(more?) proof that distance-finders save time

[Tom Huckaby]

Yes, I want all distance info eliminated.  No 100, 150 or 200.  Nothing on sprinklers.  No yardage books.  No pin sheets.  No distance on the scorecard.  And no advice from caddies or partners.

You and your skills and that's it.

Cool - that's what I thought.  I'd love that also, as I've said.  And you know, I dug your suggestion that we make this a rule - I forget the exact mechanics of how you laid that out, but I thought it was great.

I just don't see a snowball's chance in hell of this taking place in our lifetimes.  Do you?


Kalen - I sure haven't seen anyone market these as "speed of play" devices.  I must not be paying attention.  If they do, well... great!  Because as I've said, it sure seems to me that those who shell out the bucks to have them will indeed go faster, in the huge majority of instances.  So to me, speeding up play is far from an aggregate nil... it's a very clear aggregate gain.  Oh it's not a large gain, as not many people do use these.. but any gain is great by me.  


Ralph - sorry, I don't agree with that either.  One can still find his distance from anywhere, using existing markings and a little math.  These things do make it quite easier, for sure.. but I still see that as a net positive... because those who have to have it exact would otherwise take forever to figure it out.

TH

[RSLivingston_III]

Yes, I want all distance info eliminated.  No 100, 150 or 200.  Nothing on sprinklers.  No yardage books.  No pin sheets.  No distance on the scorecard.  And no advice from caddies or partners.

You and your skills and that's it.

Cool - that's what I thought.  I'd love that also, as I've said.  And you know, I dug your suggestion that we make this a rule - I forget the exact mechanics of how you laid that out, but I thought it was great.

I just don't see a snowball's chance in hell of this taking place in our lifetimes.  Do you?


Kalen - I sure haven't seen anyone market these as "speed of play" devices.  I must not be paying attention.  If they do, well... great!  Because as I've said, it sure seems to me that those who shell out the bucks to have them will indeed go faster, in the huge majority of instances.  So to me, speeding up play is far from an aggregate nil... it's a very clear aggregate gain.  Oh it's not a large gain, as not many people do use these.. but any gain is great by me.  


Ralph - sorry, I don't agree with that either.  One can still find his distance from anywhere, using existing markings and a little math.  These things do make it quite easier, for sure.. but I still see that as a net positive... because those who have to have it exact would otherwise take forever to figure it out.

TH

A little math? I have seen on many an occasion where you'd be lucky to figure it out within 10 yards.

[Brent Hutto]

One of the problems is it eliminates the penalty for mis-hiting the ball. Now you can be in another fairway and still know the exact distance to the inch to the pin instead of being penalized for your incompetence.

No, Ralph. You are penalized by being in the other fairway and having to come up with a shot over or through whatever's between you and the green and at an awkward angle. You just aren't being additionally penalized by having to pace off your distance to some known point. And believe me, if I have a scorecard in my hand in a stroke-play situation I'm going to one way or another figure out how far I need to hit the ball to get over that bunker between me and the green.

Some of these comments basically boil down to

1) Other people don't play the game like me
2) If we could take away [fill-in-the-blank] then everyone would have to play the game like me

with the blank filled in open-endedly. Take away rangefinders. If they use sprinkler heads instead take those away. If they pace off distance make that illegal too. What's next, tell everyone to wear blindfolds?

[Ronald Montesano]

Seven pages of a thread are way too many to comb, so forgive please if this was touched previously.  I have a uPro GPS that is absolutely accurate to date.  The machine is so good that Callaway purchased it from the company, rather than R & D their own.  I have used it on private and public, modern and classic courses, with incredible accuracy.  What I like most is being able to dial up the distance to/over the hazard, and to the specific part of the green where the flag is located.  I didn't use it on the closing stretch at Orchards on Monday, which may explain my 7-5-5 (triple, double, single) finish.

[RSLivingston_III]

I got my battery replaced just in time for a round with Mr Huckaby at Spyglass this week.  I hope he will confirm that neither I nor Steve P slowed him down using our range finders.

As for the purity of the game.  I fail to see how saying, "It is 150 yards, I'll hit a 7-iron" differs from "I think I'll hit a 7-iron"  After all, the key to the game is figuring out what club to hit. There are many ways to determine that.  Just knowing the yardage is one step in the process for many players, for others it isn't.  Those of us who might want to know the distance, still figure in things like elevation, wind direction, firmness of the green, how we're swinging that day etc.  

Why those who don't need to figure out the yardage feel superior to the rest of us who like to have the information as part of the process of determining to play a shot is what I don't understand.

A range finder is a tool like many others, not an evil weapon that gives someone an advantage.  The reason the USGA local rule prohibits range finders which measure things like elevation or wind direction is because those things are not traditionally measured for the player in advance.  They recognize there is no real difference betwen a range finder, a yardage book, a sprinkler head with yardage on it, a caddie who made his own book of the course or even the knowledge in the head of the player regarding the distance from a specific object to the green.

Of the 500+ years golf has been played, how many have had the tradition of gathering yardage info?

[Tom Huckaby]

Ralph - but that's just it - for most people "within 10 yards" is good enough.  For those for whom that is NOT good enough, I am quite happy they can shoot it and get it done with rather than spend inordinate time figuring out calculations using Pythagorean Theorem or the like to get it more exact.  As for the tradition of using yardage info, you tell me.. I thought it was a very modern invention.  But sadly, it's been this way most of the golf lives of most people living and playing, no?  So it indeed will be tough to get the genie back in the bottle, as sad as that might be.

Dave - I quite agree with you about the marketing.  But of course the same can be said about ANYTHING in golf.  Speed of play in this case is indeed an after the fact rationalization.. it just happens to also be correct.

David C. - your experience quite differs from mine.  I have yet to see a hack use a Bushnell.  The few guys I have seen use them outside of truly competitive players have been darn quick about them also.  I guess I live in a different world.  I kinda like mine.  

[RSLivingston_III]

Seven pages of a thread are way too many to comb, so forgive please if this was touched previously.  I have a uPro GPS that is absolutely accurate to date.  The machine is so good that Callaway purchased it from the company, rather than R & D their own.  I have used it on private and public, modern and classic courses, with incredible accuracy.  What I like most is being able to dial up the distance to/over the hazard, and to the specific part of the green where the flag is located.  I didn't use it on the closing stretch at Orchards on Monday, which may explain my 7-5-5 (triple, double, single) finish.

How many doubles and triples did you have before those three holes?

[RSLivingston_III]

Seven pages of a thread are way too many to comb, so forgive please if this was touched previously.  I have a uPro GPS that is absolutely accurate to date.  The machine is so good that Callaway purchased it from the company, rather than R & D their own.  I have used it on private and public, modern and classic courses, with incredible accuracy.  What I like most is being able to dial up the distance to/over the hazard, and to the specific part of the green where the flag is located.  I didn't use it on the closing stretch at Orchards on Monday, which may explain my 7-5-5 (triple, double, single) finish.

How many doubles and triples did you have before those three holes?

So Tom, you think it is fair for someone to get perfect distance info to the inch after shucking the ball out into the hinterlands?

[JohnV]

What's next, tell everyone to wear blindfolds?

No, just tell 'em to figure out the distance to their target and the line to their target for themselves and on their own, using only their own devices, not Toshiba's, Sony's, Samsung's, Bushnell's or Sharpie's.

So, if they want to walk 150 yards to the green and back, you're ok with that?

[Brent Hutto]

Of the 500+ years golf has been played, how many have had the tradition of gathering yardage info?

Of the 15+ years since I first set foot on a golf course, all of them. I've seen accounts from at least 75 years ago of matches between great players in which the players were aware of distances. So I surmise that knowing how far you want to hit the ball goes back closer to a century.

If you go back more than a few decades it matters not at all to me how they played the game. I don't use goose feathers in leather sacks or wooden-shafted club and I don't play on an uncultivated stretch of wasteland either.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ralph, I was +1 for the day, from the tips.  I pace off my putts, as I need to know how many feet my putt is.  I am used to using 150-yard bushes, fairway disks and colored stakes.  The uPro is beyond beneficial when it comes to helping me.

[Tom Huckaby]

Seven pages of a thread are way too many to comb, so forgive please if this was touched previously.  I have a uPro GPS that is absolutely accurate to date.  The machine is so good that Callaway purchased it from the company, rather than R & D their own.  I have used it on private and public, modern and classic courses, with incredible accuracy.  What I like most is being able to dial up the distance to/over the hazard, and to the specific part of the green where the flag is located.  I didn't use it on the closing stretch at Orchards on Monday, which may explain my 7-5-5 (triple, double, single) finish.

How many doubles and triples did you have before those three holes?

So Tom, you think it is fair for someone to get perfect distance info to the inch after shucking the ball out into the hinterlands?

I think those who have to have it are gonna get it no matter what method they choose.  If there's a way for them to get it faster, I remain all for it.



David - skycaddies are indeed used by a bit more hacks, for now.  They are a nice toy with which to play with.  But I also feel confident that over time, their use will go down as these techno-geeks see they can live without them.  It really went that way for Bushnells and I think it will also for GPS devices.

That is, if it's on a cart anyway, why do I need my own?

TH

[Brent Hutto]

There used to be this dumbass who played in the 9:30 weekend game at my club. He was all the time lecturing anyone he got teamed up with on the futility of...well, just about everything. Distances? You're not that good. Looking at a putt from behind the hole? You're not that good. Taking a practice swing before hitting a chip shot? You're wasting time, you're going to flub it anyway. All the frickin' time with the negativity.

We were playing our 15th hole of the round one Saturday. I had one of those 40-foot putts across a mound in the green where you have to aim sideways, run it through the fringe and there's no way it's going to stop until it either goes in or rolls 20 feet past the hole. As I'm stepping up to the ball he's telling me "Don't worry about your line, just hit it real easy, let it get below the hole and try not to 4-putt". Well, dear reader, I'm here to tell you I made that putt. Birdie for our team. Hoorah!

The very next hole. The next stinking hole! I'm chipping from short of an elevated green and can't see the green surface. So I step forward 10 paces and take a look at my line. He says "Go ahead and hit it, you're not going to get it close from down there anyway, what are you looking at, anything on the green is fine". He didn't have much use for rangefinders either.

[Ronald Montesano]

We were at Leatherstocking and my old, anti-tech coot buddy asked me for a yardage.  I gave it to him and he chunked his approach twenty yards short of the green.  He looked at me and our third and sincerely said "so much for technology."  My pal and I double over in laughter and said that no technology helps a bad shot.

For whatever reason, I am a numbers guy.  I feel confident knowing the numbers.  At the same time, I am painfully aware of keeping pace and if I can't consult the GPS without holding up play, I won't.

As Tom H. suggested, if they can play faster with it, let them.  For Ralph, why should you not know how far you are, be it in the boonies or in the fairway?

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm confused, Brent.  What was the point of that story?  Sounds like the kind of guy I'd aim for and hit.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm confused, Brent.  What was the point of that story?  Sounds like the kind of guy I'd aim for and hit.

He was the kind of guy who thought rangefinders and GPS's and yardage book and sprinkler heads just slowed the game down. And he would explain that theory in some length, given the opportunity. Something about this thread was making me have a flashback. He's not a member at our club any more and if I'm not mistaken he quit playing golf.

[Tom Huckaby]

But DSchmidt, yes, that is all true....

But it's also true that distance information is everywhere on our courses.  So pining away for a more pure game without it seems to make little sense to me.  It's not going to happen.  And since it is not, isn't it more practical to think about where do we go from here?  How do we deal with it?

I know Melvyn wants to fight the good fight, believes in some way he can win.

But do YOU really believe that?  I can understand Melvyn's idealism, as he has never played here and can't really understand the game how it is here.

But you sure as hell do understand it.  So are you really going to fight this crusade as Melvyn wants us to?  Gonna refuse to play with John V, or Steve P, or Mike Benham, if they use rangefinders?

Or is it as I suspect that you will give them shit about it - maybe - but really do see how impractical and nonsensical this all is?

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Ok Dave.

I just have zero clue as to why that matters.  And who you want to admit to playing something other than the real mccoy, and why it matters if they do.

Oh well, I guess it shall remain a mystery.

[Tom Huckaby]

David, I'll save you some time.  Dave neither plays competitively nor keeps score, outside of how his bets stand from time to time.  So he won't answer this other than to say he wouldn't be playing in a competitive event in the first place, and if he was, they wouldn't allow LC&P.  Also the games he plays they make up their own rules, and that's all that matters - he plays the same as everyone else.  Many times it's not the real mccoy, but he doesn't care if it is.

Save yourself.. don't get into this with him!

DSchmidt, how did I do?

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave:  of course I'd play that way.
I drink near-beer, too, from time to time. I just don't convince myself when I'm still sober after downing 18 of them that it's due to my drinking prowess.

But who does?  And why do you care if they do?

You have me baffled here my friend.  That doesn't often happen without you trying to do so.  If you are pulling chains re all of this there will be hell to pay.

 

[Ian_L]

Eric

If someone joined us in a four ball and ‘pulled out his electronic aid’ he would have been asked not to use it. If he refused or complained then he would have been told to find another group. Simple, he is not playing the same game as the rest of us, he is in his own mind happily seeking an advantage over those he would have been playing with. Had we been playing poker, I believe he would have been accused of cheating or at the very least of trying to get one over the rest of us. That is not fair or reasonable conduct, so we would ask him to seek others of a similar persuasion.

Melvyn, would you kick someone out of your group who used distance markers?  Those using electronic aids are getting the same information in a faster way.

[Melvyn Morrow]

David – I have never been in that position to make a comment, so I have no quick fire answer to your question. One thing thought, it would be a rather slow round, which might impact on all those playing that day so I believe the question would need to be put to the Secretary of the Club.

There is a difference in driving from the Tee to being within 150 yards of the Green. Also, if it’s a Par 3 the Tee plate will already advise distance of the hole. As for past distance information, have you done a detailed search going back into the 19th century seeking out the current format re yardage – no I expect not but some of you are willing BS Ralph. I repeat that the only records I have found to-date are a few Driving competitions from a know spot to decide who’s ball could travel the longest distance. I have as yet still not found any information regards yardage or distance measured from the fairway to the Pin. I started my search in 1830 and have reached the 1890’s and nothing resembling the current yardage/distance markings.

I again repeat myself and say that golfers do not need this information to play golf, that ability to judge distance already exists within each golfer. Through practice and natural skill, the golfer improves his eye body co-ordination, which in turn improves his game and accuracy. Are you saying the current golfers are just too impatient to wait for their skill to develop and are looking for the fast and easy option?

Those who continue to state that I am superior keep coming out with this crap every time, must be due to their weak argument.

I am not arrogant, nor do I consider myself superior, but I base my opinion on history and how it was when I started the game. Yes I want all distance aids banned, but I have no power on this site (which is just a Discussion Group lest we forget) and certainly not because who my father or his father may have been. 

Golfers need a ball, a club to play but they do not need distance markers – they just gives the golfer a reassuring mental boost which clearly is now habit forming. The real truth and problem is that golfers feel it gives them an advantage thus they are not willing to give it up – that makes a clear statement about the quality of the individual golfer and not those who wish to see all markers & electronic aids removed.

Had many of you bothered to read any of my past posts you will have noticed it’s just my opinion I voice, which by the way has no authority whatsoever so why the venom in your replies? 

Melvyn

PS Ian, My friends and I don't use distance aids. nor do we use carts, so we would not want a fourth joining us if they used both or either - they would be playing a different game to the rest of us. It’s a majority rule decision not just mine. 

[A.G._Crockett]

I am now playing sans rangefinder for the first time in a couple of years; had to send it back to be recalibrated, and it is now on its way back from Bushnell.

A buddy and I played a new course today, and I can GUARANTEE you that it cost us at least 30 min. not to have the rangefinder.

I have said this before, but there are TWO very distinct issues here.  One is whether or not distance-finding devices speed play.  They do, and there can be no doubt about it.  Period.  The second issue is one of purism, and that is very, very different.  Don't confuse the two, which happens every single time there is a thread about this. 

I get the purism argument, but I really doubt that there are many (if any!) on this site who don't try to find some kind of yardage when they play, especially on an unfamiliar course.  Once you start pacing, looking at a yardage book, whatever, all bets are off and a rangefinder becomes just another, quicker way to the same end.  Period.

[Chris DeNigris]

Dave- It seems if you are that pure of mind (aka Melvyn) regarding the absolute sanctity of the game...then you would certainly abstain from use of as many technological advances as you could. Do you deliberately avoid noticing yardage markers, sprinkler heads, etc.? Never ask if the red flag means front or middle that day?

[Rob Rigg]

If one is to play the game in its purest form then it would be hickory golf, obviously without yardage, and walking only.

Of course, even hickory shafts and heads are more technology advanced with frequency matching, etc.

Anyone who uses steel or graphite shafts or metal headed driver is not playing golf in its purest form.

Rangefinders are only one issue tightly tied to yardage. If you use ANY yardage, why does it matter if you pace it, use a rangefinder, look at a 150 pole or sprinkler head or use a distance device, it is ALL the same thing.

Even if you look a the yardage on the scorecard you are "cheating" and not playing "pure" golf.

Does "pure golf as it was played hundreds of years ago" even exist anywhere?

This is probably a new thread but anyways.