should design for.

That said, this was one of my favorite, if not my absolute favorite, par 5s in the competition. As you said, a decent drive will likely run down to the left and the view for the second (if going for it in two) would be blocked by that ridge that's up there about 330. A good trade-off for having a chance to go for it in two, if you ask me. It also appears that the view to the landing area if playing it as a 3-shotter is not obscured so much.

As for the green, it has nice roll-offs in pretty much all directions, though the putting surface is predominantly back to front (or so it looks).

Does anyone find that this hole is similar to the 8th at Crystal Downs? I've only seen the hole in photos.

[Garland Bayley]

I see if I look at your golfer that you clearly are not measuring from the tips. So I think I measured to the same ridge, just from a different starting point.

[Garland Bayley]

RE: JC's 17th

Charlie,

You realize that if it is a skyline green, you won't be seeing the water behind it, don't you? Also, it looks pretty much like an inverse Redan to me.

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie,

Can you let us download the other sketchup files so we can fly around the other design?

[Charlie Goerges]

Sure, why not. I'll try to get to that tonight.


RE the skyline/view thing: Why you hasslin' me! Actually I'd say the green is skyline, but you can see the view to right and beyond.

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Charlie,

Ummm ... something about tuna goes here. E.g., I'm gon tuna try to be better in the future.

[Slag Bandoon]

"You can tune a piano but you can't tune a fish."       Unk

[Charlie Goerges]

I'm just joshin' you Garland. But I will take a tuna sandwich.

[Charlie Goerges]

Here is a link for the contestants files if you wish to download them.

http://cid-f73fd6728c175582.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Entries

Charlie

[Charlie Goerges]

My next favorite is Dave Stringer’s 7th hole. It is a nice par 4 that doglegs to the right and down the hill. It’s 260 to the inside corner of the dogleg, so if you can hit it there with a fade, you’ll run down the hill. I have to say that without the trees, there is not much to prevent you from bombing it straight toward the green.

Behind the Tee:




I wish I could say that I had a lot of strategery in mind when choosing this hole, but I chose it first on how nicely it fit the lay of the land. That said, I think the bunkering could be a bit more natural looking. But that may just be a function of the sketchup tools.


Behind the Green:




One thing you’ll find is that the majority (or preponderance if you will) of my favorites occupy the same, or similar areas on the map. I didn’t plan it that way, but I’ve noticed it. Is that because that area is the best part of the property, or because I lack imagination?


Aerial (the hole is lower middle):

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie,

Are you into quirk? How did you like Jim's 2/3 Dell Hole? When I get a chance, I want to download his sketchup file and do some flying around that one.

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie,

I agree. The density of possible great holes was higher in that part of the property.
The esker area was the next best area.

[Garland Bayley]

I think it is useful to see what one judge had to say about Jim's 17th.

Hole no. 17 is a great looking par 3 with what should be a nice backdrop and interesting ground features.  Looks like balls could be played on the ground on the left side of the green and feed down to the putting surface.
...
Best Holes:    Hole no. 7 - Par 4
      Hole no. 13 - Par 4
Hole no. 17 - Par 3

[Charlie Goerges]

I liked Jim's dell hole. I thought the angle he used gave some latitude for making it a blind shot or one with good visibility depending on the hole location and the tee used.

I'm glad to see I'm not just weird for choosing too many holes in one area. I do like quirk, and I appreciate it much more since discovering GCA than I ever did before. Since quirk is not always very strategic, it fits in nicely with my general lack of strategic thinking.

[Ian_Linford]

lack of strategic thinking.

Charlie, looking at the holes you've chosen and other comments on our courses, I don't believe you.

I love this latest hole, by the way.  A fade is strongly favored, but others can still get around the hole without too much trouble.  If it were me, I would do away with the left fairway bunkers and keep that all as fairway to let the golfers themselves decide the best route to the hole.  Might not be as artistic, though...

[Charlie Goerges]

lack of strategic thinking.

Charlie, looking at the holes you've chosen and other comments on our courses, I don't believe you.

I love this latest hole, by the way.  A fade is strongly favored, but others can still get around the hole without too much trouble.  If it were me, I would do away with the left fairway bunkers and keep that all as fairway to let the golfers themselves decide the best route to the hole.  Might not be as artistic, though...

Alright, you got me. I do try to bring some strategic thought into my choices and comments. I do have to work at it though as my initial thought is usually to the pretty-ness of the hole. I tend toward the artistic in how I look at things that can be as pretty as some holes are. But as I have learned, the prettiest are not always the most fun (wait, am I still talking about golf holes  )

[Jim Colton]

In all fairness, I think it's a 1/3 dell hole. I like it  a lot better than the real thing, in that you can see most of the green. Even if the pin was partially blind, you'd have some sense of distance.  The EH dell has no real depth to it. Just hit over a white rock and hope for the best.  

[Garland Bayley]

...I do have to work at it though as my initial though is usually to the pretty-ness of the hole. I tend toward the artistic in how I look at things that can be as pretty as some holes are. But as I have learned, the prettiest are not always the most fun (wait, am I still talking about golf holes  )

Ha!  A recoverging Fazio/Nicklaus-aholic.

[Charlie Goerges]

Next on the “docket” is Steve Lang’s Par 5 13th. I like this one because it tumbles both downhill and across the fall-line across some of the best topography on the site. The tee shot sets up a bit blind, but raising the tee or moving it a bit might help, but honestly I don’t think it’s a real big deal to just leave it a little blind.







The strategy involves trade-offs depending on what you preferred poison might be. Keep the tee shot to the right to offer the shortest distance to the green and take the greenside bunker and wetland out of play, but the second is then blind(er) and off a more severe side-hill lie. Play the tee shot out to the left and bring the bunkers and wetland into play but you’ll have a flatter lie with better visibility.








Aerial (The 13th is lower center to middle left with the green near the red spot depicting the wetland):








P.S. Ian! we need to see your hole by hole brother.

P.P.S. Jim, still looking forward to seeing your renovations.

P.P.P.S. I'm working on my own routing that I'll post for derision and mockery once I've gotten my favs done. It might just be an aerial with a couple of 3D images.

[Charlie Goerges]

You know Jim, I just noticed that Ballysnoop didn't even last as long as Erin Hills before needing a remodel.

[Jim Colton]

You know Jim, I just noticed that Ballysnoop didn't even last as long as Erin Hills before needing a remodel.

I caved to the whims of the USGA.  Keeping my fingers crossed that Ballysnoop will land a US Open.

[Garland Bayley]

Nice use of terrain to suggest the player go up the left side of the hole bringing the bunker into play. However, it is unfortunate that the pond is a hazard by the green. Both ponds were used this way by Mr. Lang. As you know, I am not a fan of this, but I much prefer this usage than his other usage.

Charlie,

Did the judges pick best par 3, par 4, and par 5?


Had to edit this. Looking a the hole from behind the green made me mislabel the fairway side.

[Charlie Goerges]

Some of them did Garland, but it was a bit haphazard and so I just kind of filed it away in the back of my mind. I'll probably drag some of that information out just before the end.

[Charlie Goerges]

Up next is Greg Davis’ 11th hole, a short par 4. I liked it because the “Line of Instinct” (Edit: I originally said: "Line of Charm". Thanks to GBay for educating me!) draws you to play toward the green while the best option appears to be out to the right, which is a blind shot.






I also like the fact that there is a lot of width with nice rolling contours throughout the fairway. The view from behind the green below shows how much to the right you need to play to have the easiest angle into the green. It also shows how those who can brave the blindness and trust their swings will be rewarded. One possible problem is the completely blind bunker. What do folks think of that?






Aerial (the hole is in the middle of the image below):

[Charlie Goerges]

The next hole is Andy Gray’s par 5 17th. Several of the contestants ran a par 5 hole over this section of the property. The image below shows just how much strategy must be thought out before playing the hole. Try to hit the smaller section of fairway to the right in order to have a decent view of the green for going at it in 2 as well as having the mound play less havoc with the shot.






The view from behind reveals the strategic options near the green. There is a large area of flattish fairway short and right of the green (from the player’s perspective) for the 3rd-shot approach. This area gives the best angle for holding the ball on the green because of the severe left to right slope of the green. It also appears that this area would probably be easier to access from the safer left part of the fairway off the tee.






Aerial (Hole is top right):

[Ian_Linford]

P.S. Ian! we need to see your hole by hole brother.

Sorry, I'll get another batch of holes done by tonight.

[Charlie Goerges]

No pressure Ian, I just want everyone to get their day in the sun.

[Garland Bayley]

How did those fairway bunkers get in Greg's hole?

[Charlie Goerges]

How did those fairway bunkers get in Greg's hole?

I'm not quite sure I follow.

[Garland Bayley]

Charlie,

Do you have a fetish for par 5s? You drew the tee shot on Anthony's hole to challenge the fairway bunker. Wouldn't a better angle be obtained by taking it over near the right rough? Sometimes the line of charm is not obvious and one has to overcome instinct to find it. Great hole for the high handicapper who will find zigging left followed by zagging right an interesting challenge.