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Mike Hendren

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #175 on: March 14, 2009, 01:33:00 PM »
In a perfect world, I think Lederach should be in the first five positions of that list, as well.

Messrs. Cirba and Ward, I am now even more preplexed given the respect I have for your opinions.  Lederach was among my biggest recent disappointments.  I realize that places me in the minority so perhaps I should start another thread.  I found it a disjointed mis-mash of interesting architectural elements.  

Dr. Klein, it can't be easy being Matt Ward.  A lot of responsibility comes with that big ol' brain.

Bogey
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 01:36:39 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

jkinney

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #176 on: March 14, 2009, 01:33:49 PM »
I heard from a friend that Golfweek's new top 100 lists are out this week.  All I know is the modern top 10 so far:

1. Sand Hills
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Whistling Straits
4. Pete Dye Golf Club
5. Bandon Dunes
6. Friar's Head
7. Sebonack
8. Ballyneal
9. The Golf Club
10. Shadow Creek

Sebonack ahead of Ballyneal?  I can't take it any longer!

Somebody please post the lists soon.  This is my favorite discussion of the year, since it gives us a chance to compare and discuss many courses.  It also prevents me from making bold, definitive predictions about future stock market performance.

John - I agree with you that Ballyneal should be ahead of Sebonack (way ahead IMO), and I suspect that, if forced, TD would agree. I suspect he will remain silent, as he should. As for Stone Eagle, I think it was poisioned by this website's 110 degree afternoon outing in June of '06 and hasn't yet recovered. I am hearing, however,  that more raters are showing up this winter and coming off the course very pleased.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #177 on: March 14, 2009, 01:35:04 PM »
... try to go a bit deeper than the parental tone taken.



LOL
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

tlavin

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #178 on: March 14, 2009, 02:12:34 PM »
Matt Ward and Brad Klein are heroes of mine as well.

Let's be honest here: There is a bit of group-think involved in the ratings systems of the various outlets that rate golf courses.  That is a good thing, because different people like different aspects of golf course architecture and it is important for all points of view to be considered.  It's also important, I think, to disagree without being too disagreeable.

In comparing the Golfweek, Golf Magazine and Golf Digest lists as we all do every year, there can be no doubt that Brad Klein has an effect that percolates down throughout his group of raters.  Nothing wrong with that.  If you happen to share the basic philosophy that is imbued in Brad's writing over the years, you are more likely to be happy with the lists that his group comes up with.  He also has the ability to be more popular because Golfweek essentially has a Top 200 list.  It's a lot easier to be loved if you're spreading the love around to more courses and more architects and more genres and more geographic locations.

There is also no doubt that there is a certain group-think in the Golf Digest or Golf Magazine lists.  Certain architects are given more deference from GD than GW, not only because of the difference in the grading or rating systems, but also because these guys tend to talk to each other throughout the year, to play together throughout the year (just like the Golfweek raters outings) and they most likely tend to think in a somewhat similar fashion when rating courses.

This, in my judgment, is all human nature.  I admire the work that Brad and Golfweek have done because they seem to have come at the subject from the angle of a well-educated outsider who has been a booster for certain up and coming architects and certain emerging architectural trends over the years.  I also enjoy the work of the other publications, because a little controversy is good for the soul.

Having said all that, I just don't understand why Butler got dissed.  It's a crime against humanity.  It's unfair.  It's stupid.

Only kidding.

Eric_Terhorst

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #179 on: March 14, 2009, 03:38:15 PM »
I make it point to highlight a number of different points that are both supportive of what's been done while also pointing out areas where I see things differently -- some in a small way -- others in a larger way.


Matt Ward,   

Personally I enjoy reading your posts, for the amazement factor.  "No doubt" is one of your favorite phrases.   With respect to firmness of belief in your own golf judgment, some of us can only imagine how good it is to be you. 

But your desire to drill certain things into our heads with your remarks here is curious.   E.g., you never miss a chance to dismiss the Links of North Dakota, Bandon Dunes, and C&C's courses, most notably Saguaro--those are the ones I've repeatedly noticed--while relentlessly promoting Black Mesa and your other pets as the golf equivalents of the Mona Lisa.

Try to realize this--your narrowness of view on certain subjects makes it easy to ignore your views on matters seemingly important to you, when you are "pointing out areas where I see things differently."   

Just an observation from the peanut gallery.

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #180 on: March 14, 2009, 04:29:16 PM »
Michael H:

Help me to understand how Lederach was one of your "biggest recent disappointments." Have you ever played any of Kelly Blake Moran's courses before Lederach? You mentioned how the layout in Harlesville is a "mis-mash" -- be interested to know what seemed so out of place / character there.

I'd be curious to know what Pennsy public courses you truly like.

Eric T:

Quite the contrary -- I have a huge respect for what C&C do in course design. I just don't see EVERY design meriting the highest of grades that so many people feel is due -- clearly the latest version of the Golfweek modern ratings have a high frequency / evaluation of their work.

In regards to my opinions -- they are simply mine. You can throw them out the window for all that I care. If you don't care for my comments of "no doubt" then ignore it.

I relentlessly promote courses of high caliber given the range of courses I have played. I like Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa but I don't see it being as high as those who see otherwise. I think the last 6-7 holes are well worth the print they inspire but the rest of the course was lacking for me. I also mentioned how a neighboring course -- not that far away -- in the likes of Vista Verde wasn't even mentioned in the top 25 Arizona public and for many who have played both they too feel the Ken Kavanaugh design is THAT good.

In regards to Black Mesa I like it to no less a degree that others on this site who just as zealously promote the likes of a Merion / East or a Oakmont or a Pasatiempo or Chambers Bay, etc, etc. I have no idea Eriv if you have played Black Mesa -- but if you have -- please tell me your thoughts before trashing mine. I'd be more the interested in reading what you think -- so long as you can provide some depth beyond one or two-word responses.

Look at the other comments of those who have played the course -- Andy's comes quickly to mind -- and they agree with me that the course should not have lost ground as the latest ratings from Golfweek indicate.

Let me point out that I like the Links of ND -- it's good but when you hold it against other nearby courses in the same relative neighborhoods I don't see it being worth a continuous top 100 placement. If you think my opinion is all wet on LND then tell me why there is a deficiency with the other courses I believe are more sound architecturally with the likes of Hawktree, Bully Pulpit, GC of Red Rock, etc, etc.

I also like Bandon Dunes -- I just don't see it being a top 10 among ALL MODERN courses in the USA. I never said the course was a dog track and I have highlighted the key holes there. It's about proportionality when you measure such courses against the other competitors that get little fanfare because they are not at a high profile location or have some big name architect as their designer.

I also salute the work C&C do -- I simply said that a few of their layouts have not risen to the mark of their best ones. Clearly, there will be room for disagreement.

You profess my "narrowness of view" but the reality is that I have a very progressive and wide range of likes for courses and have said so many times on this site. I am not so easily pigeonholed to one formula.

Eric, feel free to ignore me whenever you wish. It's big world full of different opinions. I can respect yours.

As you say -- just a note from the peanut gallery.

Jay Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #181 on: March 14, 2009, 06:47:40 PM »
Brad - Couple of questions...

1) How many raters are required to have seen a course to make a state's top 10 list?

2) How close was Primland to making the Top 100 modern list?  I noticed it was second in VA...

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #182 on: March 14, 2009, 07:24:19 PM »
Mike - your surprise at LP on MD got me thinking of my own personal rankings in my home state.  Here are my own top 5 in GW's two catagories.

Classical

BCC
Congo Blue
Columbia
Burning Tree
FHCC
contenders (Elkridge & Mt Pleasant)

Modern

Caves
TPC Potomac (when it opens next month)
Bulle
Lake Pres
Oak Creek
contenders (Swan Point & Queenstown)

Jonathon, have you been smoking something illegal?  Oak Creek, (Swan Point & Queesntown contenders) in modern and Fountainhead (FHCC  I guess?), Burning Tree, and Mt Pleasant contending?

Burning Tree is average at best.
 Mt. Pleasant was good before Northern Parkway but not even a contender for top 20. Queenstown is just a watery grave.  It isn't even fun.
I have not played LP or the new Avenel as yet. 
Oak Creek needs to mature.
Swan Point would be average it it were in Myrtle Beach.  It just is different from other MD courses.
 I like Fountain Head and maybe it could be a contender now that I rethink it. I'd like to see them do some work on the course and clear out some trees.
 I have never like Bulle Rock, but it probably should be on the list. 
Maryland lacks some really top shelf courses once you get past BCC and Congo.
I won't comment on either Four Streams or Woodmore, since I am a member at both, but let me suggest a few others.

  Chevy Chase, Congo Gold, Bethesda, Woodmont North, I might even throw in Montgomery CC since the redo.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Brad Klein

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #183 on: March 14, 2009, 07:32:35 PM »
Jay,

1) 6 as a rule to make a state's list of the best public courses you can play, though in a very few rare exceptions for scarcely visited states (Alaska, SD), we'll drop it to 3-5 to make sure we achieve minimal coverage of five courses.
For the top-100 Classic/Modern it's 15 votes and we never, ever bend that one.

2) Primland would have been close, just outside top-100 Modern, but in any case did not have quite enough votes for the top-100, though it had enough votes for the best public courses list in the state of Virginia.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 07:41:37 PM by Brad Klein »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #184 on: March 14, 2009, 07:36:50 PM »
Jay,

1) 6 as a rule, though in a very few rare exceptions for scarcely visited states (Alaska, SD), we'll drop it to 3-5 to make sure we achieve minimal coverage of five courses.

2) Primland would have been close, just outside top-100 Modern, but in any case did not have quite enough votes.

Brad, six seems like a low number.  One guy and effectively kill a course.  A course like Musgrove Mill is pretty unique and I can see someone not liking it at all and killing its chances..  I figured it would drop out of the top 100 eventually.  But it is head and shoulders above Spring Island and Secession. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Brad Klein

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #185 on: March 14, 2009, 07:42:56 PM »
Tommy,

see my distinction, which I have elaborated and clarified:

15 votes to make top-100; 6 votes to make the public courses list in that state.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #186 on: March 14, 2009, 07:43:41 PM »
oops sorry.   missed that.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #187 on: March 14, 2009, 08:02:24 PM »
Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?



Apples to apples Brad, apples to apples.


Garland

If its a golf course it can be compared to another golf course.  All this talk of "they are so different that any comparison is unfair/meaningless" is tripe.  All it takes is someone with keen observational skills and ability to get a point across well.  Golf is golf and it needn't be anymore complicated than that.

Ciao

Sean,

Can you tell me that every nine hole course was evaluated and put into the database, and that only the Dunes made the top 100. Or, did only courses with a specific lineage get evaluated?

I would have less problem if the list were advertised as the ranking of courses with the best average score per hole. That would at least let you know why a nine hole course was included. It would also let the thoughtful person more easily come to the conclusion that it had an advantage with a smaller divisor and that comparing all nines would push it way down the scale.


Garland

Huh?  Does Golfweek guarantee that all 18 holers have been put in a database?  If so, does it matter?  I don't really have a clue what you are on about with divisors etc.  Its simple, courses are courses regardless of how many holes.  They are what they are, take it or leave it.  I am happy to take it and if I were a rater and found it exceptional I wouldn't hesitate to give a 9 holer high marks. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #188 on: March 14, 2009, 08:10:57 PM »
Matt,

Leopard's Chase in NC is okay, but no way in my mind deserving of #4 in the state. I'd place it in the very low end of the top 10 at best.

David,
That surprised me as well.  I've only played Leopard's Chase once and liked it, as I have all of Tim Cate's courses.  But I think I actually like Tiger's Eye better among just the Ocean Ridge courses.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 08:14:11 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #189 on: March 14, 2009, 08:46:53 PM »
Brad:
I haven't seen the magazine yet, but assuming the rankings are done the same way as in previous years, only public courses are ranked state-by-state.  Have you given any thought to ranking all courses (public and private) within each state? 

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #190 on: March 14, 2009, 08:52:55 PM »
Yes I have; there's not much we can't do, except for limitations of time, space and clutter

Everything is on a vast digital spread sheet and with the click of my heels and the wave of wand I can produce any variation of lists per state, instantaneously sorted by category of course type (daily-fee, private, resort, municipal, Tour course, military, university, real estate); and we can do it for any state, all US states, or for US, Mexico & Caribbean & Mexico, whatever.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 08:57:09 PM by Brad Klein »

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #191 on: March 14, 2009, 09:16:14 PM »
Brad,

In ranking the courses in each state, would it be possible to have any course above X.X to be listed. Then CA would maybe have 31 courses, GA might have 11, etc.

Is the 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 used to balance out regional bias and to give the clubs a nice number to promote? I suppose if you are #9 it is nice to say you are in the "Top 10", but a course that is #11 might like that info also if they are an 11 that might be a 9 or a 4 in another state.

Just some thoughts. Love the lists and all the work involved!

Cheers, Jeff
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #192 on: March 14, 2009, 09:17:44 PM »
Yes I have; there's not much we can't do, except for limitations of time, space and clutter

Everything is on a vast digital spread sheet and with the click of my heels and the wave of wand I can produce any variation of lists per state, instantaneously sorted by category of course type (daily-fee, private, resort, municipal, Tour course, military, university, real estate); and we can do it for any state, all US states, or for US, Mexico & Caribbean & Mexico, whatever.

Thanks for the answer.  Count me as a vote for putting composite state-by-state rankings on the GW website; I think it would be very interesting to see how non top-200, but still very good, courses compare (at least with others within the same state).  

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #193 on: March 14, 2009, 09:51:24 PM »
Jeff,

I appreciate that you realize it is work. The whole point about creating a system that aggregates bias is that you're not doing science, you're just finding a way to collect individual views. But like everything else, it takes an incredible amount of behind-the-scenes work to make the system function as a system. If individuals want to disagree or argue that the lists are off, fine. That's their prerogative. All I can do is present the results and hope we have raters who are open-minded, educated and not starry eyed.

As for the state-by-state list, like everything else we do there's no definitive science. It seems to me (it's my call) that South Dakota, Alaska and Rhode Island, for example, all have a pretty narrow base of quality public golf  to offer; whereas California, Florida, Arizona have an awful lot. So the former get 5, the later get 25, and in between there's a relative distribution of 5-10 (NC, SC)-15 (NY, NV, HI)-20 (MICH)-25.

I suppose we could simply list all courses above a certain baseline, whether 5.0 or 5.5.  If 5.0 were the cutoff, we'd have 65 in Cal., 25 in Michigan, 17 in Nevada, 2 in New Hampshire and Tennessee; 650 in all, about 50% more than we have now. Hey, I kind of like that idea. If we had the cutoff at 5.5 we'd have a total of 330.

Oh well, now I'm gong to spend the next hour exploring the spreadsheet possibilities.

Meanwhile, I can also tell you that as much fun as is it is to configure ratings along different dimensions, we'd still publish a list that provides the best 5-10 or whatever for each state because the whole point of that list is provide a readers service to everyday golfers in each if the states as to where they can go in their state for quality golf. So in that sense, the state-by-state Best Course You Can Play list has a slightly different audience than the Top-100 Classic and Modern.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 07:16:45 AM by Brad Klein »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #194 on: March 14, 2009, 10:42:52 PM »
In a perfect world, I think Lederach should be in the first five positions of that list, as well.

Messrs. Cirba and Ward, I am now even more preplexed given the respect I have for your opinions.  Lederach was among my biggest recent disappointments.  I realize that places me in the minority so perhaps I should start another thread.  I found it a disjointed mis-mash of interesting architectural elements.  

Dr. Klein, it can't be easy being Matt Ward.  A lot of responsibility comes with that big ol' brain.

Bogey

Michael,

Having a pretty good feel for your tastes, I'm not sure I would have sent you to Lederach.

Certainly blind bunkers, and wild greens and trees seemingly in the middle of fairways and 625 yard severely uphill holes where two good woods leaves a completely blind 3-iron third aren't everyone's cup of tea, admittedly.

However, from my perspective, it's a course that stretches the envelope on what is "acceptable" and imaginative and makes you think on every shot and the fact it's a public course and they've pulled off that type of audacious chutzpah that makes me think of some of the most unusual and mind-bending features of St. Andrews in the middle of eastern PA farmland is something I find both artistic and worthy of merit.

Recognizing how admittedly unusual Lederach is, however, is why I said "in a perfect world", because I also know it's not in the mainstream.

I also owe you a large apology for missing your trip, but that's something better done in private.

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #195 on: March 14, 2009, 11:06:32 PM »
Mike C:

Interesting point when you mentioned the word "mainstream." Curious to know what that means to you and whether a listing of the best designed layouts needs to follow a "mainstream" bent? Must all or a large percentage of courses then need to follow a predictable presentation and style for them to be recognized?

Or might it be possible that those who feel Lederach or other such courses is lacking stems from a narrower base of courses from which they can draw certain conclusions as you have done.

I don't find Lederach to be so far off the path to the equivalence of say a Tobacco Road or if one wants to really push the enevelope of sensibilities - the original Stone Harbor comes quickly to mind. Or if you will Mike - one of your favorites (and mine too) -- the famous Shoregate !

Kelly provided a slew of options on just about every hole there and if players play the appropriate tee box the challenge is certainly well within most capabilities.

Look forward to your response (and others who care to weigh in).

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #196 on: March 15, 2009, 12:15:40 AM »

Garland

Huh?  Does Golfweek guarantee that all 18 holers have been put in a database?  If so, does it matter?  I don't really have a clue what you are on about with divisors etc.  Its simple, courses are courses regardless of how many holes.  They are what they are, take it or leave it.  I am happy to take it and if I were a rater and found it exceptional I wouldn't hesitate to give a 9 holer high marks. 

Ciao

Courses are courses regardless of how many holes? Funny thing about that, get a place with 3 separate nines, what do they rate? Three courses? I bet if you examine the rated courses, you won't find three courses, but one because they have selected two of the nines to make an 18. If courses are courses, why would they put two different courses together for the rating? And you know what? I bet they don't make each pair such as A and B, B and C; and A and C and rate them. So they don't rate the three courses, and they don't rate the three pairs. So how does that compute in the courses are courses formula?

Guess this is an agree to disagree time.

Ciao

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #197 on: March 15, 2009, 12:15:25 PM »
Huck and Shiv -

GD has missed the boat on Kingsley for FAR too long. Top 20 in the state is an absolute joke. As far as Rock Creek goes, it is tough to get to and not enough people made it. I say give GW a pass. I hope enough of our guys make it there this year. I know at least two will ;D.

Some others have commented on Pete Dye GC. It is fantastic and my favorite Pete Dye layout. 'Nuff said.
Mr Hurricane

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #198 on: March 15, 2009, 01:36:14 PM »
In a perfect world, I think Lederach should be in the first five positions of that list, as well.

Messrs. Cirba and Ward, I am now even more preplexed given the respect I have for your opinions.  Lederach was among my biggest recent disappointments.  I realize that places me in the minority so perhaps I should start another thread.  I found it a disjointed mis-mash of interesting architectural elements.  

Dr. Klein, it can't be easy being Matt Ward.  A lot of responsibility comes with that big ol' brain.

Bogey

Michael,

Having a pretty good feel for your tastes, I'm not sure I would have sent you to Lederach.

Certainly blind bunkers, and wild greens and trees seemingly in the middle of fairways and 625 yard severely uphill holes where two good woods leaves a completely blind 3-iron third aren't everyone's cup of tea, admittedly.

However, from my perspective, it's a course that stretches the envelope on what is "acceptable" and imaginative and makes you think on every shot and the fact it's a public course and they've pulled off that type of audacious chutzpah that makes me think of some of the most unusual and mind-bending features of St. Andrews in the middle of eastern PA farmland is something I find both artistic and worthy of merit.

Recognizing how admittedly unusual Lederach is, however, is why I said "in a perfect world", because I also know it's not in the mainstream.

I also owe you a large apology for missing your trip, but that's something better done in private.

Wow.  I have no idea where Lederach fits into any ranking system except my own, but I thought it a very good course.  I was particularly impressed with the bunkering.  I can't remember the last time I played a course where so few bunkers affected the game so much.  Personally, I think archies should be going to see the course if only for the bunkering.  If Lederach were in a better position where it was more walkable I would put it very high on my personal list.  As it is, I think it stands up very well to highly touted courses like Tobacco Road - in fact I prefer Lederach to The Road. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #199 on: March 15, 2009, 02:12:10 PM »
...
Messrs. Cirba and Ward, I am now even more preplexed given the respect I have for your opinions.  Lederach was among my biggest recent disappointments.  I realize that places me in the minority so perhaps I should start another thread.  I found it a disjointed mis-mash of interesting architectural elements.  
...

"One man's mis-mash is another man's gem." TE Paul proponent of the big world theorem.

OK, I made that up, but I wonder if Bogey would come to the same conclusion if given Lederach in a blind contest like Charlie held for the armchairs.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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