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Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2009, 09:09:46 AM »
Craig,

    I accept everything you just said.  Do you accept that the "Medieval Warm Period" was followed by the "Little Ice Age"?   If so are you awear of the attributed causes of either?

    I am aware that the IPCC has indicated that they do not feel these periods were global events. Of course this would not fit into the current explination, model, of global warming if they were.  The IPCC and NOAA have completely down played both of these events even though there is evidence for both all around the earth.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2009, 09:23:09 AM »
John...

"Radical leftist cause"?   Geezzz.....yeah, being a Democrat and supporting global warming makes me a "radical leftist".....whatever.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2009, 09:24:26 AM »
Craig

Here’s the bottom line. You’re entitled to your opinion, but your continual posts on every thread that takes a “political” tilt are all too often vitriolic and have the primary purpose of insulting those who voice contrary opinions.

You have become tiresome to me, and you make me angry. I participate on this site for enjoyment and entertainment, and I occasionally learn something about golf courses. You have become a pebble in my shoe.

In the future I ask that you please state your opinion on these matters and move on. If you cant do that, then go spend your leisure time at the Daily Kos or Huffington.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2009, 09:27:40 AM »
Sean...

I do not know what NASA or the IPCC thinks about these periods...

I do not think there's any question that earth has warmed and cooled several times....naturally.

Whether this current warming is man made or not...I believe it is...has a narrow window for debate.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2009, 09:29:44 AM »
Temperatures globally have actually cooled the last few years...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/4029837/Global-warming-Reasons-why-it-might-not-actually-exist.html

Some of the research about sun spots seems more compelling than the C02 story.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2009, 09:30:19 AM »
John...

feel free to ask Ran to end my participation here if you do not like the tenor of my posts...in the meantime, I suggest you ignore my posts if they irritate you.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2009, 09:34:19 AM »
Craig E...

Yes, it is true, the past couple of years have been cooler, globally.  Long term, the trend is still warmer....

Sun spot stuff is interesting...as is ocean temperature and its effect on short term weather....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2009, 09:41:47 AM »
Why does anyone have to be right or wrong about global warming, other than financial gain?

If we all decide to be good stewards of the resources under our influence, isn't that reward enough?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Chris Garrett

Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2009, 09:42:36 AM »
My only comment on this topic is that I didn't realize that there was still great opposition to the idea of man-made global warming.  

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2009, 09:52:03 AM »
Craig,

    If the trend continues in 2009, it will wipe out all of the temperature gains of the last 30 years. Also we now know that the 1934 was the hottest year on record and that 4 of the hottest years were in the 30's as opposed to 3 in the 90's.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560674/Christopher-Bookers-notebook.html

   Will its true I am a skeptic, I agree with Joe that is not only good business but good stewardship for all of us to use less and take better care of the planet.

   Of course it doesn't help that as I type this it is snowing here in Oklahoma.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:02:25 AM by Craig Edgmand »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2009, 10:04:17 AM »
   And if you are a scientist that does not sign onto and promote man made global warming you will never get your research funded, won't get published, will not make tenure etc. etc. 
     

Sean,

Thanks for pointing this out, an often overlooked yet huge piece of the puzzle.  Its very very true.

As a side question to the global warming beleivers...I'm curious what your take is on how the earth has gone into and come out of several ice ages since its existence? Is Dinasour flatulence to blame?  And if the Earth is capable of going into its own cooling down and heating up periods, then isn't it just possible that any fluctations we see could be due to natural occuring causes that were here far before "modern man"?

Consider also that the Earth has actually been cooling the last couple of years?  I suppose this is because gas prices were so high last summer people are driving less?  ::)  ::)


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2009, 10:06:36 AM »
"Non-believers are idiots", "the argument has been settled", " I am an expert/I make a living in the 'business' so I know", "Limbaugh", "Hannity", the re-branding of "glogal warming" into "climate change", the charge that all scientific evidence pointing to other causes of small increases in global temperature are funded by oil companies and are therefore invalid, etc. all point to the weakness of the "faithful" and the desperation that some in their camp have to force their view of the world on the rest of us.

Majorities have been wrong very, very often.  "Scientists" make mistakes all the time.  As has been pointed out before, theories change quite often.  And being that human beings are prone to error and weaknesses, please someone explain to me why I should put any more faith in the work of a "scientist" who is funded by EPA or any other narrow interest group with very clear agendas than one who is paid by industry?  Objectively, do they not breathe the same air, live in the same heating/cooling environment, and otherwise love their families just as much?  Could the science not be as clear as the "believers" would have us believe?  Might more government not be the answer to every single question?

And yeah, I'll put my money behind a dead guy who who wrote mostly fiction (Michael Crichton) but was eminently qualified in the sciences as opposed to a lifelong politician who was an indifferent student with a major in "Government" and whose life has been mostly that (fiction).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv9OSxTy1aU 

Folks, this is much more than whether some of our treasured seaside courses might become future snorkeling sites.  We- the U.S.- is embarking on a disastrous restructure of one of the most important components of our economy, energy.  The Obama administration has proposed a budget which will essentially destroy the domestic oil and gas industry as we know it.  It has recently taken oil shale off the table as a potentially viable source of energy when the Rocky Mountain region alone is thought to contain three times the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia.

We are unilaterally surrendering the current 4x advantage of gas production into electricity vis-a-vis alternative "green" fuels at a time when some believe this terrible recession is turning into a depression.  Some of you may recall that the huge increase of gasoline prices in 2007 and early 2008 to over $4/gal. was the final straw that broke the camel's back and got the foreclosure mess going.  I know that the administration is operating on Emmanuel's "a crisis is a terrible thing to waste" strategy, but couldn't we pick a better time to destroy an important industry?  Are we so damned cocksure that the global warming science is so accurate that we are willing to emasculate our economy?  And given that the developing world is not going there with us anyways, to what end is our self-imposed sacrifice?  Do we really have a need for self-flagellation or penance?  Finally, can someone please reference the science which has determined that the 20th century global temperatures are optimal in the thousands of years of earth's history so that Man, without regard to cost, must find a way to keep it at that level?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:12:54 AM by Lou_Duran »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2009, 10:13:30 AM »
Finally, can someone please reference the science which has determined that the 20th century global temperatures are optimal in the thousands of years of earth's history so that Man, without regard to cost, must find a way to keep it at that level?

This is a great question.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2009, 10:25:14 AM »
"Non-believers are idiots", "the argument has been settled", " I am an expert/I make a living in the 'business' so I know", "Limbaugh", "Hannity", the re-branding of "glogal warming" into "climate change", the charge that all scientific evidence pointing to other causes of small increases in global temperature are funded by oil companies and are therefore invalid, etc. all point to the weakness of the "faithful" and the desperation that some in their camp have to force their view of the world on the rest of us.

Majorities have been wrong very, very often.  "Scientists" make mistakes all the time.  As has been pointed out before, theories change quite often.  And being that human beings are prone to error and weaknesses, please someone explain to me why I should put any more faith in the work of a "scientist" who is funded by EPA or any other narrow interest group with very clear agendas than one who is paid by industry?  Objectively, do they not breathe the same air, live in the same heating/cooling environment, and otherwise love their families just as much?  Could the science not be as clear as the "believers" would have us believe?  Might more government not be the answer to every single question?

And yeah, I'll put my money behind a dead guy who who wrote mostly fiction (Michael Crichton) but was eminently qualified in the sciences as opposed to a lifelong politician who was an indifferent student with a major in "Government" and whose life has been mostly that (fiction).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv9OSxTy1aU 

Folks, this is much more than whether some of our treasured seaside courses might become future snorkeling sites.  We- the U.S.- is embarking on a disastrous restructure of one of the most important components of our economy, energy.  The Obama administration has proposed a budget which will essentially destroy the domestic oil and gas industry as we know it.  It has recently taken oil shale off the table as a potentially viable source of energy when the Rocky Mountain region alone is thought to contain three times the proven oil reserves of Saudi Arabia.

We are unilaterally surrendering the current 4x advantage of gas production into electricity vis-a-vis alternative "green" fuels at a time when some believe this terrible recession is turning into a depression.  Some of you may recall that the huge increase of gasoline prices in 2007 and early 2008 to over $4/gal. was the final straw that broke the camel's back and got the foreclosure mess going.  I know that the administration is operating on Emmanuel's "a crisis is a terrible thing to waste" strategy, but couldn't we pick a better time to destroy an important industry?  Are we so damned cocksure that the global warming science is so accurate that we are willing to emasculate our economy?  And given that the developing world is not going there with us anyways, to what end is our self-imposed sacrifice?  Do we really have a need for self-flagellation or penance?  Finally, can someone please reference the science which has determined that the 20th century global temperatures are optimal in the thousands of years of earth's history so that Man, without regard to cost, must find a way to keep it at that level?

Lou

What is interesting is that you seem to doubt the global warming science, yet have no doubts about the evidence (presumably there is some) that moving away from an oil based economy will spell doom for us.  I honestly can't say much about either scenario, but when we initiate a war to protect oil supplies/interests that big bulb should light up with the warning that something in our thinking has gone astray.  We all need to look at the wider picture and what the implications are for our dependence on oil.  Heres a prediction, when historians look back at these past 100 years it will become known as the Oil Century.  That isn't so bad except that after 70 years we should have been seriously researching alternative fuels rather than merely hoping the problems associated with oil will go away.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jamie Barber

Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2009, 10:39:53 AM »
Finally, can someone please reference the science which has determined that the 20th century global temperatures are optimal in the thousands of years of earth's history so that Man, without regard to cost, must find a way to keep it at that level?

This is a great question.

Joe

The issue is that we, as humans, have based our current lifestyles around current temperatures, not that they are optimal for the planet.

For example, *if* the sea level rise as predicted, it threatens a huge number of cities around the globe. The catastrophe will be largely in human terms, not for the planet.

I think regardless of if you believe or not, if they are correct it's probably too late anyway

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2009, 10:41:58 AM »
Sean,

     If you are interesting in the science and economics behind sustainable energy you should visit this site by David MacKay who published a book called "Sustainable Energy - without the hot air."  He does a good job of quantifying the costs in the UK.

http://www.withouthotair.com/

You can download his book for free.




Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2009, 10:44:03 AM »
Lou...

Are you speaking of oil shale deposits in the Rockies?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2009, 10:49:50 AM »
Sean,

     If you are interesting in the science and economics behind sustainable energy you should visit this site by David MacKay who published a book called "Sustainable Energy - without the hot air."  He does a good job of quantifying the costs in the UK.

http://www.withouthotair.com/

You can download his book for free.





Craig

I have been reading this book for the past month or so!
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2009, 10:50:08 AM »
Lou...

Sorry...I see that you were talking about oil shale...

As someone that lives and recreates in the Rockies, I am not too happy that anyone would consider oil shale...for several reasons.  It is energy intensive to extract. It requires a lot of water to extract...and we do not have much water out here. It would create some major environmental problems.

Have you ever been fishing out here?  Do you know about the long, hard work we have done out here over the last 40 years to improve habitat so we can have a quality fishery?  For example...hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent cleaning up 100 year old mining waste on the Clark Fork river alone...

There are cheaper and cleaner alternatives to oil shale Lou...and I for one want to see cheaper and cleaner energy. ;D
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2009, 11:00:59 AM »
The is much more oil shale in Canada and is to get out than the Rockies.

Craig S,

    What are these cheaper and cleaner alternatives to oil shale?

Sean,

   What do you think of the book so far?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 11:04:00 AM by Craig Edgmand »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2009, 12:00:51 PM »

They use weather balloons, satellites...etc, to measure surface temps....they also look at ocean water temps, ice core samples, they measure what's going on in the atmosphere, ice sheet thickness, sea levels, etc. etc....




Are scientific measuring devices more accurate today then they were 25, 50, 100, 200 years ago?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2009, 12:47:50 PM »
Craig E...

Cheaper and cleaner alternatives to oil shale?  Well, for starters, oil and gas from the ground.  Biofuels....wind...solar.....

I am no fan of extractive type of industries...yes, I understand how much we rely upon them everyday...still, does not mean I have to be willing to give them free rein to rape and pillage the land and water....there are countless examples of the harm they have done right here in Montana that will cost generations billions to clean up...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2009, 01:16:10 PM »
These are economic and moral arguments. Transition costs from fossil fuels to renewables are huge. The only way to get there is to raise the cost of, or outlaw fossil fuels. They had a better chance of success when gas was $4.00 a gallon. Not so much now. The current financial crisis is good cover and that is why the forward press is on to do this quickly. Get it done before science can paint a different picture or before we discover the benefits of a slightly warmer climate.
There are people of good intentions on both sides of the science. However, there are people that want to take over. What better way to do so than to control what energy is used, how much of it is used, how to allocate it's distribution, and who pays what price.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2009, 01:26:31 PM »
Jeff...

"What better way to do so than to control what energy is used, how much of it is used, how to allocate it's distribution, and who pays what price."


That is the current model used by the big 6 oil companies...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Climate change and sea level
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2009, 01:30:40 PM »
Jeff...

"What better way to do so than to control what energy is used, how much of it is used, how to allocate it's distribution, and who pays what price."


That is the current model used by the big 6 oil companies...


...and every alternative energy source that shows up in the future. Whether it be wind, solar, nuclear...whatever, it will be controlled by big corporations with an appetite for revenue.

Do you think someone is going to invest millions, maybe even billions into alternative energy sources and not be expecting a large profit for doing so?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017