Scottsdale Golf

[Kevin Norby]

Guys,

I'm going to be in Scottsdale for a few days next week and I'm curious what some of you feel, architecturally speaking, is some of the best golf in the Scottsdale/Phoenix area.  There's some great golf in the area but I'm often surprised which courses my local friends seem to enjoy playing over and over again.  I've played Quintero, Apache Stronghold, Superstition Mountain, Silverleaf, Grey Hawk, The Boulders, Whirlwind, Golf Canyon, Legend Trail and the Chiricahua Course at Desert Mountain. Havent played DC Ranch, Whisper Rock or Fire Rock but curious what all of you think.

Kevin

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Try Vista Verde and Talking Stick North on the public side. You won't be disappointed.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/talkingstick1.html

[Damon Groves]

Definitely We Ko Pa both the Cholla and Saguaro courses.

[Andy Troeger]

I'd second We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and Vista Verde on the public side. Haven't played Cholla.

If you have access, I'd recommend Estancia, Whisper Rock, Desert Highlands, and Blackstone. If you enjoy something that's not overseeded Desert Mountain Outlaw is certainly very different from the usual AZ fare and a lot of fun.

[Carl Nichols]

I'll also second Saguaro, which I much preferred to Cholla.

On the private side, if you have access, I really really liked Desert Forest.  Some here agree; others don't.

[Jason Topp]

This thread contains my thoughts from a year or two ago:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,29304.0.html

[Kevin Norby]

Sounds like I need to se We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and Whisper Rock.  I've played Dinosaur at Gold Canyon, Desert HIghlands and Talking Stick but its been a while and I cant say I remember much about any of them.    I also spoke to someone yesterday who said that they played the new Vista Verde course recently and didn't care for it at all. I know his game pretty well.  He's probably a 12 handicap and he thought the greens were too domed and unreceptive for his game.  He said he probably wouldn't go back.  I'd like to see it for myself.

Kevin

[Jason Topp]

Kevin

I echo the Vista Verde recommendation.  I must have gone there after the thread I attached.  You will find it very playable.

[Dan Kelly]

I've never been to Scottsdale, but my daughter came back from there last spring liking Vista Verde a lot.

[Jim Colton]

Kevin,

  I'm going to be in Phoenix next week as well (Weds-Fri).  If you want, IM me and let me know of what you decide on for golf.  I'm going for work but looking for an excuse to bring the sticks.

[Bruce Leland]

Kevin, you are leaving good old Minny when it's going to be 50 in MPLS/St. Paul?? I just got back!  Anyway, if you can swing Whisper Rock by all means play both.  We played 36 at Quintero last week and it was in very good condition with the greens rolling at about 11. 

Have Fun!

[Mark Smolens]

Vista Verde was in great shape last week, but Saguaro was even better.  If you can swing it, Outlaw is playing as hard and fast as anything I've ever played across the pond.

[Duane Sharpe]

I too am heading there next week. We will be playing the new PAPAGO on Wednesday, Superstition Mountain on Thursday, Talking Stick North on Friday and Vista Verde on Saturday. I will give a post of my opinion after this trip.
Can't wait. -45 degrees celcius here this week with 3 feet of snow still on the ground  !! I can't even convert to fahrenheit !
Sharpee

[Mike McGuire]

Vista Verde has no clubhouse. So don't show up hungry or in need of a sleeve or a glove. 

[Forrest Richardson]

I was able to get out a play our Legend Trail a few weeks ago. The new turf on the greens has come out well — a great improvement over the trouble of the past several years. I think Legend Trail is often overlooked in Scottsdale golf, but I have always felt it an enjoyable and graceful desert course. We have always been proud of the plan because it works well with the obligatory housing — unlike many community courses that look good for several years until the first neighborhoods are realized.

My choice at WeKoPa is easy: The Saguaro is a solid design and best enjoyed as a walk.

[Damon Groves]

Sounds like I need to se We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and Whisper Rock.  I've played Dinosaur at Gold Canyon, Desert HIghlands and Talking Stick but its been a while and I cant say I remember much about any of them.    I also spoke to someone yesterday who said that they played the new Vista Verde course recently and didn't care for it at all. I know his game pretty well.  He's probably a 12 handicap and he thought the greens were too domed and unreceptive for his game.  He said he probably wouldn't go back.  I'd like to see it for myself.

Kevin

It seems the concensus is the Saquaro course at WeKoPa but I actually prefer the Cholla course. If you get the chance play both but you cannot go wrong either way.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark S:

Thanks for the info on Outlaw.

I've always liked the place because it doesn't fall into the predictable pattern of many desert courses.

You can walk it and it's free of clutter.

The fast and firm conditions you mentioned are truly ideal.

Certainy I would recommend it for those who can access it.

p.s. The only shortcoming is the very small landing area for the demanding par-4 10th -- the green only accepts the best of best approaches and even then it can come down a bit of luck for your ball to remain on the surface.

Mark, two final questions -- you have 10 rounds to split between VV and Saguari at We-ko-Pa - how do you split them up ?

Where would you rate Outlaw among the desert courses you have played ?

Many thanks ...

[Mark Smolens]

Vista Verde has no clubhouse. So don't show up hungry or in need of a sleeve or a glove. 

There's a cart girl now, with very nice turkey wraps.  And if you need a glove, buy it in the Tonto Verde clubhouse where you have to pay your greens fee anyway.

Matt, I love VV, but I think that sometimes a decent shot can be marginalized by the extreme firmness of the greens (my buddy from RI, the golf coach at Brown, thinks it's a function of their newness, but it's no more recent than Saguaro so I'm not so sure about that).  It may well be that those shots are coming from a position they shouldn't be coming from, but I'm no stick.  Single digit handicap maybe, but the greens at Vista are so severe that if you're not playing well, it can be a frustrating round.  Also, there's lots of ground to cover if you try to walk VV (even tho there's only 1 house under construction, that's the ultimate plan), while Saguaro's an absolute joy to walk.  I'd have to vote 7-3 or 6.5-3.5.

Hard to rank Outlaw because I was a tad under the weather from my between round sandwich (our host, the father of one of my buddy's Brown recruits, had us at Apache in the morning -- which I also liked a lot), so I played like a pig.  But on a lot of shots from around the green I felt like I was in Holyoke, and in my view that's very high praise indeed.  If Ballyneal is considered desert golf ("high desert"?), it has to be # one, but I'd place Outlaw not far behind (and the best of the 5 I've played at DM).  Have not yet been to Desert Forest or Lower Course at Whisper Rock.  Seems to me there's a pretty wide gap b/t public and private in the Valley, however, but I'd have to say that you'll have a hard time finding a more fun golf course to play in the Valley than Outlaw. . .

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Many thanks for the detailed reply.

I really enjoyed Outlaw because it presents an entirely different picture than what is generally associated with the likes of "traditional" desert golf.

I am a fan of other DM courses -- Chirichua comes quickly to mind and I have no idea on how far you go but the original Geronimo was a treat to play although the intensity meter was quite high.

Outlaw is extremely forgiving from the tee but the real need is to get the ball in the proper position in order to max out the score possibilities. You can walk the course which is a plus -- there is also no clutter because of the off-course border with I believe is BLM land and other state-owned land, if memory serves.

There was a scuttle bug about Outlaw being severed from DM but I never heard anything more than just rumors. Outlaw is a fun layout - it offers plenty of options and I often think Team Nicklaus never really gets any plaudits for what they did there.

In regards to VV I can understand the demands the greens place on approaches. But I think you answered your own question -- it really comes down to approaching the targets from the appropriate target lines. Those who fail to do that will likely be under-the-gun to achieve anything remotely close to consistency.

I frankly don't see any real discernible difference between VV and Saguaro. Candidly, if no one knew who designed Saguaro and who designed VV I  believe the cited differences between the courses would be far less -- if anything at all. Too many people are unconsciously influenced by just who the designer is.

p.s. Last item on Outlaw -- what did you think of the green at the 10th hole there ? I just see that as one of the prime weaknesses because the narrowness of the landing area -- plus the overall firmness -- makes playing down through the 11th fairway a preferred way to go -- clearly, it's just a tough SOB shot to play from 80-90 yards out.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I agree with you regarding #10 at Outlaw--its a bit much. I wouldn't mind the size of the green if the bunker wasn't so deep in front (and I didn't get the impression that long was any picnic either). There are a few other spots that I think push the envelope--the first two greens offer significant challenge right out of the gate. I get the idea its a course that wouldn't be that hard for a good player who was familiar with the course, but would eat high handicappers alive who wouldn't be able to hit some of the high shots required to hold greens or the creativity to recover. Definitely recommended, just perhaps not as enthusiastically as you or Mark. Chiricahua is definitely much more like other desert courses, but I'd probably give it the edge of the Desert Mountain courses I've seen. I've also played Cochise, which isn't quite at the level of the other two IMO.

I would say that Saguaro is quite a bit less severe around the greens than Vista Verde. Both have interesting features, but VV struck me as being more penalizing of the two. The fairway bunkers are also more in play than at Saguaro. I could see how someone would think either/both of those things are good, or not.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The problem is that too often high handicappers feel they need to fire at the flag when the more prudent course -- which Outlaw provides -- is to take the more "round about" approach to the target itself.

The greatness of Outlaw, in my mind, is that you have alternate game plans for every hole -- and -- it allows the weaker player to make a higher score without brutalizing them in the process. The course sets a tone because it runs counter to what you see with the other DM courses -- although you and many others were not able to play the original Geronimo course which I believe was truly both intense and stunning for the overall experience you received in a desert setting. That has since been changed with a few hole changes made in the most recent past.

Outlaw could modify the 10th hole in a small but useful way. You are right --going over the back of the green is deadsville. If the green were expanded just a bit it would help. I do know that strong players will simply take driver and try to reach the frontal left bunker and play from there. Anyone laying up and trying to play from 80-100 yards had better have the feel of Lefty or some of the top wedge players because the shot has to stop as fast as a jet landing on an aircraft carrier.

Andy, in regards to Saguaro I see vast wide fairways with little in terms of discerning the appropriate target lane for approach play to be nothing more then width for width sake. VV does provide fairway bunkers that put a premium on driving the ball. You need to calculate the line of play when at the tee because it's not just going to suffice to hit it anywhere and then go from there. I see Saguaro as a much less thinking course off the tee than VV and VV adds a much more probing dimension with one's approach play because the contours and fall-offs for errant play can be quite taxing if you're not executing properly.

I also think VV gives the "appearance" of tightness off the tee but there's more than enough room. Clearly, VV does offer a good bit more than so many other public options in AZ. How it fails to be rated among the top 25 by Golfweek clearly is a fumble of epic proportions.

[Carl Nichols]

I preferred Saguaro to V.V. because, among other things:
1.  It's a better piece of property.
2.  It had more variety around the greens; perhaps because it has less elevation changes, V.V. relies a lot on pushup greens.
3.  It's significantly more walkable. 
4.  It requires considerable strategy off the tee -- IMO, just about as much as V.V.
 
This is not to say that V.V. isn't in the top 25 public in AZ; it probably is, I just haven't played enough of the other courses to make that call.  But I would play Saguaro 7-3 over V.V.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

The problem is that too often high handicappers feel they need to fire at the flag when the more prudent course -- which Outlaw provides -- is to take the more "round about" approach to the target itself.

The greatness of Outlaw, in my mind, is that you have alternate game plans for every hole -- and -- it allows the weaker player to make a higher score without brutalizing them in the process.

Matt,
For the most part I agree that the prudent course works at Outlaw, but not always. One can try to play intelligently at the 2nd for example by laying up and pitching on to the green, but miss long left or short right and you're toast unless you've got a deft short game. Same with #10 to that left pin--the play might still be the right side of the green. Certainly if someone plays the course intelligently they can save a lot of shots, but the recoveries in some cases are very difficult. That can be said about a lot of very good golf courses though--it depends on each golfer's cup of tea. Its a wonderful course to play regularly for the better playing members--as has been discussed before it seems many of the older members and weaker players avoid the place. I'm surprised it doesn't make the top 25 in Arizona at least.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The whole point about Lutlaw is that it does provide OPTIONS. It also forces players to have a deft short game and to consider angles when playing.

For Team Nicklaus the very inclusion of such a course as a direct conterpoint to what you see with the other DM layouts is what makes playing there so compelling.

I get a belly laugh out of people who say they want total elasticity and throw in firm and fast conditions and then when it's there they often times fail to recognize it (not referring to you Andy or a few others here).

You say the recoveries are difficult -- I don't see them being any more difficult than other courses in the desert -- such as what you get with the 36-hole complex at WR. Outlaw requires a solid short game in which the player can vary club choice and trajectories and from sound execution can get the most out of the situation that's called upon.

Andy, the people who avoid the place just don't understand the nature of firm and fast turf conditions. They have been over-exposed to the point of total brainwashing that point-to-point total fairness for golf design is the only way to go.

What's so ironic is how people on GCA and likely those playing the game will embrace the very conditions of what golf is like across the pond but if you replicate it here in the States many of these same folks will cry foul.

Amazing indeed.