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K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2009, 07:54:30 PM »
I was surprised to see Black Mesa fall so far.

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2009, 07:58:45 PM »
No Rustic Canyon or Tobacco Road ???

What a debut for Colorado Golf Club.

Looks like almost every course C&C have built is in here (Austin Golf Club & Sugarloaf aren't I know)

Great to see Ballyneal that high!

Bandon Dunes, really, that high???

I still scratch my head about Whistling Straits getting so much love....

No Rock Creek Cattle???  Too new?



K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2009, 08:00:55 PM »
Classic

1. Cypress Point Club (1)
2. Pine Valley (2)
3. Shinnecock Hills (3)
4. Merion (5)
5. Oakmont (6)
6. NGLA (7)
7. Pebble Beach (4)
8. Crystal Downs ( 8 )
9. Augusta National (10)
10. Prairie Dunes (9)
11. Fishers Island (12)
12. San Francisco (13)
13. Chicago (15)
14. Pinehurst #2 (11)
15. Seminole (14)
16. Winged Foot West (17)
17. Oakland Hills South (16)
18. Bethpage Black (22)
19. Garden City (19)
20. Los Angeles CC North (18)
21. Olympic Lake (20)
22. Camargo (25)
23. Country Club (21)
24. Riveria (24)
25. Southern Hills (23)
26. Wannamoisett (26)
27. Shoreacres (27)
28. Plainfield (28)
29. Pasatiempo (31)
30. Somerset Hills (29)
31. Myopia Hunt (32)
32. Maidstone Club (37)
33. Peachtree (34)
34. Winged Foot East (33)
35. Oak Hill East (30)
36. Inverness (36)
37. Quaker Ridge (35)
38. Yeamans Hall (40)
39. Baltustrol Lower (39)
40. Valley Club (41)
41. Olympia Fields North (42)
42. Baltimore CC East (38)
43. Salem CC (43)
44. Yale (44)
45. Newport (47)
46. Piping Rock (52)
47. Homestead Cascades (45)
48. Milwaukee (57)
49. Colonial (53)
50. Scioto (49)
51. East Lake (48)
52. Interlachen (51)
53. Holston Hills (54)
54. White Bear Yacht (46)
55. Medinah #3 (55)
56. Aronimink (59)
57. Cherry Hills (50)
58. Lawsonia Links (58)
59. Kittansett (61)
60. Cal Club (NR)
61. Essex CC (62)
62. Fenway (60)
63. NCR South (65)
64. Pine Needles (67)
65. Lancaster (72)
66. Franklin Hills (63)
67. Brookside CC (64)
68. Baltusrol Upper (68)
69. Huntingdon Valley (69)
70. Mountain Lake (66)
71. St Louis (74)
72. Ekwanok (82)
73. Whippoorwill CC (76)
74. Congressional Blue (70)
75. Indianwood CC Old (84)
76. Fox Chapel (73)
77. CC of Fairfield (56)
78. Minikahda Club (71)
79. Philadelphia CC Spring Mill (75)
80. Lehigh (81)
81. Taconic (89)
82. Bel Air CC (77)
83. Ridgewood (88)
84. Northland CC (87)
85. Old Town Club (86)
86. Creek Club (85)
87. Eastward Ho (80)
88. Canterbury (98)
89. Hollywood (83)
90. Skokie (78)
91. Sankaty Head (NR)
92. Rolling Green (96)
93. Brook Hollow (92)
94. Dunes Golf & Beach (94)
95. Augusta CC (95)
96. Point O Woods (93)
97. Champions Cypress Creek (90)
98. Engineers (79)
99. Beverly CC (91)
100. Sunnehanna (99)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 08:12:37 PM by Kyle Krahenbuhl »

PCCraig

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2009, 08:03:55 PM »
Wow Cassique moving up to #61.

FC-North all the way to #91??
H.P.S.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2009, 08:04:33 PM »
I was surprised to see Black Mesa fall so far.

They finally got it below the Links of ND where it belongs.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2009, 08:07:31 PM »

Kyle:

To use your own words -- if BM is indeed better than BT then clearly the NM layout should be rated nearer to the highest level.

The Bandon layouts get plenty of ink because of the exposure they have received. Pac Dunes does deserve the high fanfare -- the other two have simply benefited from the "in the area" vicinity, in my opinion.

I must not be articulating my opinion clearly enough. I rate Bandon Trails above Black Mesa, primarily beacuse I think it has superior green complexes and presents more compelling recovery shots. Black Mesa may present a more consistent level of quality from tee to green (not sold on that one), but Trails still wins for me.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2009, 08:09:52 PM »
There is no way that Bandon Dunes should be ranked high than Friars Head. Kidd has 3 holes that play right up to the cliff, and on all 3 of them he does the same thing, removes everything behind the green so you have trouble with the same thing. Bandon isn't even better there its neighbor Trails, let alone a better Coore course like Friars Head.

I cant believe how high Bethpage Black is now... its only like that because people are getting so hyped up about the open. The new bunkers on that course dont even come close to fitting in with the rest of the course, a sign of bad work. The course doesn't have interesting par 3's except for maybe #17, and greens aren't interesting. It is nice to see Winged Foot East getting more recognition though

John Kirk

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2009, 08:23:57 PM »
On my wish list, I hope Stone Eagle sneaks into the top 100, but I'm doubtful.  I want Witch Hollow to stay in the top 100.  I'd like to see Rock Creek break top 60 or so, and wonder where Mountaintop or Cornerstone will debut.

Make your predictions quick; I think the lists will be on here in short order.

John, I see the Pumpkin logo under your name... what is your affiliation if any with the club?

By the Witch Hollow is at #71

Hi Greg.  I live about five miles from Pumpkin Ridge and have been a member since 1992.  By the way, your name came up in a recent conversation with LCL.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2009, 08:36:44 PM »
Seeing lists like this one reminds me of just how many great courses are on Long Island; indeed, four of the top 13 on these 2 lists (top 7 modern, top 6 classic) are within just 20 miles of each other. 

George Freeman

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2009, 08:59:50 PM »
Biggest winners and losers according to the posted data:

Modern - Winners:

Colorado GC - 77 spots (from NR)
Fallen Oak - 45 (from NR)
Boston GC - 22
Estancia - 21 (from NR)
McArthur - 19 (from NR)  I don't know anything about this course?
Butler National - 15
Cassique - 14

Modern - Losers:

Hawks Ridge - (35)
Black Mesa - (21)
Briggs Ranch - (18)
Concession - (15)
Harvester - (15)
Forest Creek North - (15)

Classic - Winners:

Cal Club - 40 (from NR)
Canterbury - 10
Ekwanok - 10
Sankaty Head - 9
Indianwood (Old) - 9  Good to see, great course
Milwaulkee - 9

Classic - Losers:

CC of Fairfield - (21)
Engineers - (19)
Skokie - (12)
White Bear Yatch - (8)
Beverly CC - (8)
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

John Kirk

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2009, 09:00:48 PM »
I think Yeaman's Hall at #38 is quite interesting, and would even suggest it is a GCA favorite.  Tom Doak rates it a 5 in his book, and has said numerous times that a good restoration might raise the course one notch on his rating scale.  But based on his commentary in the book  "Too bad about the greens; fixed up, Yeaman's Hall would be terrific.", I would guess Tom would rate the course a 7.

No rating for Cornerstone, Mountaintop or Rock Creek Cattle.  I would guess these are too young.

Colorado Golf Club at #23 is a surprise to me.  I've only played it once, which makes it hard for me to judge.  It is very difficult, and possesses plenty of "uniqueness".  I would like it more if I played it a few times.  It also has a great warmup area, although the wramup is a bit removed from the first tee.

I don't like Los Angeles CC (#20) ahead of Riviera (#24).   Although LACC has better terrain, I feel there are 3-4 holes which are either nondescript or poorly designed.  I wonder if LACC gets stealth points for not being a Fazio/Marzolf renovation.

So far, Bandon Dunes is the most controversial.  As an Oregonian, Bandon Dunes has considerable nostalgic appeal, as the first of the great quartet of ocean courses in my home state.  It raised the bar for me, and furthered my golf education.  I believe the average resort visitor enjoys Bandon Dunes the most, though it would finish third out of three among GCA members.  Since Jaeger just mentioned the three holes to the ocean, I'd like to single out #12 as an outstanding hole.

Mark Hissey

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2009, 09:46:35 PM »
I'll say it here first.

Old Mac will be the highest entrant to next years list. Bet the house on it.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2009, 09:48:14 PM »
John - I dont know if I'd call it outstanding, its the "road hole" par 3. While it offers a cool shot, with a better background, it gets a 0 in the variety category because if you hit a good drive on #4, you played that shot... the angle of the green is even same... On top of all of that, there is another, even better version of the road hole waiting over on Old Mac, about 2 drivers and a 5-iron distance away, so now you are hitting that shot 3 times in one trip.... I loved Bandon, I just don't think its better than Friars Head.

John Kirk

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2009, 09:50:52 PM »
Mark,

Probably will have to wait two years for Old Mac to debut.

Jaeger,

No argument from me on evaluating Bandon Dunes and Friar's Head.  Friar's Head is one of my favorites.

Mike_DeVries

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2009, 09:51:27 PM »
I can't wait to see my issue -- traveling now and excited to see Greywalls made the list after finally getting enough views this last year.  I hope more of those coming to the GCA gathering in June will consider going up to play this also.

Great to see Boston Golf Club move up -- it is a special place and Gil and Jim did a great job there and Rodney is an excellent super that really gets it and makes the course play the way it should.  Really nice article on it recently in Links, I think.

Brad Klein

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2009, 09:52:08 PM »
Mark,

is that a commentary on Old Macdonald's perceived strengths or a function of the fact that the forthcoming supply of new courses is so small?

DeVries, you dope, it didn't just make the list. It made the cover (see the Web site teaser).

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2009, 09:53:40 PM »
Both

Mark Hissey

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2009, 10:07:21 PM »
Mark,

is that a commentary on Old Macdonald's perceived strengths or a function of the fact that the forthcoming supply of new courses is so small?

DeVries, you dope, it didn't just make the list. It made the cover (see the Web site teaser).

To be honest Brad, I hadn't thought about the lack of new courses. I just thought OM was fantastic. I had that feeling about it the first time I walked it with Garret Bodington last February and it was still dirt and barely anything was worked on.

We said at the time that the scale of everything was awesome and we just had this feeling it it was a special place.

I was more convinced of it after the Restoration Cup.

Jay Kirkpatrick

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2009, 10:13:45 PM »
not a lot of love for the older modern courses.  no Grandfather... no Atlanta Athletic.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 10:18:47 PM by Jay Kirkpatrick »

Sean Leary

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2009, 10:31:42 PM »
Is every year too often for this list? Thoughts?

Rob Rigg

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2009, 10:51:58 PM »
I have read that Tetherow is a better course than Bandon Dunes - I guess it should be Top 5 on the modern list  ;)

Jon Spaulding

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2009, 10:57:21 PM »
I think Yeaman's Hall at #38 is quite interesting, and would even suggest it is a GCA favorite.  Tom Doak rates it a 5 in his book, and has said numerous times that a good restoration might raise the course one notch on his rating scale.  But based on his commentary in the book  "Too bad about the greens; fixed up, Yeaman's Hall would be terrific.", I would guess Tom would rate the course a 7.

No rating for Cornerstone, Mountaintop or Rock Creek Cattle.  I would guess these are too young.

Colorado Golf Club at #23 is a surprise to me.  I've only played it once, which makes it hard for me to judge.  It is very difficult, and possesses plenty of "uniqueness".  I would like it more if I played it a few times.  It also has a great warmup area, although the wramup is a bit removed from the first tee.

I don't like Los Angeles CC (#20) ahead of Riviera (#24).   Although LACC has better terrain, I feel there are 3-4 holes which are either nondescript or poorly designed.  I wonder if LACC gets stealth points for not being a Fazio/Marzolf renovation.

So far, Bandon Dunes is the most controversial.  As an Oregonian, Bandon Dunes has considerable nostalgic appeal, as the first of the great quartet of ocean courses in my home state.  It raised the bar for me, and furthered my golf education.  I believe the average resort visitor enjoys Bandon Dunes the most, though it would finish third out of three among GCA members.  Since Jaeger just mentioned the three holes to the ocean, I'd like to single out #12 as an outstanding hole.

I love the place, but LA has no business ahead of Riviera with respect to the golf course. I believe Golf Digest has a far greater spread. The ongoing restoration at LA cannot hurt, and I would expect it to be rated further ahead of Riviera on its completion.

One has to wonder what role the "experience" plays in the mind of the rater.....if that is a defined criteria or simply has only a psychological impact.

I see Bel Air on the list so maybe answered my own question. Because that sure as hell is not a classic golf course. They should remove it from the list, and start a new list with a different header.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2009, 11:08:35 PM »
My new company motto: 

Top ten or bust!

  :D

(And hopefully not both, as was the case at St. Andrews Beach.)

John Kirk

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2009, 11:09:06 PM »
Hey Brad, nice job on the list once again.  One of my favorite features each year.

Rob Rigg

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2009, 11:13:39 PM »
Is Muirfield Village really a Top 20 modern course.

I have only read about it in the WAOG - it looks like one of those residential development courses where there is OB right on every single hole?

What about Spyglass? I thought it only had the strong ocean holes while the balance of the course was rather contrived with artificial ponds and what not.

Do the modern course ratings also have a "historical" advantage which allows what may be "also rans" to hang around the top longer than they should?

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