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Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #250 on: July 09, 2009, 12:47:58 PM »
Rich:  thank you.  Logic and reason has entered the room.

 ;D

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #251 on: July 09, 2009, 12:49:54 PM »
TH,

Change is constant- things are never in equilibrium.  We are either moving forward or backwards.  It seems to me that with all the challenges golf is facing, if I shoot a distance with a handheld while sitting on my fat ass in an air-conditioned golf cart during a friendly match with consenting opponents, who gives a rat's ass whether we're playing a brand of golf Old Tom might approve of?

And if Old Tom seemed to support changing the game and its rules for a version more favorable to his advantage or enjoyment, who is to say that as his eyes failed him or he played unfamiliar courses extensively, that he would not endorse yardage markers of some sort or even lasers if they were available in his day?  In reading the "old" gca literature, I sensed that the architects were foremost practical and economical.  MacKenzie talked about "labour" saving devices.  I suspect that he was a stickler for speeding things up.

Might we be projecting too much to tradition what is little more than the age-old wistful longing for things we idealize not as they were?  You know, the "good ole days" that upon further scrutiny weren't all that good while we were going through them.  But I digress.     

Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #252 on: July 09, 2009, 12:52:34 PM »
Lou:

I agree with you.

Still, I do wish distance markings would never have started being used.  I do think the game would have been more fun that way, and more "right" as I see it.  But I also know that I know that they distance has come to be not only used, but mandatory for the vast majority of golfers.  And that what Rich just posted has been in essence my point all along.

That makes some sense, doesn't it?

TH

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #253 on: July 09, 2009, 02:35:41 PM »

Lou

I have always believed that Golf was first a challenge, which generated fun, pleasure, entertainment and enjoyment. Easy has never been a part of the game until recently. Easy is not necessary fun or enjoyable just plain boring and easy. If it is easy why rise to the easy challenge, its just too easy and would it be worth the effort. Easy is not the answer for the future of Golf IMHO.

Melvyn


Melyvn,

Your last comment is where I and others see a huge disconnect in what you do and don't support.

A big part of why equipment and clothing changes have happened over the years are to make the game easier.  When Old Tom made the new gutta percha wasn't the game made easier by the ball flying straighter and longer?  Are you seriously going to claim that new equipment hasn't made the game far easier than it was just 30-40 years ago as well as light years ahead from 150 years ago?

The day you go back to playing only featheries and hickories, and wearing heavy, bulky wool clothing like the old-timers is the day you will at least be consitent in your viewpoints.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #254 on: July 09, 2009, 02:46:11 PM »
Kalen

Thats your opinion and you have a right to it. May I suggest that perhaps you could do some research in future to confirm your  statements.  Easy is not golf, its just easy, however if that is the name of your game, then its a free world enjoy the easy ways.

Melvyn
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 02:51:10 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #255 on: July 09, 2009, 03:01:57 PM »
Kalen:

As one who disdains yardage-finder thingys, I'll just throw in my two cents, and perhaps make the distinction that I think Melvyn and Shivas are making.

Golf really only has three main instruments of play -- the club, the ball, and the tee (and the tee is -- by historical standards -- fairly modern). There will always be advancements with all three of these instruments, and golfers depend on some governing agency (USGA, R&A) to provide some guidance as to what's appropriate and legal, and what's not. Within reasonable standards, I don't think anyone here on this thread opposes advancements in technology with the instruments one plays with.

All of the rest -- yardage books, pin sheets, caddies, flower buckets at 150 yds, and range finders -- are really outside instruments that help the golfer use the three primary instruments (club, ball, tee). I can see how folks may think the difference between a yardage book and a range finder is a distinction that's important (after all, the USGA and PGA allow one at tournaments, and not the other), while others view it as a paper-thin difference that's matters little in the inherent fairness of how the game is played. But both are outside instruments.

For those who argue on behalf of range finders, I'd be curious how many have ever played in Scotland, on non-major courses -- the kind of places in ordinary towns played by ordinary folks (like, Fraserburgh). I have never played golf, or seen golf played, as quickly as it is in Scotland (again, at the non-tourist golf haunts), and rarely did I see anyone consult a yardage book, or hunt for yardage markers, or ever use a range finder. But I also think that has something to do with how most Scots approach the game, compared to how most in the U.S. approach the game.

Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #256 on: July 09, 2009, 03:07:05 PM »
For those who argue on behalf of range finders, I'd be curious how many have ever played in Scotland, on non-major courses -- the kind of places in ordinary towns played by ordinary folks (like, Fraserburgh). I have never played golf, or seen golf played, as quickly as it is in Scotland (again, at the non-tourist golf haunts), and rarely did I see anyone consult a yardage book, or hunt for yardage markers, or ever use a range finder. But I also think that has something to do with how most Scots approach the game, compared to how most in the U.S. approach the game.

Not that I am necessarily argue on behalf of range finders - remember, in my perfect world all distance info would be eliminated - but I just do argue for their use in the imperfect world we inhabit.

And I have played in Scotland (and Ireland) many times.  I fully undrerstand how their approach is different, wonderfully so.

My arguments for their use apply to USA golf only.  Here we are too late to be saved.  There, they have yet to be ruined.

TH

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #257 on: July 09, 2009, 03:12:01 PM »
Tom:

If, from a design perspective, golf in America can be yanked back from the excesses of Robert Trent Jones Sr. and Jack Nicklaus, and embrace nature as the best designer of golf courses (Sand Hills, Ballyneal, the Bandon courses -- I think you've played all three ;)), why can't we do the same with how the game is played? Just asking for small steps, taken one at a time, by a few courageous folks... :)

Rich Goodale

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #258 on: July 09, 2009, 03:12:18 PM »
Phil

I play most of my golf at mostly minor venues in Scotland, and that is where I have the experience noted in my 10:42 post above.  My last such game was on Monday at a 100+ year Old Tom Morris course (Balwearie), playing a boucne game with a former Captain of the Club who discretely but enthusiastically let me and our other playing companion know our distances on every shot where we seemed confused.  The three of us, average age 60+, played in under 3 hours on a very hilly course.

Rich

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #259 on: July 09, 2009, 03:21:10 PM »
The blame for this whole sordid affair lies squarely at the feet of Scotsmen. They came up with the game we play today, they were first to measure the overall yardage of a course and they were the first to place yardage signs on tee boxes. It only follows that once players got used to knowing total distance they would soon want to know how far it was from point A to point B while playing the hole......

...and they 'blame' Americans, sheesh.  ::)

« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 03:32:15 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #260 on: July 09, 2009, 03:34:36 PM »
Tom:

If, from a design perspective, golf in America can be yanked back from the excesses of Robert Trent Jones Sr. and Jack Nicklaus, and embrace nature as the best designer of golf courses (Sand Hills, Ballyneal, the Bandon courses -- I think you've played all three ;)), why can't we do the same with how the game is played? Just asking for small steps, taken one at a time, by a few courageous folks... :)

Phil, sadly I do not see the parallels, nor do I believe that courage is lacking.

It's just not practical, as Lou Duran has explained and Rich Goodale has confirmed.  Those are two men who are +6 handicaps in the intelligence department.  I'm gonna say I just trust them.

In any case yes I have been fortunate enough to play all three.  At Ballyneal, my great friends and playing companions used Bushnells, as we did not have caddies for the round in question and they couldn't get their heads around playing by feel alone.  That spoke volumes to me.. these are not Joe Q. Public cartballing rubes... these are guys who have accompanied me on all Scotland trips and get links golf, and traditional golf.  If they can't do it for just one round, there really is no hope.

TH

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #261 on: July 09, 2009, 03:58:49 PM »
Thomas, please don't confuse me with Goodale.  I am a not very good 5 on the course, and merely a hack in the world at large.

You were not playing with me at Sand Hills years ago in the a.m. round, but I could have used a good rangefinder on the first hole.  With a front left pin I hit a wedge right over the flag into an unplayable lie in the natives.  My "caddie" (one of the farm boys who disappeared after collecting his fee before the afternoon round) gave me a 110 yard distance to the flag.  In the afternoon (I think it was you, me, and Gene; yes, I had to pay after the round though I think I broke 80), I walked the distance from the spot, and it was closer to 95 yards.  My "caddie" that a.m. apparently got the distance to the middle of the green from his cheatsheet and didn't know the difference.

I would love to see the best oculists on the site play Sand Hills without references to yardage. 
 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #262 on: July 09, 2009, 04:02:35 PM »
Phil,

Thats all fine and good, I agree with everything in your post.

The odd/ironic/quizical part to me was Melyvn ranting about how the game is supposed to be a challenge, and not be easy, yet his Old Tom was one of the first ones to introduce something to the game, in the form of an improved ball that made the game much easier....

Go figure.....

Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #263 on: July 09, 2009, 04:06:10 PM »
Thomas, please don't confuse me with Goodale.  I am a not very good 5 on the course, and merely a hack in the world at large.

You were not playing with me at Sand Hills years ago in the a.m. round, but I could have used a good rangefinder on the first hole.  With a front left pin I hit a wedge right over the flag into an unplayable lie in the natives.  My "caddie" (one of the farm boys who disappeared after collecting his fee before the afternoon round) gave me a 110 yard distance to the flag.  In the afternoon (I think it was you, me, and Gene; yes, I had to pay after the round though I think I broke 80), I walked the distance from the spot, and it was closer to 95 yards.  My "caddie" that a.m. apparently got the distance to the middle of the green from his cheatsheet and didn't know the difference.

I would love to see the best oculists on the site play Sand Hills without references to yardage. 
 

Well.. you always impress me, Lou.

But yes, it is extremely tough - nay impossible - for us who have grown up playing no other way than use of distance markings, or references, to NOT play this way.  That's reason #15 why this can never happen here in the US.  There just would seem to be a tiny few for it, a massive majority against it.  So call it a genie, or a cat as Rich did, whatever you like, it's here to stay. 

TH

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #264 on: July 09, 2009, 04:52:08 PM »
Kalen:



For those who argue on behalf of range finders, I'd be curious how many have ever played in Scotland, on non-major courses -- the kind of places in ordinary towns played by ordinary folks (like, Fraserburgh). I have never played golf, or seen golf played, as quickly as it is in Scotland (again, at the non-tourist golf haunts), and rarely did I see anyone consult a yardage book, or hunt for yardage markers, or ever use a range finder. But I also think that has something to do with how most Scots approach the game, compared to how most in the U.S. approach the game.

Phil,
I have played golf in Scotland at the non-tourist haunts, so I know whereof you speak, but there is a problem with this argument, and I'm a good example of it.  I have played somewhere around 1500 rounds at my club, and when I play there now, I can walk it, if unimpeded by others, in about 2:20.  I never touch my rangefinder on that course, because I know every spot there.  Periodically, a guest will ask me the distance on a par three, and I have no idea; I just know that #6 is a 6 iron in the summer and a 5 iron in the winter.

Now, if you were to play there with me, you might consider me a "purist" or a model for what a golfer should be/do, just like the ordinary people in ordinary towns in Scotland that you reference.  BUT, I do NOT play that way elsewhere, and if I tried, I would play more slowly because I would be hitting far more shots due to having no idea what to hit.  Knowing yardage is practical and helpful, and there is a reason that markings on the course evolved.  We don't need them at the places we play repeatedly, but we need them badly elsewhere.  Americans play more golf "elsewhere" than Scots or just about anybody else, I would guess.

Ironically, my Bushnell rangefinder is being repaired.  I played my home course today and never thought once about it.  But yesterday, when I played at a new, unfamiliar course, I wished for it constantly.  I played well, and we played reasonably quickly, but I did a lot of pacing and mental math that really didn't add much to the experience.

To me, the rangefinder is like golf shoes, golf gloves, sunglasses, sunscreen, water on the course, a trail mix snack, and even the friends that I play with.  It improves the experience without fundamentally changing it. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #265 on: July 09, 2009, 04:56:46 PM »
The blame for this whole sordid affair lies squarely at the feet of Scotsmen. They came up with the game we play today, they were first to measure the overall yardage of a course and they were the first to place yardage signs on tee boxes. It only follows that once players got used to knowing total distance they would soon want to know how far it was from point A to point B while playing the hole......

...and they 'blame' Americans, sheesh.  ::)



Several years ago, a club here played a Ryder Cup-style match with a club from Scotland in consecutive years, alternating sites.  Because the HS golf team that I was coaching used the course as our home course, the pro told me that my players would have to caddy when the Scots came to play, and I agreed.

Well, to a man, the Scots wanted golf carts!  The only people walking were some of the Americans.  My players rode on the back of carts with the Scots and got yardages and cleaned clubs.  So I get a little skeptical when I'm told about the purism of Scots vs. Americans...
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Melvyn Morrow

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #266 on: July 09, 2009, 05:08:47 PM »

Kalen

It was not a rant, it was my opinion. As for the ball you may or may not agree with the following thats your right, but I think you need to understand certain points re the ball.

Old Tom did not make it easy, what he helped to achieve was to improve the ball to generate consistence in the game. The old feather ball would quickly misshape and the problem was exacerbated when wet. The gutta was solid, rolled better and gave the golfer the first ever round ball that could be called a ball. Nothing about making it easy. I have tried to explain this throughout that technology is not the enemy of golf if controlled and used to improve quality and give uniformity of play for all the equipment.

Golf was always about the challenge, what the gutta gave golf was the first real golf ball. The Haskell again improved the golf ball, but noting all the tests reported in the 1890’s many Pros did not want the Haskell as the gutta was as good and seems to have a slight edge re travel. What the Haskell gave was more uniformity and consistence plus was not prone to cracking or shattering. 

Melvyn

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #267 on: July 09, 2009, 05:24:42 PM »


I would love to see the best oculists on the site play Sand Hills without references to yardage. 
 

I don't know, Lou -- range finders strike me a bit like cigarettes. Sure, I tried them, once, and intensly disliked them. I once played two holes using a range finder with a buddy who brought his, then chose not to use it again. Haven't touched one since.

I'd play Sand Hills without a range finder, too, if given the opportunity. But then I don't care too much about my score, and I'm not very good, so the difference to me between 95 and 110 yards is not that important.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #268 on: July 09, 2009, 05:32:19 PM »

Kalen

It was not a rant, it was my opinion. As for the ball you may or may not agree with the following thats your right, but I think you need to understand certain points re the ball.

Old Tom did not make it easy, what he helped to achieve was to improve the ball to generate consistence in the game. The old feather ball would quickly misshape and the problem was exacerbated when wet. The gutta was solid, rolled better and gave the golfer the first ever round ball that could be called a ball. Nothing about making it easy. I have tried to explain this throughout that technology is not the enemy of golf if controlled and used to improve quality and give uniformity of play for all the equipment.

Golf was always about the challenge, what the gutta gave golf was the first real golf ball. The Haskell again improved the golf ball, but noting all the tests reported in the 1890’s many Pros did not want the Haskell as the gutta was as good and seems to have a slight edge re travel. What the Haskell gave was more uniformity and consistence plus was not prone to cracking or shattering. 

Melvyn


Melyvn,

Thanks for proving my points... lets review.

The new ball was:

1)  "Easier" to hit straight  - Check!
2)  "Easier" to hit consitent shots - Check!
3)  "Easier" to hit longer - Check!
4)  "Easier" to putt due to staying round - Check!
5)  "Easier" to maintain due to not cracking/warping/shattering - Check!
6)  "Easier" to play in wet conditions - Check!

Sounds like it sure made the game a helluva lot easier for those blokes back then....but I could be wrong!!!  ;)