(more?) proof that distance-finders save time

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom, the fantasy is the groupthink that makes one believe that LaserBall is Golf.

No Dave, the fantasy is that genies can be made to go back in bottles.

It's all golf to me.  You and those of your ilk can make up different names for it... that's cool.  I'll continue to have fun playing, while you sit there pissed off.

 

[Eric Smith]

To the critics of these things (please note I do not have one and have yet to play with someone who has one):

When you play golf with someone new, say a fellow gca guy for instance, and on the first fairway he pulls out one of these things, does/would this ruin your day or worse yet, cause you not to want to play again with this person?  I ask this because there seems to be so much railing against such things typed out on this board I wonder what really happens when out on the playing field.

Any testimonials of being 'converted' after spending a day playing with someone who had one of these?  Just curious...

[Tom Huckaby]

Eric - that's a good question, and a good point.

I do not use one myself while playing.  I have to use them for course rating purposes, so I know how effective they can be.  But I tend to not need really exact distances... looking at a sprinkler head, kirby marker, bush whatever and estimating works fine for me damn near all the time.

But I have played with quite a few people who use them.  And you know what?  So long as they PLAY FAST, what the hell do I care how they get their distances?  And pretty much invariably, it has played out as stated in this thread - use of the devices makes these guys go faster.  So I am supposed to be against that?  Why?

NOTE ALSO:   in another thread I went on and on, arguing for elimination of all distance information... to me it would be a better game that way.  My friend Dave gave a rules change that could make it happen.  I think in an absolute respect it could work.

I just don't think it's ever going to happen.  I also understand about slippery slopes.  But give me a faster game v. a slower game and I am gonna take the faster.  I just don't get how anyone can in their right mind disagree with that.

But many here have left minds.

 

[Eric Smith]

Is being able to eyeball yardages to +/- a couple of yards from anywhere on the golf course a gift or a result of experience?

I wonder because I've always been really good at it and unless my eyes start to go, I don't think I'd ever really need or want to carry an aid.

And I'm the same as you Tom on this, if the pace of play isn't compromised I don't see how I would mind one iota how someone gets their yardages.  Just please don't ask me ALL day 'how far am I?'

[Lou_Duran]

Eric,

Not at all on the first question, though when I see a guy who whines forever about markings on a ball then pulls out a putter that's longer than my driver, I have to wonder whether he is seriously intellectually challenged or just agitating (in this particular case, it is the latter).

I also have to scratch my head when I play with those who extol the traditions of the game, strategic design, and fast play then proceed to sport a bagfull of the latest high tech eqipment, play ProVs, hop on a cart, hit a driver off the tee on nearly every hole including some par 3s, and can't keep up with the rest.  As a group we tend to talk a much different game than we play.

As to a testimonial, I haven't been tempted to acquire one of these range finders, but after the experience I described, I probably will some day.  I really do not see much of a difference in terms of playing in the spirit of the game between cementing distances in the brain from repeated play and getting a distance from a real or computerized caddie.  The whole idea from day 1 was to get the ball from point A to point X in the fewest number of strokes.  It is not like the first players stuck to the original balls, implements, methods, and fields of play.

[Tom Huckaby]

Eric:  I am old enough to remember playing without distance markings.. and I have tried to do so in recent years from time to time also... I'd say this:

Like the golf swing itself, the ability to eyeball distances correctly can be a God-given gift, but it also can be learned.

But the key to the whole thing is this:  IF distance info were removed.. and if we all went back to this different style of play... well... you wouldn't be eyeball DISTANCES (ie, that looks like 150), you'd be eyeballing WHAT CLUB TO HIT (ie, that looks like a 7iron).  That's what Melvyn is driving at in a lot of his takes here... and that to me is a way more fun, way more pure way to play.  Distance would cease to matter other than as a starting point on holes... we'd judge what club to hit based on what the shot looks like, rather than what any number states.  Oh it would be VERY tough to do, especially for all of us who have never done it.  And as I say, it ain't bloody likely to be mandated, nor is it really possible on most courses here, which are so clearly marked... But in a very pure, fantasy golf world, it would be damn fun - and yes I think, a better game.

But back to reality - thanks for seeing the logic of how it really does work today in the US.

TH

[Eric Smith]

Speaking of what CLUB to hit rather that what distance am I; yesterday I made a conscious effort to hit one club more than my brain told me to hit and swing as usual and damnit I hit tons of greens!  Always learning and enjoying the self discovery in this game.  But geez, What a stupid I am going on 31 years playing it...

[Tom Huckaby]

Speaking of what CLUB to hit rather that what distance am I; yesterday I made a conscious effort to hit one club more than my brain told me to hit and swing as usual and damnit I hit tons of greens!  Always learning and enjoying the self discovery in this game.  But geez, What a stupid I am going on 31 years playing it...

LOL!
No Eric, you become a stupid the day you claim you have it all figured out.  One of the greatest parts of this game we love is that we can come to these epiphanies at any given time.  Because you know what?  That method is likely to fail at some point, and you'll start pin-seeking using one club less and hitting the shit out of it.

 

[Eric Smith]

Speaking of what CLUB to hit rather that what distance am I; yesterday I made a conscious effort to hit one club more than my brain told me to hit and swing as usual and damnit I hit tons of greens!  Always learning and enjoying the self discovery in this game.  But geez, What a stupid I am going on 31 years playing it...

LOL!
No Eric, you become a stupid the day you claim you have it all figured out.  One of the greatest parts of this game we love is that we can come to these epiphanies at any given time.  Because you know what?  That method is likely to fail at some point, and you'll start pin-seeking using one club less and hitting the shit out of it.

 

I know...you're right, but I'm feeling like a golfer again today and it feels good!

[Lou_Duran]

Just what golf needs, more difficulty and longer rounds.  How do we overcome lifelong conditioning to measure everything?  Ever take a trip without a map or visual references?  There is plenty of research that shows we don't see or perceive things very accurately.  The proposal to rid golf of all distance references is as silly as it is impractical.  I can see how Barry at CPC and the caddie lobby might be all for it, but, isn't golf also too expensive?

[Tom Huckaby]

Lou:
Sadly I am with you.  It's impractical as all hell, as things stand today.  That's why I mentioned genies and bottles to shivas.

I just do think in a dream perfect world, it would be a better way to play.

Very few worlds are dreamy or perfect.

 

[Eric Smith]

As to a testimonial, I haven't been tempted to acquire one of these range finders, but after the experience I described, I probably will some day.  I really do not see much of a difference in terms of playing in the spirit of the game between cementing distances in the brain from repeated play and getting a distance from a real or computerized caddie.  The whole idea from day 1 was to get the ball from point A to point X in the fewest number of strokes.  It is not like the first players stuck to the original balls, implements, methods, and fields of play.

Lou,
You know there has got to be tons of these being sold, heck look at the golf catalogs that come in your mailbox.  The first pages are dedicated to range finders/gps hand helds.  Move over R9 Driver, Callaway X - 6Million, it's all ball bearings these days.

[Sean_A]

There is plenty of research that shows we don't see or perceive things very accurately.

Lou

Did ever think that is one reason why some shots are designed to be deceptive?

Ciao

[Rob Rigg]

So after a week or so of using the range finder I can state the following:

1) It is nice to have on the range because most yardage markers on ranges, at least in my 'hood, are "off"

2) If you are playing on your own, using it will definitely slow you down. Unless, you are a total yardage nut who needs it on every shot to the exact distance, in which case you are probably delusional.

3) If you are in the rough, or BFE, it is helpful and faster to use than a sprinkler head 50 yards away

4) If a course is nose to butt, then it does not matter for speed of play whether people use them or not. If the course is wide open and you are in a foursome with every player using one, it will slow you down or speed you up depending on the playing style of each player.
ie) If someone shoots yardage and hits the ball, they will play a lot faster than someone who paces of yardage, takes eight practice swings and focuses the chi for 30 seconds

5) In tournaments, they are very helpful in shotting yardage to hazards, pin, etc. In this environment, they will certainly speed up play.

6) I cannot get myself to use it on every shot even if I try. If I can see the 150, get a feel for where the flag is on the green, that is generally enough. If I am waiting on a couple of other people to hit - then I might laser the flag just to know for sure.

After several rounds of playing with people who do not have these devices, it is interesting to find that none of them would consider purchasing one. They all thought it was a waste of money. Handicaps of this small sample groups ranged from 2 to 18, and a couple of the guys play the occassional tournament. I do know one guy, however, who swears by his - he is a very quick player and the laser does not slow him down.

In terms of confidence over a shot, I think that these devices can be quite helpful. 90% of the game is in the mind, and distance is a key variable that goes into any shot, so if you can commit to hitting your eight iron 152, instead of guessing that you need to hit it somewhere around 145 to 150, your scoring may improve.

What I fear is that people will begin to live their golfing lives through the peep hole of a range finder instead of through the panoramic view we get from our natural vision. Golf, for 99% of the population, is not hit it exactly X on a drive and exactly Y on the approach. The deceptive visual cues that architects create are invisible through the lens of a range finder and must decrease the appreciation a golfer can have for any great course.

The one playing format where a range finder will certanly be less helpful is on a links course where you have to feel your way around. If the pin is 174 and the wind is blowing 30 mph, who cares. You have to feel that shot, how you will flight the ball, and what club to hit. General distance info may be helpful, but it can also confuse. Often on a links it is better to trust your instinct and let your sub-conscious execute the shot.

Since most courses in NA are target golf - it is only a matter of time before every junior on the course has one. Unfortunately.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Eric

If someone joined us in a four ball and ‘pulled out his electronic aid’ he would have been asked not to use it. If he refused or complained then he would have been told to find another group. Simple, he is not playing the same game as the rest of us, he is in his own mind happily seeking an advantage over those he would have been playing with. Had we been playing poker, I believe he would have been accused of cheating or at the very least of trying to get one over the rest of us. That is not fair or reasonable conduct, so we would ask him to seek others of a similar persuasion.

Tom - as for the genie back in the bottle, that I believe is possible, but it would take guts and balls to accept that they should never have been allowed in the first place. That is not accepted by our Governing Bodies, showing how well they are looking after the Great game of golf.

It can be done, it’s happened with smoking in public, but you have to care and fight to get things changed particularly if you feel that they are wrong. The fight is not over, it’s not even started. If those golfers on GCA.com who dislike electronic aids refused to play with golfers that use them, then that would send out a real message.

People fight because they believe in certain things. Many don’t want to commit for various reasons, yet how do you protect your beliefs, ideas and future without standing up to what you believe is right. I was picked upon in my boarding school by the younger brother (who was a year older than I was) of the head boy. He knocked me down but I never stayed down, I kept getting up. This lasted for two terms until I was strong enough to take him on. He was the one that did not try to get up. In the end, you have to fight for your beliefs or risk loosing them, that is if you are lucky and get a choice.

Yardage is an advantage in the minds of those that use them.

Melvyn   

[Tom Huckaby]

Melvyn:

Please do heed the words of Lou Duran regarding the impractical nature of the change, and the expense.  Those are powerful motivators against making this change, something anti-smoking advocates did not have to deal with.

I also remain at a loss at your take that these electronic things ought to be utterly cryit downe, but using distance as available on the course is OK.  Do you mean to suggest that?  Because that is a loss of logic to me.  I just can't see how getting information already available in a quicker form is a bad thing.  But perhaps you do mean to eliminate all distance information?  Because yes, if one does avail himself of that where others do not or cannot, I agree, that is a form of cheating.

Now if you mean to say eliminate ALL distance information, then as stated many times, I am with you.

And I do agree with you that that SHOULD be done.  Again, where we part is that you think it CAN be done.  I see zero possibility.  And quite selfishly, my life is too short to start refusing to play with people, or playing angry, or fighting unwinnable crusades.

But again I admire you who have greater conviction.  Just do try to understand what you'd be up against in this country... I don't think you quite get that.

TH

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tpm

I would like to see all distance markers and electronic yardage aids removed - I just mentioned the Electronic as that was the subject of the post, yet it would be a start to ban the electronice aids as the first stage, although I feel all should be banned at the same time.

Not changed my position in anyway, so good to see you are still with US

Melvyn

[JohnV]

I got my battery replaced just in time for a round with Mr Huckaby at Spyglass this week.  I hope he will confirm that neither I nor Steve P slowed him down using our range finders.

As for the purity of the game.  I fail to see how saying, "It is 150 yards, I'll hit a 7-iron" differs from "I think I'll hit a 7-iron"  After all, the key to the game is figuring out what club to hit. There are many ways to determine that.  Just knowing the yardage is one step in the process for many players, for others it isn't.  Those of us who might want to know the distance, still figure in things like elevation, wind direction, firmness of the green, how we're swinging that day etc.  

Why those who don't need to figure out the yardage feel superior to the rest of us who like to have the information as part of the process of determining to play a shot is what I don't understand.

A range finder is a tool like many others, not an evil weapon that gives someone an advantage.  The reason the USGA local rule prohibits range finders which measure things like elevation or wind direction is because those things are not traditionally measured for the player in advance.  They recognize there is no real difference betwen a range finder, a yardage book, a sprinkler head with yardage on it, a caddie who made his own book of the course or even the knowledge in the head of the player regarding the distance from a specific object to the green.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tpm

I would like to see all distance markers and electronic yardage aids removed - I just mentioned the Electronic as that was the subject of the post, yet it would be a start to ban the electronice aids as the first stage, although I feel all should be banned at the same time.

Not changed my position in anyway, so good to see you are still with US

Melvyn

Well, I am with you in spirit.. I am not at all with you in practicality or effect.  The next time I refuse to play with anyone will be the first.  And I am such a slave to use of distance while playing, I have a hard time giving it up myself as I'd get killed competitively.  So if that allows me to still be with you, then OK, with you I am.

 

John - man  that round was a perfect example of how these things speed play.... Spyglass is one of those courses that is marked decently, but not all that clearly.  For us slaves to distance that device was a god-send.  I was asking Pieracci to shoot mine all day.

[Brent Hutto]

The reason the USGA local rule prohibits range finders which measure things like elevation or wind direction is because those things are not traditionally measured for the player in advance.  They recognize there is no real difference betwen a range finder, a yardage book, a sprinkler head with yardage on it, a caddie who made his own book of the course or even the knowledge in the head of the player regarding the distance from a specific object to the green.

Thank you for clearly stating this, John.

To the extent that it is an electronic version of the generally-available information about the course it would not be logically consistent to disallow the rangefinder while allowing yardage book, caddies, pin sheets, etc.

[Lou_Duran]

There is plenty of research that shows we don't see or perceive things very accurately.

Lou

Did ever think that is one reason why some shots are designed to be deceptive?

Ciao

As they say, "No shit Sherlock".  And it is the aim of the smart golfer to overcome the deceptions.  As it is also said about blind shots, they should only be blind but once.  I suppose I could buy a course guide or use the scorecard to jot down details that aren't so obvious, or just one gps unit with near limitless downloads of courses.  Or I could do as some of you seem to suggest, be pleasantly surprised by what the architect wants to throw at me, being that I am such an accomplished golfer (not).


Melvyn,

As a holder of strong opinions myself, and hardly a shrinking violet, if every time I excluded someone from my group because they have other preferences, I fear that I would be limiting myself to far fewer positive experiences (than any temporary annoyance I might be able to avoid).  For me at least, life is too short to force my view of golf on others.  If a chap feels more comfortable shooting a distance, being that I would rather he enjoy himself as opposed to not, all the more power to him.  That it might help that person overcome a disadvantage vis-a-vis my greater level of experience on the course, well, that just makes it more sporting anyways, a good thing, I think.

BTW, are you aware of the research which suggests that kids who have been bullied have a greater tendency to be bully themselves?  Why you can't seem to understand or accept why someone else may enjoy golf riding a cart or shooting a distance is discouraging.  While you have every right to your opinion and to associate with whom you wish, having a pedigree rich in the game does not make you right.  
 

[Jason Topp]

I got a laser as a gift from my wife a few weeks ago and must admit I enjoy it much more than I expected.    

For full shots it does not change the game much, if at all.  Even with a specific number, feel and recognition of all of the variables (slope, wind, temperature, ground firmness, how solidly I am hitting the ball, whether I am loose, et.) is far more important than the specific distance.  

For partial shots, however, it makes a huge difference for me.  Apparently I am not very good at judging the distance of partial wedge shots.  With a laser, I have a much clearer idea regarding what shot I need to hit.

I also agree with posts implying that the type of golf course influences this issue.  If one is constantly hitting aerial shots to raised greens surrounded with water or deep bunkers or other hazards (as many US courses require) being able to hit the ball the correct distance is difficult enough.  Guessing at the correct distance makes the game silly.

As to pace of play, I think that is a non issue in either direction.  One could figure it out by some sort of study but it takes about the same time to shoot a distance as it takes to put on a headcover.  People who are slow at figuring out their shot will be slow regardless of what tools they use.

The game might be better withot rangefinders but distance inrormation is everywhere.  If it were not, you could now look it up and measure it yourself on Google Earth.  I don't think that laser rangefinders change the fundamental nature of the game - get the ball in the hole before your opponent.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave:

No one ever stated these were a fix for slow play.  The statement that they speed up play is a reaction to those who said they slow the game down.  That is just plain not true.  I do also quite firmly believe that those who buy and use them are slaves to distance, who would try anything to get such distance without them.  When they have them, they do go faster.  That's just plain logic to me.  Those who actually use them do go faster.  No one ever said put them in the hands of everyone and the game goes faster.  What many have maintained is what I just stated - how it works out in reality.  It's odd to me you can't (or don't want to) see this.   It's not a red herring at all.

In terms of this being a matter of principal and integrity of the game, until all distance information is eliminated, I fail to see how getting it in a quicker and easier form is against this, whereas yardage books, caddies, sprinkler heads, etc, are OK.  That just makes zero logical sense to me.  As JV said,

A range finder is a tool like many others, not an evil weapon that gives someone an advantage.  The reason the USGA local rule prohibits range finders which measure things like elevation or wind direction is because those things are not traditionally measured for the player in advance.  They recognize there is no real difference betwen a range finder, a yardage book, a sprinkler head with yardage on it, a caddie who made his own book of the course or even the knowledge in the head of the player regarding the distance from a specific object to the green.

That makes sense to me.  I see no principals nor integrity being violated by their use.  So do you mean to say you want all distance info eliminated?  If so, great.  If not, then logic is not on your side.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

As to pace of play, I think that is a non issue in either direction.  

You're darn right, Jason.  Speed of play is a total red herring.  Always has been.  This is a matter of principal and the integrity of the game.  The game is slow for reasons other than yardage determination.  

Trying to fix slow play with a rangefinder is like trying to cure insomnia by sucking down a fifth of gin every night so you pass out.  
 

Shiv,

I couldn't agree more.  While I'm no Luddite, and don't mind people using them, my only beef is that they are being marketed as "speed up play" devices when the reality is they help so few actually speed up (ie distance whores) that speeding up play on the aggregate is nil.

[RSLivingston_III]

One of the problems is it eliminates the penalty for mis-hiting the ball. Now you can be in another fairway and still know the exact distance to the inch to the pin instead of being penalized for your incompetence.