Jack on Tiger and Design

[David Druzisky]

I happened to catch this quote from Nicklaus from a Q&A with Matt Ginella in the current issue of GD.   It was just a little side bar thing with some references to design. Pg 82

Q - Have you ever talked design with Tiger?

JN - No. Tiger, at this point wouldn't know anything about design.  It was no different when I was starting.

Interesting and frank.

[Scott Warren]

and ignorant.

If he has never talked design with Tiger, how can he possibly know how much Tiger knows?

[Anthony Gray]

   Well every golfer knows something about design in that you know what you like and dislike when you see it.

  Anthony

 

[Kirk Gill]

From such a short statement, unconnected to any kind of context, you can as the reader decide on how to take it. The choice you make likely says more about you than about Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, or their respective knowledge of design, or each other.

Isn't it just possible that Nicklaus is making an innocuous statement intended to convey that when you start a career in GCA that you might just not know as much as you think, and might just have a lot to learn?

[Kalen Braley]

From such a short statement, unconnected to any kind of context, you can as the reader decide on how to take it. The choice you make likely says more about you than about Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, or their respective knowledge of design, or each other.

Isn't it just possible that Nicklaus is making an innocuous statement intended to convey that when you start a career in GCA that you might just not know as much as you think, and might just have a lot to learn?

Kirk,

Thats all fine and good, but if thats what he meant, the why didn't he just say it?

Not "knowing anything about design" is a far cry from saying something to the effect of he's a young-grass hopper and has much to learn. I'm no mechanic, but it doesn't mean that I don't understand the basic concepts of how cars work, run, can be fixed, etc.

Seems like the same old back-handed-compliment and condescending Jack.  But then again, I shouldn't expect him to respond any differently because he has to know Tiger designing courses is a massive threat to him and his business.  To booy, if I recall correctly Muirfield Village came very early on in his design career, so by using his own admittance, he must have not had much to do with it or how well it turned out.  Just saying...  

[Anthony Gray]

  You think he means irrigation, turf types, etc.?

  Anthony

[TX Golf]

I'm starting to think Jack is becoming more and more of a cranky old man with each passing day.

[JohnH]

Jack made a comment based on his own experiences in which he proclaimed  he didn't know anything when he started out, however it would seem he was being presumptuous to say the least that Tiger "doesn't know anything about design."

[cary lichtenstein]

Jack made a comment based on his own experiences in which he proclaimed  he didn't know anything when he started out, however it would seem he was being presumptuous to say the least that Tiger "doesn't know anything about design."

I'm sure Tiger will have the same learning curve as Jack, so he just told the truth.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm starting to think Jack is becoming more and more of a cranky old man with each passing day.

He's been known as "Karnak" for years, after the Johnny Carson character who had all the answers but not the questions!

[John Moore II]

  You think he means irrigation, turf types, etc.?

  Anthony

That is what I was thinking. I mean, I think any number of people could 'design' a golf course of some kind on a piece of land. What I think Jack means is that Tiger may not understand the small details of subsurface drainage, surface drainage, grass types, soil types, irrigation design, etc., etc. I should think the art of visual design (the part that golfers see) is far easier than the art of functional design (the part the Supers have to deal with every day). But I may not be totally correct here.

[JLahrman]

I read the whole article, and I took Jack to mean that Tiger at this point doesn't know much about golf course design from the standpoint of being able to competently design a golf course on his own.  I don't believe he meant to insinuate that Tiger doesn't understand the concept of design.

The interview with Nicklaus was much more about Nicklaus the course designer and his company as opposed to Nicklaus the golfer.

[JLahrman]

Here is the article:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/2009/04/04jacknicklaus

Here is the bit being referred to:

Q:  Have you had the chance to talk design with Tiger?
A:  No. I wouldn't think so. Tiger, at this point in time, wouldn't know anything about design. He knows how to play golf and he knows what a golf course looks like. But it was no different than when I was his age and starting out -- I wouldn't know anything about design. If he decides to get involved he'll learn. He's a smart kid and it depends on how much he wants to get involved. He won't know how to do it, but he'll learn. It will take him seven or eight golf courses before he'll learn enough before he'll really be able to talk about it intelligently.

Q:  Is there one piece of design advice you'd pass on?
A:  I would say, listen as much as you can. Take in as much as you can because there's probably nothing new in design. It's just how you apply it and how you learn it. Pete Dye started out as an insurance salesman in Indiana and started fiddling around with Indianapolis Country Club. And then people started asking him to do different things. How long did it take him to learn? It took him quite awhile, but I'll tell you he just kept learning and learning and learning. And if Tiger, if we wishes to be involved, he'll just learn and learn and learn. But now, good gracious, he has a lot of years to go play golf and so my guess is he's not going to do a lot right now. But we welcome him. I welcome him with open arms. Anytime you get the kind of fees he does it raises the bar for everybody else, so that's OK.

[George Pazin]

Wasn't Jack at a relatively comparable point in his career to Tiger's now when he worked with Pete Dye at Harbor Town?

[Will MacEwen]

This may be cutting it too fine, but it was the use of the word "intelligently" that really hit a wrong note.

[Garland Bayley]

My impression from reading about their beginnings with design is that Jack looked at it as a business venture to branch out into. Only after some time did he begin to start acquiring detailed knowledge. Tiger has spoken of a desire to delve into detail and understand golf course design from the beginning. To a certain extent it seems to be a natural extension of their financial status at the time they begin. In Jack's time, professional golf was not such a high paying enterprise even for the Jacks and Arnies of the world. Therefore, it was a business venture to lend your name to in order to get more income. Tiger has all the income anyone should desire. For him it is a chance to understand and express himself more deeply.
.

[JESII]

Garland,

While I'll agree that Jack didn't have the equivalent to Tigers Billion$, I wouldn't put Tiger's intentions too high on the perch...we haven't seen him sign any gratis deals yet, have we? They both got in it for the money...how Tiger grows it will be interesting, but probably more a sign of the times...

[David Druzisky]

The full interview (on line version provided by JAL) provides considerable more depth with Nicklaus giving some perspective and related point of view.  I think it is actually very healthy and I would guess coming from someone Tiger can and does respect.

I agree with JN and his belief that it will take numerous efforts before Tiger can talk about it intelligently, but in the meantime he will be able to do so with the ones that matter the most. Undoubtedly he will be able to convey some of the big picture traits he and his team are employing on each design and again about the play of individual holes.  What JN is indicating is that there is a bunch that goes into the entire effort and how it all comes together that took him time to better understand and that really is at the core of the design effort.  Experience.

It does sound like he might feel he could have waited and just focused on playing golf a little longer first.  And, I am sure he likes that design fee as it brings out the true competitor he is.  Unfortunately, more high design fees are not what the industry needs right now.  

[George Pazin]

Just checked, Harbour Town started hosting the PGA Tour in '69, so Jack hadn't been a pro for even ten years. I wonder if Pete Dye felt Jack couldn't talk intelligently about design at that time.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

While I'll agree that Jack didn't have the equivalent to Tigers Billion$, I wouldn't put Tiger's intentions too high on the perch...we haven't seen him sign any gratis deals yet, have we? They both got in it for the money...how Tiger grows it will be interesting, but probably more a sign of the times...

Jim,

Look at how the two approach the golf swing. Would you not agree that Jack had a laissez-faire attitude to it compared to Tiger's attitude? From what I have read, it seems their beginnings in design have the same difference.

Of course Tiger is taking money for his designs. He has a brand to maintain and enhance. But for him, money simply can't be as important as it was for Jack at the time.

[Anthony Gray]

  Will Tiger ever design a course that we all can play?

   Anthony

[JESII]

Garland,

Jack pioneered the highly detailed course charting and management that has become virtually mandatory...I do not think he took a "laissez-faire attitude" to his game.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

Jack pioneered the highly detailed course charting and management that has become virtually mandatory...I do not think he took a "laissez-faire attitude" to his game.

Jack learned from Ben Hogan's example to chart and manage. But then course management was not my example. If Jack approach everything as well as Ben Hogan, he would have understood his swing sooner and how to hit more shots.

Go beyond the game. Tiger delved into what he could learn at college better than Jack did.

[JESII]

What exactly do you mean by "Tiger delved into what he could learn at college better than Jack did"?

I think Jack learned the practice of charting from someone lesser known than Hogan, I just forget who...but it clearly demonstrates his studious approach to the game.

[Garland Bayley]

If I remember correctly, (and at my age memory can always be suspect) Jack did not take advantage of being a college student to attempt to master any of the topics offered. Tiger went to study business and made a great effort to reap business acumen from the busisness school professors at Stanford.