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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2009, 04:54:24 PM »
Quote from: Jim Sullivan on March 12, 2009, 04:46:01 PM
...
I think Jack learned the practice of charting from someone lesser known than Hogan, I just forget who...

That's a bit different than "pioneer"ing it.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2009, 04:59:52 PM »
"Pioneering" was tongue in cheek...but he (reputedly) was the first top line player to go through a diligent charting process.

While relatively young, my memory sucks as well so correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't Jack preparing to be a Pharmacist and decided to turn pro fairly late in the game while Tiger never intended to go through four years at Stanford if he stayed healthy.  So if you have some evidence that he went to a higher percentage of classes than Jack did I don't really think it supports your suggestion that Tiger will delve into the inner workings of creating a golf course to a greater degree than Jack may or may not have.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2009, 05:19:52 PM »
Jim,

Wasn't Jack's dad a pharmacist, and Jack had no inclination along those lines? I'll have to try to remember to look at my book giving the Arnie, Jack, Tiger stories.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Nugent

Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2009, 05:11:24 AM »
Like Kalen said, Jack's statement may give us an indication of how much input he had on those early courses he helped design.  I'm thinking of Harbour Towne and Muirfield Village.  He shares design credit.  But by his own word, he knew nothing then.  And none of the courses he designed under his own name have come close to matching them. 

Jack has made many real good courses on his own.  But no truly great ones.  In golf itself, he is one of the immortals.  In golf architecture, he is a solid touring pro, but he's no Jack Nicklaus.   
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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2009, 05:28:38 AM »
Quote from: Jim Nugent on March 13, 2009, 05:11:24 AM
But by his own word, he knew nothing then.  And none of the courses he designed under his own name have come close to matching them. 

Absolute nail on the head, IMO.
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Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2009, 10:08:26 AM »
Ha.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 03:45:09 PM by Jeff_Lewis »
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Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2009, 08:22:37 PM »
Sebonack is highly ranked and by his own admission he must have known a lot about design by then :)

Ulrich
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Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

mikes1160

Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2009, 09:41:22 PM »
It's interesting how insecure Jack can be........witness his recent comment about how "had he known someone like Tiger would come along and threaten his career major record, he might have played longer." 
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Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2009, 09:44:30 PM »
Jack was humble and gracious at one time, and accepted "help" from Desmond Muirhead and Pete Dye and many other shapers and project managers.

What he has forgotten is:.................

It is nice to be important.

It is more important to be nice.

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Jim Nugent

Re: Jack on Tiger and Design
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2009, 05:08:35 AM »
Quote from: Mike Scaletta on March 14, 2009, 09:41:22 PM
It's interesting how insecure Jack can be........witness his recent comment about how "had he known someone like Tiger would come along and threaten his career major record, he might have played longer." 

Hard to imagine him playing longer: he was in every major for something like 35 years.  But maybe he would have practiced more.  Jack's weakness was his short game.  Had he worked on that more, I bet Tiger would never have a prayer of catching him. 

I suspect Jack is the greatest talent ever in golf.  Greater even than Tiger.  But Tiger is the better, more complete golfer.  In part because he is more obsessed, and has given himself over more to the game than Jack ever did.  Maybe Jack needed that down time, though, to keep himself charged up. 
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