[Tom Huckaby]

Melyvn - love the nickname - I figure damn near all here in America would equate me to WILT if it were used... and that's a good thing.

And I am in no camp other than that of LOGIC.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

I don't keep aggregate 18-hole score anymore, either.  I haven't for almost 10 years now.  

How do you measure yourself against other golfers?

Actually, this back and forth between Judge Smails and Ty Webb crystallizes everything that is wrong with the game (in the case of Smails) and right about the game (in Ty's case).

Smails takes it as a given that one must measure oneself against other golfers.  A given.  A presumption implicit in his view of the game.  

I vehemently disagree.  One does not need to measure oneself against other golfers.  If measurement is needed at all (and I am not sure it is), the simple answer is that one measures oneself against oneself.  How did you play today relative to your abilities?  Did you overcome the challenges presented by the golf course, or did they overcome you?  THAT is what matters.  

  

Shivas:  no offense, but....

WELL DUH!

What the hell do you think Webb meant by his words?

 

[Carl Nichols]

Dave:
I agree with a lot of what you say here, but is it fair to assume that you don't have a handicap?  Does that prevent you from playing in even casual events like member-guests?  What about if you want to play a match-play match against someone you've never played with -- how do you figure out the strokes?  Just estimate them?

[Tom Huckaby]

Something other than what I said.

Really?
Well you are the expert on said movie.
But man it sure seems to me he said in two words (meant ironically if not sarcastically) what took you several well-written paragraphs.

In any case I agree with you.  And Webb.
 

[PCCraig]

Pat

You just have no idea, common sense seems to evade you and you jump to conclusions with not an ounce of understand or proof.

You are what I consider…… well lets just leave it because you do not know me, understand me or my life.

The picture you see was at Tain when I attend to help launch the Old Tom Open and some of Tain’s new facilities.  The golf club in the photo was not mine but loaned to perform the first putt.

Melvyn - If you are going to come on this website and live in an absolute black and white world and start your crusaide for "pure" golf vs. the reast of the golfing world, then you better not live in the grey. The putter is an aid, and regardless if it was just for one putt, you should ask yourself if the great golfers of the Golden Age of Golf would of used a two-ball alignment adjusting soft insert putter , which is quite possibly the most untraditional of all putters on the market. If you were so pure, perhaps you would of switched with the other golfer?

Let me ask you something...did you line up your putt with a laser finder?  

Yet unlike you, I am happy to try to help others, to put out a hand of friendship first, to try to see the good in others, try to see the funny side of things.

I too try to help others and have spent countless hours as a youth myself volunteering with a local orphanage teaching children to play golf as well as caddy. But somehow I don't like helping others? Or is this another general-stupid ass comment that you make to others to try to prove your points?

It makes no matter to me if my friends or acquaintances are the son or grandson of The Queen, Prime Minister, President, a sporting or business legend. 

Perhaps not, but you sure like to tell anyone who will listen that you great great great uncles 2nd cousin's granfather was Old Tom Morris. Next time you walk into a bar, see if anyone cares about what you have to say when you don't mention that first.

[Richard Choi]

Richard
I have not played in the USA, have you played in GB&I, seems you have by your comment “I doubt it”.  If I am a Purest then you must be a Heretic. Not using distance/yardage aids and walking means no distraction when playing golf allowing one time to select and concentrate on the pending shot. Are you seriously telling me that using an aid is quicker?

Melvyn, I did qualify my statement to include "at least in tournament conditions". I've seen plenty of European Tour events on TV. The players and caddies over there painfully walk off EVERY yardage on EVERY shot just like the PGA Tour players do here. My guess is that the same thing happens with most amateur tournaments of any note in GB&I. You can correct me if my assumption is wrong.

In those cases, I see no reason why employing lasers and GPS would not make the rounds go faster.

If you are already playing under 4 hour rounds, having those devices probably would not make it go much faster, but I doubt that it would slow it down either.

[PCCraig]

So if you can use directional devices, what makes distance devices any different? Either way in your world they should both be considered cheating.

That's because they both are... 

Shivas-

Would you completely refuse a laser gun for yardages then line up a putt with a cheater line? Of course not.



So the question for Melvyn is to why he can pass judgment on all who use yardages when they play yet use an artificial modern two ball putter for alignment.

[PCCraig]

Pat, it looks to me like that was some sort of ceremonial shot.  I agree in concept, but it's not hypocrisy to hit a ceremonial shot with that goofy contraption.  Hell, just like it's not hypocrisy to bowl with bumpers with your kids, just as long as you know that's not really bowling, it's not even hypocrisy to use the cheater line and rangefinders, just as long as you know you're not really playing golf...

Sure it was a ceremonial shot. But how do we know that he didn't just take it out of his trunk on the way to the putting green?

If I were a long time and serious bowler who spends considerable time blogging as to why bumpers are horrible for the game of golf I highly doubt I would use bumpers even when bowling with kids.

So if his putt wasn't really a putt, is that really a putting green or a real ceremony? It would seem to me that a proper golf ceremony would include proper equipment.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

Boy, are you screwed up and full of hate and jealousy.

There may be markers on a course, there may be a line on a club but that does not mean we use them or bother with them. As for the so-called putt, it was a ceremonial putt and you will have to take my word for it I did not notice any line, it was a tap for the Ceremony.

You really cannot stand me having an opinion, you are looking for any little way to try to score points or is it that I have many family contacts with golf and you do not.

Whatever, believe me or not, I just do not care. I have tried to make peace, but you seem so set against it.

Melvyn

[Ian_L]

Melvyn, I have a sincere question for you (not pointless accusations).  If someone here in the USA has more fun playing golf with a range finder, should he not use it?  Why not?

For Tom H, I have a compromise proposition on the yardage issue.  What if all markings were removed from the course, but range finders could be borrowed from the pro shop for a nominal fee? Or even free with the money saved by not installing distance info (on new courses)?  Of course, this would still require more people to be in favor of no distance info, but it could give both parties what they want.  I agree with you Tom that I often try to play without yardage info, but those black-and-white posts in the middle of the fairways make it impossible.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ian:

I think if we're gonna do this we have to go whole-hog, cold-turkey, add your own food animal-related phrase.
 

Your suggestion is a fine compromise, however.

I would say this, however: rules of golf change such that local rule implementable for tournament play is that range finders are NOT allowed.  Then the serious golfers don't use them.

TH

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ian

The golfer is free to use any distance aids.  I have no problem with that, although I would like to see them gone from a golf course, including markers books etc.

My belief is that a golfer does not need any distance aid to play golf, by doing so he takes another step away from playing by his own ability and gets caught up relying on them – perhaps using the excuse they are faster and save time.

Many months ago one or two who tend to always use one – I think it was a Range Finder, went away and played a course that did not allow distance aids and reported that it did impact their game believing that it took longer to get their eye into it. My opinion on that is that the eye never changed, it always did what was asked and did it well, but the brain starved of that reassurance from a device marker, book etc transmitted that through to the arms. Result a poor shot and higher score, albeit by not much.

Ian – Golfers do not need them and coming off using them must be like giving up smoking, drinking or any thing that we have come to rely upon.  I’m anti most distance info for that reason. Scorecards, Tee marker fine keep them
For those who like to know overall distance from Tee to pin.

Melvyn 

[Tom Huckaby]

Melvyn, your stance is as admirable as it is crystal clear.

But let's think a little out of the box, shall we.

For sake of argument, let's say distance markings are NOT removed.  Let's say the game here in the USA continues as is, with distance information readily available, nay annoyingly over-present, on the vast majority of courses.

What would be your advice in this situation?  How should the game best be played under these conditions?

I am genuinely curious as to your take about this.

TH

[Rob Rigg]

I followed a semi-final round at the Oregon Am this w/e at Bandon Dunes.

Both of the caddies had range finders and the pace of play was quite brisk for a tournament. No searching for sprinklers, pacing, etc. Just point shoot, club and hit.

I have always been an advocate for the removal of distance information. While playing a links course especially, it is more about feel than anything else. 165 yards into a 30+ mph wind was a full three wood for me on PD #13 (that somehow ended up pin high on the green) - the distance info was irrelevant, it was a mental calculation of what shot was required.

However, if people are going to use yardage (as 99% of the players in the US probably do) - then having a Leupold/Bushnell or GPS device will reduce the time spent wandering the fairways looking for sprinkler heads, and will improve distance information. The lasers are superior in my opinion because you get exact yardage - and you can also "shoot" hazards, etc. as necessary.

To each his own - use yardage or do not - but if you are going to, then a device will make your game faster and your yardage estimates more precise.

No doubt that the golfing experience is heightened to its maximum when the golfer walks and plays only with his mind (meaning no yardage) - I am not debating you there Melvyn, but not a lot of people are playing like that these days.

[Tom Huckaby]

Rob - you just paraphrased pretty darn exactly what has been my position all along, the many times this has been debated.  It pleases me to read at least one other who sees this logically.  Welcome to the dark side, however... to Melvyn I am Neville Chamberlain (the great appeaser).. I leave it to him to come up with an apt comparison for you.

 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

So what’s new? It must be down to each golfer to decide in that situation.

I would do as I have done in the past ignore the markers or distance information. It will be easier for me as I just don’t use them.
Because I do not or have never used them, distance say 160 yards means nothing, I can’t equate it to a distance. What I do understand, well I hope so by now is what club to use subject to conditions and that I can achieve that distance by using that particular club.  Same with a putter, I was taught to square face the putter to the target.

As for other golfers, it’s down to them as distance aids are legal, but that makes the golfer reliant on them, which I believe is a bad thing for the golfer and for golf.  Hence, I have never fully got my head around them in the first place. For me its simple, does it help my game by having to double address distance, first knowing the distance in yards feet etc via markers, books or electronic means, then go through the process again this time using eye brains and body, which is the real or actual powerhouse that generates the shot. The first set of information is more or less ineffective because it has been superseded by the final address, look and swing. Nevertheless, we do love to overcomplicate the modern game of golf with facts and information more for the benefit of the audience and TV reporters – the Dudley Moore & Peter Cook combination (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fY-M41FGzI  )
spring to mind for some reason.

Hope that answers your question Tom

Melvyn

[Tom Huckaby]

Melvyn:

That somewhat answers it, but not really.

I didn't really want an answer as to what YOU would do - I could have written that for you.  You never have played using distance information, so perhaps you could ignore it here.

And again, the question is not what is the best way to play in a perfect golf world - again, I am with you, we should use our eyes and our judgment.

The question I ask what would you advocate as the BEST way to play here under the conditions I stated (use of distance info all of one's golf life, courses littered with it)?  And you seem to imply that US golfers - having played their whole lives using distance information and having it omni-present on their courses - should also find some way to completely change and ignore the information.  You don't really say that, however - do I have that correct?

If I do have that correct, well... I will report to you that I have tried (as have others in this thread).  It is exceedingly difficult to do.  Then of course it also becomes hurtful to one's chances in any sort of competition, also.

Thus I do not consider that a realistic option.

[Kalen Braley]

Its been said before and I'll say it again seeing how this topic won't seem to die. 

I will never understand for the life of me why players cannot observe yardage markers as they approach thier ball.  Is it really that difficult to pay attention to the 200 and 150 markers as your striding (or riding in Melyvns case.  ) up the fairway?  You get to your ball, you eye ball the marker, do a quick calculation/adjustment for your ball, and boom you have your yardage. It takes no more than 5-10 seconds tops.  And don't give me this "I need it down to a yard business"....within 5-7 yards is good enough for 99% of folks on GCA.com.

Now with all that being said..Am I a luddite?  Far from it, I love all the neat inventions of the game, but I will beleive to the grave that using distance aids on the course makes zero to almost no difference for pace of play.  I've never seen anyone use it much quicker than 5 seconds as compared to the aforementioned slightly attentive golfer.

So if your going to argue that its neat....thats fine.
If your going to argue it geeks you out....thats fine.
If your going to argue toys are too much fun on the course....thats fine.
If your going to say chicks dig guys who use em....thats fine.

But the real time wasters on the course are pre-shot routines, standing around, not figuring out which club you're going to play while someone esle is hitting, looking 10 minutes for lost balls, etc, etc.  Please, please enough of this time saver crappola because its a load of cow dung as just about every course in America is marked with easily discernable yardage markers.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

It pains me you so badly whiffed on this.  But whiff you did.

No one ever said these saved in general, nor saved time for everyone, nor is searching for distance information among the worst time wasters.  No one also ever said the game could not be played quickly without distance aids.

The point that these things save time comes down to this:

a) those who use them in the first place are those who MUST have exact distance info;
b) for them, it's far quicker and easier to shoot and move on than anything you said.  They won't simply look as they pass by.  They must have exact info.  And for them, using a mechanical device is quicker.

SO... they save time for the time-wasters who must have exact distances.  That's a lot of golfers.

No one ever said it quickens the game for the sane golfers you suggest.  Of course the game can be played as you state.  But that's not at all what we're talking about here.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I whiffed?  Did you even bother to look at the title of this thread?   

You did raise an interesting point though with "a) those who use them in the first place are those who MUST have exact distance info;".

This is really my point as who exactly "must" have these exact distances?  Of all the people I've played with I can resoundingly tell you there is no one even remotely close who "had to have" the exact yardages...its not even close.  I play with a guy who uses that thing on every shot, even his chips thats are 5 yards off the green...its beyond silly.  He's always been a slow player and that thing has done nothing to speed up his game.

When everyone can honestly assess if they really "must" need that exact yardage, then these products will likely go extinct because the number of players who are good enough to need them represent such a teeny % of players.  Trust me, these companies are relying on people to advocate them as time savers because if they couldn't, they'd be out of business....but they are still cool little gadgets, I'll give em that! 

So I take your whiff and send it back in your general direction!!   

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry man, a whiff it was.

These do save time - exactly how I stated.  You are bringing up things that are pretty irrelevant to the question at hand.  I think you are right about these things... of course no one SHOULD need exact yardage... but the fact is, a great many golfers think they do need such, and play accordingly.  So calling them wrong is meaningless... correct, but meaningless.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Sorry man, a whiff it was.

These do save time - exactly how I stated.  You are bringing up things that are pretty irrelevant to the question at hand.  I think you are right about these things... of course no one SHOULD need exact yardage... but the fact is, a great many golfers think they do need such, and play accordingly.  So calling them wrong is meaningless... correct, but meaningless.

TH

Tom,

I never called them wrong or meaningless...either the player or the rangefinders.

I only said I'm not buying the poo-poo platter that these are time-savers!!! 

[Tom Huckaby]

Well if you don't buy it under the conditions I stated, then you can just be wrong.  It's pretty simple logic.  They do serve the effect of saving time for those who use them.  Thankfully very few do use them, as these users tend to be the slowest golfers to begin with.  They make these slow golfers go faster.  That's it.

[Richard Choi]

I am with Kalen, given a choice, all I want are 100 yard and 150 yard poles in the middle of the fairway. I can figure out where I am based on those poles alone, I don't need anything else. Just by looking at them (and not stepping out), you can roughly figure out where you are, and that should be good enough for 95% of the players out there. And since those poles are visible from anywhere (unlike sprinkler heads and ground markers), you don't waste any time looking for them.

They were in vogue maybe 10 years ago, but I don't see them on new courses anymore. That is too bad.

But if I cannot have the yardage poles, my second choice would be laser or GPS since then again, I don't have to go around looking for yardage. I really don't need them to be accurate to a yard (+/- 10 yards would be fine), but since that is what the technology allows, so really doesn't matter.

[Tom Huckaby]

I am with Kalen, given a choice, all I want are 100 yard and 150 yard poles in the middle of the fairway. I can figure out where I am based on those poles alone, I don't need anything else. Just by looking at them (and not stepping out), you can roughly figure out where you are, and that should be good enough for 95% of the players out there. And since those poles are visible from anywhere (unlike sprinkler heads and ground markers), you don't waste any time looking for them.

They were in vogue maybe 10 years ago, but I don't see them on new courses anymore. That is too bad.

But if I cannot have the yardage poles, my second choice would be laser or GPS since then again, I don't have to go around looking for yardage. I really don't need them to be accurate to a yard (+/- 10 yards would be fine), but since that is what the technology allows, so really doesn't matter.

Just to clarify, I am with this also, and it would be great if all played this way.

But very very very many do not.  Need for exact yardage is very common.  And for those who need such, it's pretty simple logic to see that busnhell makes such obtainable much faster.  I know you know this, Richard.  But Kalen seems to deny it.

TH

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