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Yannick Pilon

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San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« on: March 13, 2009, 09:54:33 PM »
What would be the most interesting course to see or play around San Diego?

Rancho Santa Fe?
Torrey Pines?
La Costa?
Barona Creek?
Aviara?

And by most interesting, I mean most interesting.  Not necessarily most renowned!  Is there anything good by a Golden Age architect?  Anything new that is worth seeing?

Thanks for any ideas...

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

David Stamm

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2009, 11:33:40 PM »
Yannick, I find Barona Creek to be the most interesting of the courses, public or private, in San Diego with Rancho Santa Fe a close second along with San Diego Country Club. Torrey has the pretty setting, but I wouldn't call it interesting by any means. La Costa probably has more intersting holes than Toreey, but save your money. There's alot of mediocre holes and the conditions are not always the best. Aviara has alot of pretty flower beds, but little else. As far as the Golden Age courses, Rancho Santa Fe and San Diego CC are the two best with La Jolla CC a distant third. Balboa Park has a few neat holes, but a few bad ones as well. There is not much Golden Age architecture to be found here, I'm ashamed to say.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Bob_Huntley

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2009, 11:47:34 PM »
Barona Creek and then Rancho Santa Fe, no arguments.


Bob

Peter Ferlicca

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2009, 12:12:11 PM »
Barona Creek is by far your best bet Yannick, unless you have connections to get on the private courses like Rancho Santa Fe and SDCC.  Barona is a very enjoyable round, with a lot of fun golf holes, and some of the best putting greens you will putt on.

Damon Groves

Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2009, 12:43:23 PM »
Absolutely Barona Creek. For Torrey Pines South the "Open Doctor" ruined it and if I was to play there I actually prefer the North course now. Aviara is pretty and has a few decent holes but for the most part is not worth it.

Tim Leahy

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 01:40:43 PM »
Barona Creek and Torrey South. Only place in SD they have played the Open is Torrey South! It is not Pebble but it is definitely interesting.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 01:52:46 PM »
Where to play in San Diego?


Resorts:

Barona Creek     619-387-7018
     This is the must play course in the San Diego area. Just a 30 minute drive from downtown, Todd Eckenrode’s creation in Wild Cat Canyon offers a thrill for every class of golfer. The course features strategic bunkering, scattered at different distances, through the wide fairways. Firm and fast conditions put a premium on attacking from the correct angles to the highly contoured greens. Hotel and Casino on site.

Torrey Pines     (reservations) 619-570-1234
     South:  The host for the 2008 US Open is set up as a test of the modern game. Even from the white tees (6,880) this course plays long. Rees improved the 3 holes he moved to the canyon’s edge (3, 4&14) but 18 double plateau greens are a bit repetitive. Green conditions can now justify the $160-$200 rate.
     North The proposed redesign has been postponed, here’s your chance to play what could be William Francis Bell’s best work. Better use of terrain, nicely contoured set of pushup greens, surely the more scenic of the two courses.
     Golfers can show up as early as they want to line up for the morning’s first hour of tee times (cars line up in the parking lot on weekends, during the week you place your golf bag in line in front of the starters booth on the balcony); singles stand a decent chance of getting off through the waiting list in the afternoon.

Carlton Oaks     619-448-4500
     This Perry Dye redesign has all the “dye-abolical” trademarks: waste areas, pot bunkers, bulk headed water hazards and many greens that slope away in the back. At 7,225 75.2/146from the tips it’s definitely the second toughest layout in the County. Lots of fun from the blue or white tees though. Hotel on site.

La Costa     760-438-9111
     Fans of Dick Wilson will enjoy the artistry of the bunkering on the original tournament course. The bad news is it has been split into the South, with 9 holes shoehorned in by Wilson and the North with its’ additional 9 holes on ample ground with good movement across the street, done by Joe Lee. Unfortunately neither nines are a match for the original work. Sometimes the Resort will let the first group off the North actually play the tournament course, so long as they can beat the first group off the South to the back 9.

Warner Springs Ranch     760-782-4270
     High desert course is both scenic and challenging. The remote atmosphere makes this course special; resort rooms have no TV or phones! Little over an hour from downtown but very close to Barona.


Municipal:

Coronado     619-435-3121
     Jack Daray designed San Diego’s “Hidden Gem”, built on fill dredged from the harbor in the 50’s, it has 4 holes that play along Glorietta Bay, subtle doglegs test driving ability, the pushup greens punish poor iron play, wind is often a factor. At $25/day for everyone it’s the best deal in town.

Balboa Park     (reservations)  619-570-1234
     Built in 1918 by William Park Bell, this short (6,281) trip out through the canyons and back across the mesa has remained a tough track to score on. Sam Snead’s course record 60, shot here while in the Navy in WWII, still stands. Views of downtown and the Coronado Islands, walkups should have no trouble playing here.

Encinitas Ranch     760-944-1936
     Located ten minutes north of Torrey Pines and five minutes south of Legoland this is an enjoyable and reasonably priced daily fee course. Wide open front nine is complemented by the canyons on the back. Built on the site of a former flower ranch, conditions are usually good.

CCFAD’s:

Maderas CC     858-451-8100
     Built on a hilly site this course promises the thrilling downhill holes off the bat, the key here is how much fun the uphill holes are. Neal Meagher’s perfect mix off unique green sites are worth the price of admission alone. Soon to go private when enough memberships are sold.

Del Mar National     858-792-6200
     The only Fazio course in San Diego County; All golfers really want is a thrill; this course comes up short here. Very playable and takes a great picture, but the tea cups at Disney Land are more exciting than this place.

Salt Creek, formerly The Auld Course     619-482-4666
     Although built to sell houses you would find it hard to hit one from the golf course. Die hard walkers beware, you must ride here. Cary Bickler and John Cook have crafted some fine holes here, well worth a look if you’re in the South Bay area.

Privates:

Rancho Santa Fe CC
     Don’t pass up an opportunity to play here. Max Behr’s 1929 layout got the highest Doak rating in San Diego County (5).

La Jolla CC
     Canyon golf at its best from William Park Bell, built in 1927.

San Diego CC
     Another William Park Bell layout with several barrancas was built in 1921. The redesigned greens seem unsympathetic to the Bell style.

Tijuana CC
     The course claims a MacKenzie heritage, but it sure looks like a William Park Bell to me; possibly during his relationship with Tillinghast. Close enough to the border to take the trolley down and hop in a cab for the short journey to the golf course; public access allowed.

Pauma Valley
     The only Robert Trent Jones course in San Diego County is in the high desert just past Barona; once rated within the top 20 in Ca.

Military:

Marine Memorial   GC, Camp Pendleton     760-725-4704
     Set within the expansive Marine base this course by William Francis Bell occupies a peaceful and secluded river valley 50 minutes from downtown. Somewhat shaggy conditioning here doesn’t detract from the enjoyment. Course is open to the public during the week due to a lack of Marines to keep the place going.

Miramar, Memorial GC     858-577-4155
     Jack Daray shows how to turn a flat parcel of land into an interesting golf course at the old Top Gun base. Now a Marine Corp Air Station it has some of the best conditioned greens in the County; wind and FA-18’s are always a factor here.

Sea & Air GC     619-545-9659
      Located on North Island Naval Air Station it is a tale of two nines, the front has been redesigned to eliminate the many parallel holes; defintely an improvement. However the back nine’s holes are wonderfully separated with 3 playing along the sand dunes right along the beach. The runway splits the back nine and you’ll have an opportunity to see many types of Military Aircraft practicing their touch and goes.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 03:09:37 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Pete Lavallee

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2009, 02:49:51 PM »
Here's a link to an interesting article in today's SD Union Tribune by Tod Leonard. it talks about changes at Barona Creek:

 http://www3.signonsandiego.com/sports/golf/
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Yannick Pilon

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 10:31:08 PM »
Thanks for your input, Pete. 

Very impressive list, although, nothing seems to jump at me as a "must see" course like you would find them in LA, Santa Barbara, Monterey or San Francisco....

I'll take a look at those courses, and see if I can play or see one or few of them when I'll be in San Diego in two weeks.

I'll let you know about my experience if I can squeeze a round in between two amusement parks with the kids!

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

CJ Carder

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2009, 09:32:26 AM »
Yannick,

I don't think any of them are going to stun you from an interesting / architectural point of view.  But I will put in my vote for TP South, if for no other reason than it's a chance to play an Open Course and the views from the canyon holes are beautiful.  Don't go with any expectations, just go to have fun playing and enjoy whatever else comes along with it.

CJ

Yannick Pilon

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2009, 01:48:21 PM »
Thanks CJ,

This was also my initial feel, but I am not sure I am ready to get up at 5 in the morning, wait in the parking lot for a few hours and not be sure I'll be able to play, and pay 200$ to do this.

And 6800 yds from the white tees?  That's ridiculous....  Isn't that even longer than the Black Course at Bethpage?  The Black course took me 6 hours to play and we finished in the dark!  How long is Torrey Pines going to take at that lenght? 6 and a half hours?

Torrey Pines ain't the Black course.  The only course where I did all of the above was the Old Course, and hell, that one cost me more than 300$ three years ago!!  But it was worth it!!

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Pete Lavallee

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2009, 03:23:09 PM »
Yannick,

For $39 you can make an advanced booking at Torrey pines South; the weekday rate for out of towners is $160, it's $200 for the weekend only. Strangely enough play moves along quite smartly on the South Course due to 10 minute spacing between tee times; most rounds are finished in less than 4 hours and 20 minutes. The North Course uses 7 minute spacing and rounds there are always over 5 hours. There is a green tee option, which basically has the marker at the very front of every tee box which plays at 6540 yards.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 03:26:56 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mike_Cirba

Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2009, 10:22:06 PM »
How close is today's Balboa Park to William Bell's original design?


David Stamm

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2009, 10:30:30 PM »
How close is today's Balboa Park to William Bell's original design?




Some holes are close, others, not so much. I'm sure Forrest will chime in on specifics.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2009, 07:07:46 AM »
Pete L, your short description of Barona Creek could not be more spot on.  What a wonderful course.  These guys sure could give a few modern architects a lesson in green construction. These greens put a huge premium on where one hits one's approach. Sometimes being off the green in front was a better alternative than the back of the green or even pin high.  What an imaginative, balanced, beautiful, perfectly maintained course.  The best set of greens as far as design and maintenance that I have seen in some time. 

Jon Heise

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2009, 12:08:07 PM »
I played Torrey South Monday.  Absolutely loved it.  Sure, some may criticize it, but I enjoyed the course as much as the views.
I still like Greywalls better.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2009, 01:45:59 PM »
The best set of greens as far as design and maintenance that I have seen in some time. 

Jeff,

The amazing thing is that out of the 50 odd courses in SD County they are the only one with pure bent grass greens! There is not a single clump of poa in them. Why, because they get people on their hands and knees digging the clumps out of the greens and fringes with pen knives. Sandy Clark and his crew do a fantastic job maintaining the course; it's firm and fast with absolute minimal water application. They have started to not water off the fairways where there are now rough patches transitioning into the native areas. My only lament is the loss of the alternate right hand fairway on #13; they said it was taken out of play because it wasn't working as envisioned, but that a load of cod's whallop. They wanted to save on watering it. It really did make sense for those of us who play it as a three shot hole to play to the right fairway when the pin is cut far left; I know Todd designed that strategy into the hole. Thankfully that is the only thing I can find to disagree with about this wonderful golf course; except the price. :( 
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jud_T

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2009, 01:53:02 PM »
Barona Creek, RSF
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Matt_Cohn

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2009, 01:59:48 PM »
I think La Costa's reputation comes more from its history than the course itself. It's "nice", and one of the better courses in San Diego, but I'd rather play any of those other four.

Jud_T

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2009, 02:36:11 PM »
Tim,

If you find Torrey interesting you real must get out more... :P
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: San Diego Area: Torrey Pines, Rancho Santa Fe or other?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 02:37:21 PM »
Many, many daily-fee courses charge as much as Barona without as good of a design or anything even resembling that level of maintenance.  If they are going to have the crew crawling around on their hands and knees keeping the greens that pure, that's going to have a cost.  I guess I'd say that if you don't think greens of that quality are worth paying up for, then go play somewhere else.  But I think I can count on one hand the number of courses I played (public or private)  in the last two years that had greens as good as Barona's yesterday.

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