[Tom Huckaby]

Sobe - I played CGC twice, and wished I could play it again. I thought it was pretty damn great. However... 23 modern?  Seems high to me also.

Interesting though how the GW boys have shifted their mancrushes... sure used to be Doak....

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry Dave.  I am going with the goose/gander initiative here.  Just as GD was insane for omitting Kingsley for so long, you GW boys are equally insane for the ommission of Rock Creek.

 

[Julian Wise]

Can someone please explain how Engineers is on this list?  I belive there are fifty better golf courses within fifty miles of Engineers.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry Dave.  I am going with the goose/gander initiative here.  Just as GD was insane for omitting Kingsley for so long, you GW boys are equally insane for the ommission of Rock Creek.

 

Tom, I don't think anybody's been there.  I think I might have been the first one there after it opened, and that was August as I recall.

Sorry man.  As true as that may be, it was not allowed for GD and Kingley.

So explanation DENIED.

Your magazine panel is rife with insanity.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Oh please David.  MANY made the GD is insane claim the very first year.  You are either forgetful or quite in denial.

As for how it played out after that, I make no comment.

So until Rock Creek appears on the GW list... you guys are completely off your rockers.  Must have heads so far up C&C's butts you've lost all sense of vision.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Nice try, spinmaster.

What I am saying is quite simply this:

If one is to give GD crap for omission of Kingsley the very first year (when the truth was that few if any had seen it - and oh so many GW raters and others did give this crap); then similar crap simply must be allowable to GW for its ommission of Rock Creek (whatever the hell the truth might be, which is of course that few have seen it).

So, you remain insane and/or too submerged in the rectum of one of your mancrushes.  Take your pick.

 

TH

ps - of course the real truth is BOTH positions are inane.  But what fun is that?

[Tom Huckaby]

Nice try, spinmaster.

I didn't read any further.  I didn't have to. 

It's not a nice try.  It's game, set & match.  Checkmate.  A 9&8 match play victory. 

Yep.  I won.  Thanks.
And I paid you your beer.  You were just too engrossed in conversation over the cheater line to accept it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Huck,

Where does GD rank Kingsley today? 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Huck,

Where does GD rank Kingsley today? 

No clue.. and of course that doesn't matter.  Let's talk when you morons get Rock Creek the accolades it deserves.

 

[Tim Leahy]

How does Sherwood not make the modern list but Mayacama does?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

How does Sherwood not make the modern list but Mayacama does?

I've always been under the impression that Mayacama was the better course.

[Matt_Ward]

I have a few other comments to throw forward ...

Saw the state public ratings and in Colorado I just about laughed for the longest of times to see Cougar Canyon rated #1 but then there's no mention of Engh's superlative work at Four Mile Ranch in nearby Canon City.

It can't be the excuse that too few people played FMR but enough played Cougar Canyon. CC is a fine layout and likely Andy T will weigh in with his comments to support it. But the rest of the state ratings is also flawed with the likes of TF's Red Sky Ranch being rated among the top five but the far superior Norman layout there is rated far further down.

Someone also has to explain to me how a place of such stellar qualities like Vista Verde is NOT even among the top 25 public courses in all of Arizona. Big time mistake on that front.

Julian Wise:

Agreed -- how Engineers is ahead of the likes of Westchester CC which was totally dropped is another fumble in terms of real understanding. Those in the metro NYC area would likely agree with me on that comparison.

Huck:

I have no vote on the results that happened.

Digest takes a big hit for the constant ignorance (stupidity) on the issue of Kingsley. End of story on that front. In regards to Rock Creek the issue is likely exposure but clearly Rock Creek should have been included for the Golfweek poll given how other new courses such as Sand Hollow in Utah and the aformentioned Cougar Canyon in Colorado.

Key pubs need to be ahead of the curve -- not behind them.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I haven't seen the actual magazine yet--but I'm very surprised that Cougar Canyon would be #1 public in Colorado. I like it a lot, but I don't think I'd go that far. Four Mile Ranch certainly would be deserving of being on the list. Red Sky Norman also would be significantly higher than Fazio in my book. I like Lakota Canyon a lot, especially the front nine (other than #1).

I agree that there shouldn't be a 50 spot difference between Paa-Ko Ridge and Black Mesa. I think Paa-Ko's rating is very reasonable, its Black Mesa that is undervalued.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Given the dialogues we have shared on Colorado golf I am amazed at the ignorance / stupidity on how the ratings came out there.

We have shared our differences but those differencs are easily minor when you see the outcomes Golfweek offered for the state.

I like Lakota Canyon Ranch immensely -- but FMR is beyond what Engh did for the layout in New Castle.

The Fazio layout at Red Sky Ranch has formulaic written all over it -- a few holes of note but nothing to merit -- let alone sniff a top ten placement.

The Norman layout at Red Sky Ranch is easily among my top three public in the state.

The only saving grace for the Colorado ratings was the inclusion of Keith Foster's Haymaker in Steamboat Springs.

I don't know if you saw my comments on the omission of Vista Verde from the top 25 public listed in Arizona. That's another major fumble from Golfweek. I see the layout as easily being within the top ten there. How the Scott Miller original layout at We-ko-Pa as one of the top three layouts is likely tied to a double-header vote of support for both courses there.

Last item -- Paa-ko-Ridge is a top 100 modern in my mind. But if anything I see it towards the rear of the list and Black Mesa is easily within my personal top 25 modern courses. No doubt when the Doak 18 at Black Mesa opens there will be a "reawakening" towards the overall facility.

If anything I have to salute the folks at Bandon Dunes for their considerable savvy in getting their product out in front. The postcard insert in the current issue of Golfweek is another testament to their ability to keep their name front and center.

[Andy Troeger]

I agree with your Vista Verde observation as well--I'd put it #2 public in the state behind Saguaro of what I've played. I've missed a lot on the public side though--in any case I'd have a hard time seeing it fall from my top five publics in the state.

I'm trying to hold off commenting too much until I see the whole list. My copy always seems to take its time arriving!

No argument on Black Mesa in the top 25 either. I'd personally put Paa-Ko Ridge that high too, but I know that I overrate it compared to everyone else I know.

[Matt_Ward]

Couple of other comments ...

Hats off to Bedford Springs for claiming the 3rd position in Pennsy. Plenty of $$ and effort put into the place and it's paid off.

Frankly, it blows me away that people can keep on placing Olde Stonewall as a top three public there. Hurdzan / Fry have done better on cramped pieces of property -- see their effort at Eaglesticks in Zanesville, OH as a better example of that type.

When I see Links of ND claim a top 100 position I just know that a few other area courses are beyond it. Places like GC at Red Rock in Rapid City comes quickly to mind. Ditto the likes of other ND courses like Hawktree and Bully Pulpit.

For those from NC I'd like to know more about Leopard's Chase in Sunset Beach. Claims the #4 position in the Tar Heel State and that says something in my book. Is it merited ?

In my home State of NJ I think Hominy Hill gets a bad position -- although rated as #10 in the Garden State I see the work of RTJ there as one of this better designs that I have played. Seaview's Bay Course is mentioned, which is good, just thought it would be higher.

As much as Doak deserves credit for bringing back to life ACCC -- I see Twisted Dune as the best public course in NJ -- followed closely by Ballyowen.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Agreed about Bedford Springs (it's number 2 though..not 3), although it should be Number One.   It's world's better Mystic Rock.

In a perfect world, I think Lederach should be in the first five positions of that list, as well.

In NJ, good to see that the list is really right on the makr, with a few exceptions like Wild Turkey.   

Also, it's GREAT to see Ravenwood in Victor rise to #3 in the state of NY.   I'm not completely sure it's that good, but it is certainly a very well-done effort that could easily fall under the radar given its location.

In Maryland, I was quite surprised to see Lake Presidential debut at #2 behind Bulle Rock with the demise of Beechtree.   Frankly, I'm not sure which course should be #2 in that state anymore, as Dye and Doak's efforts were clearly head and shoulders above the rest.

[Brad Klein]

Matt Ward is my hero. Oh, to be able to make such confident judgments, to be so certain, so dismissive, so sure that everyone else is wrong and that one is right. 

[David_Madison]

Matt,

Leopard's Chase in NC is okay, but no way in my mind deserving of #4 in the state. I'd place it in the very low end of the top 10 at best.

[Sean_A]

Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?

Apples to apples Brad, apples to apples.

Garland

If its a golf course it can be compared to another golf course.  All this talk of "they are so different that any comparison is unfair/meaningless" is tripe.  All it takes is someone with keen observational skills and ability to get a point across well.  Golf is golf and it needn't be anymore complicated than that.

Ciao

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mike - your surprise at LP on MD got me thinking of my own personal rankings in my home state.  Here are my own top 5 in GW's two catagories.

Classical

BCC
Congo Blue
Columbia
Burning Tree
FHCC
contenders (Elkridge & Mt Pleasant)


Modern

Caves
TPC Potomac (when it opens next month)
Bulle
Lake Pres
Oak Creek
contenders (Swan Point & Queenstown)

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Interesting listing -- curious to your thoughts on Four Streams in Beallsville being left out. Isn't it worth a look on the modern side of things ?

I've always liked the layout.

Mike C:

I forgot to mention Lederach -- agreed it should be higher. Interesting to note that another Kelly Blake Moran layout -- Morgan Hill -- is not even listed. If memory serves, it was previously listed in the past as a top ten public layout.

Interesting situation in Maryland -- it appears there is an array of so-called "modern" courses that are roughly in the same caliber as each other.

I personally have always liked P.B. Dye but my take on that layout stems from what was there originally a number of years ago -- I believe, a number of elements there have been changed -- maybe others can say for certain whether those changes were for the better or otherwise.

Speaking of The Empire State, Mike, I know you are a fan of Olde Kinderhook as I am. How it gets lost in the shuffle is proof to me that few people really dig down deep and do their homework because of its isolation -- the Albany, NY is not generally known as a golf "hotbed" -- and clearly there are people who see Rees Jones in a certain light. OK certainly merits a top 100 position given the others from his portfolio that are listed.

David M:

Many thanks -- just a final question -- would a visit to play the course be worth the time and energy. I have a good college friend who lives near Sunset Beach.

Brad Klein:

You are also my hero.

When any publication comes out with a ratings it will invariably generate comments -- pro, con or otherwise.

I have my opinions -- no less than the ones you write in Golfweek. You are quite definitive in yours and I always enjoy reading them but I do reserve the right to disagree. Try to realize this -- I make it point to highlight a number of different points that are both supportive of what's been done while also pointing out areas where I see things differently -- some in a small way -- others in a larger way. I always try to explain my thinking whenever I can.

I state only my opinions -- they are mine. Feel free to take issue with them at anytime but try to go a bit deeper than the parental tone taken.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - I thought of 4 Streams.  I've played it a half dozen times over the years and have always felt it is missing something.  I'd put it in my second 5 but I know others would put it higher.

J

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - another thing.  I really think people are going to be surprised with the old TPC Avenel (TPC Potomac).  As a longtime member I'm sure people will yell that my opinion is too bias but it could well be the best modern in MD.  Come on down and see it when it opens.

J

[Garland Bayley]

Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?

Apples to apples Brad, apples to apples.

Garland

If its a golf course it can be compared to another golf course.  All this talk of "they are so different that any comparison is unfair/meaningless" is tripe.  All it takes is someone with keen observational skills and ability to get a point across well.  Golf is golf and it needn't be anymore complicated than that.

Ciao

Sean,

Can you tell me that every nine hole course was evaluated and put into the database, and that only the Dunes made the top 100. Or, did only courses with a specific lineage get evaluated?

I would have less problem if the list were advertised as the ranking of courses with the best average score per hole. That would at least let you know why a nine hole course was included. It would also let the thoughtful person more easily come to the conclusion that it had an advantage with a smaller divisor and that comparing all nines would push it way down the scale.

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