Burnham and Berrow 2020 Open - course layout WIP

[Ben Stephens]

Hi GCA,

This is one for Adrian, James and Sean as it is their 'beloved' B + B. Here is the 'proposed' initial layout below, i am sure more will follow.

I have eliminated the existing 1st and 18th (I don't think this will be popular) to create new holes which will enable stands to fit around the site. I have also included the 4th and 5th holes of the Channel course. This has created a monster!



I have reservations about spectator movement - ideally it is better more compact from a movement and security point of view. It is difficult to put a clubhouse centrally as there is very little room.

Your comments would be appreciated

Fire away

Cheers

Ben

[Philippe Binette]

Although I like the exercise, even if I don't know if it works on the ground... (it could always work, just move more dirt), I must say something:

If it was about fixing 1 or 2 holes to bring the Open to a course... then it's OK, put if you have to tear up a course to hold the Open on it... might as well built a great new course.

You might say history of the club will help bring the Open there... but the close relationship between a golf course, a club and a town in Scotland particularly and England, is something that is worth more than one week of championship golf.

Another thing... the day the Open championship is solely about corporate tents and spectator movement, we're in trouble...  (think the Ryder Cup or PGA Championship)

[Ben Stephens]

This was the hardest of all courses to work out whether it could hold an Open so far as there is more land available. Here is a sketch of a 36 hole layout.

The Open could be held on a composite course with holes closest to the clubhouse. I have numbered the layout with a boundary in the middle. It is possible to have an 18 hole outer and inner loop that could be used in winter etc.

enjoy!

[Sean_A]

Hi GCA,

This is one for Adrian, James and Sean as it is their 'beloved' B + B. Here is the 'proposed' initial layout below, i am sure more will follow.

I have eliminated the existing 1st and 18th (I don't think this will be popular) to create new holes which will enable stands to fit around the site. I have also included the 4th and 5th holes of the Channel course. This has created a monster!



I have reservations about spectator movement - ideally it is better more compact from a movement and security point of view. It is difficult to put a clubhouse centrally as there is very little room.

Your comments would be appreciated

Fire away

Cheers

Ben

Ben

I know you are just kicking about with ideas, but I am not seeing this B&B deal ideal.

1. The practice ground is divorced from the house.
2. Instead of creating a few drivable par 4s (one element I think is lacking today) you have created monster holes galore.
3. You have the tented village at the far end of the course standing on significant and protected dunes - no go. 
4. You recreated Majuba on 17 which is pretty cool idea, but that is a 240 yard all carry blind shot over a Majuba into what is often a serious wind.  I can't think of anybody who would think this a good hole.
5. There are some LONG walks between green and tee.
6. I hate that the legger left 18th is now straight.
7. I don't think the setting of the house would be nearly as nice.
8. I believe you have gone off property for the back tees on #1.
9. Alternative hole looks like it plays to the current 5th.  Coming at that hole from the beach side is nuts as the green hugs the dune so the shot would be blind and have hardly any place to land.

I do like the way back tees for your #9 (#7 today).
 

So far as the 36 idea - no chance.  There is a spine of protected dunes running through the course between what is essentially the front and back nine.  But I will say many of those holes you are proposing would be rollercoasters!  If there was any possibility for a complete rebuild I would hate the idea of designing for 36 or for an Open for that matter.  I always think it is best to concentrate on as good an 18 as you can get (and this one could be a doozy), but still be walkable then see what happens for an extra 9, 18 or par 3 course. 

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Sean,

Thanks for letting me know all these issues - I have drawn this one up 'blind' I have never played B+B. In regard to your comments

1. I have moved practice ground to where the tented village is shown alongside the 18th

2. It would be nice to shorten one or two of the par 4's so that it could be driveable (short par 4s are prob my favourite type of hole!)

3. Cheers this is similar to Pyle and Kenfig.
 
4. The Open are for the best golfers in the world and sometimes there is a requirement for more difficulty to split the best and weaker players.

5. I know its not ideal but maybe on some of the long walks the hole could be shortened to driveable par 4s?

6. Where would the grandsatnd go on the left and rear? One option could be a large grandstand on the right - and move the first tee to part of the practice ground - woyuld that be a blind shot?

7. Ok I will take your word for the location of the clubhouse

8. Its hard to see where the actual course boundary is - I tried to get it off James!!

9. Alternative hole 'bombed out'

This sketch has proved that there is still room at B+B to extend the course and it would be useful to know which holes are 'crappy' and which ones are ok + awesome etc.

Cheers

Ben


Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Hi GCA,

This is one for Adrian, James and Sean as it is their 'beloved' B + B. Here is the 'proposed' initial layout below, i am sure more will follow.

I have eliminated the existing 1st and 18th (I don't think this will be popular) to create new holes which will enable stands to fit around the site. I have also included the 4th and 5th holes of the Channel course. This has created a monster!



I have reservations about spectator movement - ideally it is better more compact from a movement and security point of view. It is difficult to put a clubhouse centrally as there is very little room.

Your comments would be appreciated

Fire away

Cheers

Ben

Ben- I am going to post before I read the others posts. This does not really work. Firstly there is no real need to move 1 & 18 as you have.
You have ommitted a great 9th hole the par 3 at the end and your 11th wont work on that angle. The following holes that you have extended my comments are: 2 is not so good on that angle better left. 3 with the tee that side is only an iron and I would have thought shorter than where it is now. 4 can't be extended to 560, the tee at 510 is on top a dune, huge work to recreate that dunescape to put the tee back. At your 7th (nrm 5th) this tee could go back to 190, your 8th works fine although not if you bring the channel course is play, ie just a back tee would be ok, your 9th could get up to 485 if you used the old 7th tee pre 76 and go back a bit, your 10th is only 510 never would you get that 610, next is a no no, your 12th (nrm 11th) is probably better moving the tee left but at the next the fairway angle is wrong so thats a hard one to extend, at your 14th (nrm 13th) I dont think you can go back to where you have it, the land falls away and the key to the hole is driving over the path/ridge. At your 15th (nrm 14th) you cant play that angle, you could extend back on the current line though. Your 16th (nrm 15th) does have a 480 yard tee, again its a hole that you need to get over the ridge, the 17th is unextendable as well. I think its better to try and change as little as possible 'doctoring' for the open, extending holes, rebunkering, perhaps resiting a green are acceptableish!! Nice try though Ben.

My Open Course
The 1st tee would need moving to accomadate the stands, and the hole would probably lose 80 yards, tee up ontop the dune. 305 yard par 4,
2nd hole as is no change 435 yards
3rd hole new green behind present green on the ledge 410 yards
4th hole as is no change, save heavy bunkering to test the tee shot. 510
5th hole tee extended back to 190 yards.
6th hole tee extended back into the channel course 475 yards
7th hole tee extended back on the old line (straighter) 490 yards
8th hole as is, save heavy bunkering 510
9th hole as is 170
10th hole, new back tee on same line 40 yards back 400 yards
11th hole, new tee on right 460 yards
12th hole as is 390, bunkers in fairway
13th hole as is
14th hole extend tee same line 215 yards
15th hole restore old tee 480 yards
16th hole as is 330 yards
17th hole as is 205 yards
18th hole as is 440 yards
That must be close to 7000 yards, perhaps keep 8 as 4,  par 70

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Thanks for letting me know all these issues - I have drawn this one up 'blind' I have never played B+B. In regard to your comments

1. I have moved practice ground to where the tented village is shown alongside the 18th

2. It would be nice to shorten one or two of the par 4's so that it could be driveable (short par 4s are prob my favourite type of hole!)

3. Cheers this is similar to Pyle and Kenfig.
 
4. The Open are for the best golfers in the world and sometimes there is a requirement for more difficulty to split the best and weaker players.

5. I know its not ideal but maybe on some of the long walks the hole could be shortened to driveable par 4s?

6. Where would the grandsatnd go on the left and rear? One option could be a large grandstand on the right - and move the first tee to part of the practice ground - woyuld that be a blind shot?

7. Ok I will take your word for the location of the clubhouse

8. Its hard to see where the actual course boundary is - I tried to get it off James!!

9. Alternative hole 'bombed out'

This sketch has proved that there is still room at B+B to extend the course and it would be useful to know which holes are 'crappy' and which ones are ok + awesome etc.

Cheers

Ben


Ciao

Ben

For drivable par 4s I would suggest keeping the 3rd as it is now with the tee on top of Majuba.  You could also stick a lower left tee off the slopes of Majuba.  This teeing area is presently used for the 17th, but it was the old medal tee for #3 not so long ago until health and safety kicked in and it was deemed dangerous for those on the path to the beach.  This creates a blind drive, but it isn't insurmountable for the pros as they carry the ball so far.  


Here is the Majuba you are recreating, but the hill has been topped to place tees on it and the green back in the old days was some 30 yards short of the present green in a wee dell.  Come to think of it, yes, create that old new tee and let the pros suffer!  But that tee could hardly be used any other time.


Ciao

[Sean_A]

Adrian

On your plan I would make the 4th and 13th par 4s just as they are.  The 8th is the only par 5 which can extend back if the right tee is used and that can go back as far as is reasonable that driving over the water isn't impossible.

I seriously disagree about the 7th.  The line of the hole is vastly improved by creating the dogleg left.   

You can't go back 40 yards for the 10th.  That isn't B&B land. I can see what Ben is trying to do, but his legger right over the dunes means a layup for the pros and the green is just that much too far to have a go at.

I disagree about #14.  The hole would be a ball breaker from 215.  Its fine at 190ish from the back. 

The tee for #15 was restored, but it isn't 480 yards - something around 440-450.

I wouldn't mind seeing the 17th green extended back and with the back portion angled to the right.  It is still a drivable hole for the big boys, but more hole locations can be used.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian

On your plan I would make the 4th and 13th par 4s just as they are.  The 8th is the only par 5 which can extend back if the right tee is used and that can go back as far as is reasonable that driving over the water isn't impossible.

I seriously disagree about the 7th.  The line of the hole is vastly improved by creating the dogleg left.   

You can't go back 40 yards for the 10th.  That isn't B&B land. I can see what Ben is trying to do, but his legger right over the dunes means a layup for the pros and the green is just that much too far to have a go at.

I disagree about #14.  The hole would be a ball breaker from 215.  Its fine at 190ish from the back. 

The tee for #15 was restored, but it isn't 480 yards - something around 440-450.

I wouldn't mind seeing the 17th green extended back and with the back portion angled to the right.  It is still a drivable hole for the big boys, but more hole locations can be used.

Ciao

Sean, you will be losing serious length off my course with some of those changes, so B&B would be too short. 7 off the old line was good, its a tougher drive, probably not so pretty though, it would make the approach 50 yards longer for the pro's... remember we are talking about an Open course not a normal members layout. You are right about 8, it can be extended as much as is practical to keep the water out of play. I am sure they could go back the 40 yards at 10 (if they could buy the land). I think 190 at 14th is a tough hole but if its 190 as a norma medal tee then its ok for the pro's at 215... remember we are talking about a set of Open tees and the ability to extend B&B to be a hard course. The tee is there at 480, I have played off it, its abandoned now but still flat. This tee could go back to nearly 500 although it would be hard to get it over that ridge. I disagree about 17 I think thats one of most perfect holes.
Burnham has the room for stands and is good for viweing, the practice ground is good and located nicely to the clubhouse, the channel course would be good for the tented village and extras. As you mentioned in a previous thread the very worst is the bottle neck into the course. The only way would be a new road into Burnham from the Weston side, if that happened I think if the club wanted the Open they'd get it, lots of the right things are there, big airport a few miles away, the city of bristol, great motorway links, nearby Weston has lots of accomadation, the course could probably get to 7000 yards, and has a lot of great holes and not too many dull ones.

[Ben Stephens]

Sean,

The Majuba - Cor blimey its that high! The current 11th at RCD is very high as well.

The holes on the far end - the dunes are protected land. I suspect it would be out of bounds for spectators as well as a tented village. On that basis I would suspect that the Open organisers will rule out the far holes from competition play and use the Channel hole areas for Open Championship standard holes.

My initial suggestion after comments would be the 1st and 18th are retained a large tall grandstand slightly higher than normal! behind the dunes on the current driving range.

The hole order would be based on my first sketch holes numbering

1 (1) current hole 1
2 (new hole on channel course northwards)
3 (new hole on channel course northwards)
4 (new hole on channel course southwards)
5 (new hole on channel course southwards)
6 (2) current hole 2
7 (3) current hole 3
8 (4) current hole 4
9 (5) existing Channel hole 4

10 (6) existing Channel hole 5
11 (7) existing hole 5
12 (8 ) existing hole 6
13 (9) existing hole 7
14 (14) existing hole 13
15 (15) existing hole 14
16 (16) existing hole 15
17 (17) existing hole 17
18 (18) existing hole 18

This proves that taking the far holes around the dunes can be taken out of play during championship to prevent spectators walking across protected area

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ben- Forget the channel course that land just is not good enough and there is no way for a 36 at the moment (in another 20 years there may be enough land for another 9 hole loop as the land is currently a marsh but getting drier), the dunes between current 7/8/9/10/11/12 have some flats in there and pathways too. The channel 6th would be a great area for hospitality and the rest of the course has plenty of pockets for food tents etc; the only areas where spectator difficulty would occur would be 3 and 16 and 1 and 18. You could run a hole up the practice ground to the 1st green, but in the scheme you could not really sacrifice the practice area land, I think a better solution would be to sacrifice length at 1 and play off the dune at the back of the pro shop.

[James Boon]

Ben,

I started writing an e-mail to you earlier this morning but had to get to work before I sent it. I was going to warn you about this as a subject but hey here goes...

What this really brings home for me is that these exercises are great fun, but if you start making drastic changes, its very difficlut to do so just from aerial photos on google! And you get all the locals up in arms 

Here are my ideas, often similar to Adrian's but I did write most of them this morning before you had started the thread...

1. 370 yard par 4
Pretty much as is. Maybe play it from a slightly forward tee to allow for a small grandstand behind the tee? I like it as a bunkerless opener but maybe a few would be added to toughen it up, probably around the pinchpoint in the fairway about 300 yards or so from the tee.

2. 440 yard par 4
New back tee behind the 1st green maybe, but I've never wandered up there to have a look to see what the angle is like.

3. 390 yard par 4 (430 yard par 4 option)
The tee for 3 is on a prominant mound, which I think used to be the Majuba hole, which it shares with 17? I think the lower left (as you look on google) could be used as the back tee for 3 (currently yellow for 17) while the upper right could be used for 17 (currently yellow for 3), pretty much switching them over and adding 10 or 20 yards to each. You could rebuild a new green up behind the existing to add some yards?

4. 520 yard par 5
I have to admit that I didn't like this hole at first but its growing on me. A more drastic option would be to come down the 6th on the channel nine through the dunes, but may struggle to get the length and I think I'd prefer it as is, so perhaps some bunkering down the left of the fairway? Mayb be able to just add a couple of yards to the back tee but as Adrian says woyuld be very tricky.

5. 180 yard par 3
Dont touch this hole! Maybe a slight lengthening of 20 yards or so?

6. 460 yard par 4
Could be lengthened with a new tee to the left of 5. This would possibly be in the way for the drives on 5 on the channel but if only used for the open, not a problem. Some fairway bunkering and maybe a few greenside ones as well as its fairly open, but there is a large swale short right? My favourite bunker is short left of the green, not the sand one though, the brick pill box!

7. 470 yard par 4
This is were it could be argued that it starts getting a bit flat and dull. There are dunes up the left but the fairway is all pretty flat. Maybe a new back tee right of the existing tees and a new green built up in the dunes a little where the 8th yellow tees are?

8.  550 yards par 5
Same as 7, this is flat with dunes up right, but the 8th green is already built into the dunes. There has been some new fairway bunkering here but I've not seen it myself yet? Plenty of room to right of ditch to push the tee back to say 550?

9. 170 yard par 3
Not much room for change here, and I wouldn't want to anyway.

10. 400 yard par 4
Drive blind over the big dune (Ben, check google earth back a few years and you can see another old pill box which has now gone!) Not much room to push the tee back. Could maybe push the green back by moving all the tees for 11 right (left as you look on google) into the dunes.

11. 480 yard par 4
Not a great hole so happy to change it. Push the tees right back into the dunes to give it a championship tee around 480 yards?

12. 430 yard par 4
Push tees back a bit as angle into 11 green will have changed due to tees in dunes. Great green site next to the church that is mostly hidden from view as the dunes have surrounded it, so you only see the spire from a distance. (Ben, the holes here used to run the other side of the church but that was tricky on sundays so was changed some years ago...)

13. 530 yard par 5 (570 yard par 5 option)
Tricky as a path to the beach is just on a good drive distance. Not sure if tee could be pushed back as it built up a bit and falls away behind the tee but may be possible? Drastic option: push the green back and right (left as you look at it on google) to make a bit of a puchbowl green underneath a big dune, and help lengthen the hole, but this would be a blind approach.

14. 220 yard par 3
Plenty of room to push the tee back, but its already a tough green to hit, raised up on all side. Leave it but push tee back a bit?

15. 480 yard par 4.
Last time I was there I noticed a new / rebuilt tee, to the right and down a bit of the 14th green as you look on google. This is probably the 480 yard tee Adrian mentions.

16. 360 yard par 4 (390 yard par 4 option)
Plenty of room to push tee back and possibly rebuild the green back and right a bit but there is something I like about the current mad two tier green.

17. 220 yard par 3
As with the other par 3s I wouldn't touch it, apart from pushing the tee back as suggested.

18. 445 yard par 4
Wouldn't want to change this hole other than maybe tweak the greenside bunkering a bit?

7,115 yard par 71 (with potentially more drastic option for relocating a few greens at 7,265 yards)

I'd build one huge grandstand to left of clubouse over the top of the chipping green, and running virtually the full length of the range. This would give a great view of players teeing off on 1 and coming home on 18 (also small one behind first tee). I'd use the range for the tented village and use the fairway for the first on the channel as the range with a new large practice tee, and the channel ninth as the chipping green. Plenty of room amongst channel holes for further tented village stuff. And if you could get rid of those damn caravans to the south you would have loads of room!

Not that Burnham is likley to host an Open but if the Captain came up to me and asked for a feasibility study, thats were I'd start...

These are great fun Ben, just try and make sure people realise how HYPOTHETICAL these are before you really send someone of on one...

I just had to respond to this one but I must get back to work!!!

Cheers,

James

[Adrian_Stiff]

We are pretty similar on this James.

[James Boon]

We are pretty similar on this James.

Adrian,

Yep! Part of me thinks its possible, a long shot but possible, for all the reasons you list, but another part of me just can't see it happening. Though we obviously all know it well, I don't think Burnham is well known enough generally, as the Open is very big these days and they wouldn't want people saying "Burnham and where?"

Cheers,

James

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yes an absolute long shot, but if they did put that road in those chances would zoom. They may not know Burnham and Berrow, but if they announced the Open Championship for X years time the years leading up to it, it would get plenty of press. The Boys Championship goes there in 2011. It would be nice to see the Amateur championship go to B&B however that championship goes to courses in pairs now, so thats probably off the radar now.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

On your plan I would make the 4th and 13th par 4s just as they are.  The 8th is the only par 5 which can extend back if the right tee is used and that can go back as far as is reasonable that driving over the water isn't impossible.

I seriously disagree about the 7th.  The line of the hole is vastly improved by creating the dogleg left.   

You can't go back 40 yards for the 10th.  That isn't B&B land. I can see what Ben is trying to do, but his legger right over the dunes means a layup for the pros and the green is just that much too far to have a go at.

I disagree about #14.  The hole would be a ball breaker from 215.  Its fine at 190ish from the back. 

The tee for #15 was restored, but it isn't 480 yards - something around 440-450.

I wouldn't mind seeing the 17th green extended back and with the back portion angled to the right.  It is still a drivable hole for the big boys, but more hole locations can be used.

Ciao

Sean, you will be losing serious length off my course with some of those changes, so B&B would be too short. 7 off the old line was good, its a tougher drive, probably not so pretty though, it would make the approach 50 yards longer for the pro's... remember we are talking about an Open course not a normal members layout. You are right about 8, it can be extended as much as is practical to keep the water out of play. I am sure they could go back the 40 yards at 10 (if they could buy the land). I think 190 at 14th is a tough hole but if its 190 as a norma medal tee then its ok for the pro's at 215... remember we are talking about a set of Open tees and the ability to extend B&B to be a hard course. The tee is there at 480, I have played off it, its abandoned now but still flat. This tee could go back to nearly 500 although it would be hard to get it over that ridge. I disagree about 17 I think thats one of most perfect holes.
Burnham has the room for stands and is good for viweing, the practice ground is good and located nicely to the clubhouse, the channel course would be good for the tented village and extras. As you mentioned in a previous thread the very worst is the bottle neck into the course. The only way would be a new road into Burnham from the Weston side, if that happened I think if the club wanted the Open they'd get it, lots of the right things are there, big airport a few miles away, the city of bristol, great motorway links, nearby Weston has lots of accomadation, the course could probably get to 7000 yards, and has a lot of great holes and not too many dull ones.

Adrian

This is the aspect about Open talk I don't like.  Building tees for extra length to be used 4 games in 10 years.  Its madness!  That said, even with the shortening of the 1st, 10th and 14th, I reckon my ideas bring the course to over 7100 yards (its 6850 now).  To be honest, this is neither here nor there for the big boys so I don't much see the point.  Though I really do like the idea of a big Majuba and lengthened tees for 6-8 because they are completely out of the way for normal play.  Heck,  6, 7 and 14 wouldn't even be in view from today's tees. 

We will have to agree to disagree concerning #6.  I think the new drive is (even if you go back 50 yards) is far more difficult than the old drive.  The landing zone is not well defined and there are bushes where the fairway turns which are reachable.  In the old days everybody went straight left (even though that was rough, but nothing to speak of) and it was driver/wedge even for me.  if you straightened that hole out it would be the same thing for the big boys even at 460 yards. 

BTW - you are right about #15.  I didn't realize the hole was currently about 440 from the current back tee (even though this is an easier drive because you get to see where you are going).  The restored old tee is probably 480ish and it sits right on the boundary fence with the housing.  They will have to be careful when they use that thing because often times players may not be able to drive over the dune.  I reckon it must be a 250ish carry from back there.

James

Bite your tongue!  All golf doesn't need to be in the dunes.  The 7th is a brilliant hole which uses the natural contours as well as any hole I have ever seen.  I also really like the 11th.  Both provide excellent contrast to the holes in the dunes plus the magnificent grade level green for #11 is one of my all-time favourites. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean we may be getting mixed up with 6 and 7.
6 I am suggesting just moving the tee back say 30 yards into the Channel course.
7 I am suggesting going back on the line this hole used to play (pre 76), from there with the old 6th gone this could be a 490 yarder...not so pretty a drive but perhaps creating a tougher approach.

I really like 11, but I can't find much fondness for 7, its often even in the summer damp, the water table must be very close, I think a better 7th could perhaps be found by going right, in which case the current tees would be used and a new green site found.

Almost everyone that I know that likes B&B does not like 7 and probably find the 7 to 11 loop the dull bit or the ones to pick fault with. 9 is exceptional, there is not much architectural to dislike about 8, probably conditioning again. I can see the dislike for the blind 10th tee shot, I like it though.

[Sean_A]

Sean we may be getting mixed up with 6 and 7.
6 I am suggesting just moving the tee back say 30 yards into the Channel course.
7 I am suggesting going back on the line this hole used to play (pre 76), from there with the old 6th gone this could be a 490 yarder...not so pretty a drive but perhaps creating a tougher approach.

I really like 17, but I can't find much fondness for 7, its often even in the summer damp, the water table must be very close, I think a better 7th could perhaps be found by going right, in which case the current tees would be used and a new green site found.

Almost everyone that I know that likes B&B does not like 7 and probably find the 7 to 11 loop the dull bit or the ones to pick fault with. 9 is exceptional, there is not much architectural to dislike about 8, probably conditioning again. I can see the dislike for the blind 10th tee shot, I like it though.

Adrian

There is currently talk of upgrading the water system which has the benefit of a new pumping system.  This will allow for the creek or as they call it rene (sp?) along 7 and 8 to be pumped which would really help the water table.  There is no question the water table here is very high.  Why the club hasn't capped these areas (and #16) with sand I don't know.  Its not like sand costs them money.  However, now there are some crazy flowers growing so they probably can't cap the 7th and 8th. 

I don't mind a back back tee for #7, but there is no way I would agree to changing the routing away from that spine which runs the length of the hole through the green.  If people don't like it its because they don't pay attention to how clever this hole is.  That spine with the solitary bunker under its wing is as clever as it gets.  The problem is folks are all looking at the white caps and they miss what goes in the troughs of the waves.  Besides, folks would do well to remember that dunes are a mixed blessing.  They look great, but they can also constrict play.  There is nothing wrong with leaving the dunes to play especially if the archie is clever in what he does and that certainly sums up the 7th for me.  It is probably my favourite hole on the course because there isn't another like it.  It reminds me a load of Rye. 

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Looks like I will have to play B + B soon before I could pass on any further comments or suggestions. Thanks for all your 'experienced' yet interesting comments. From your comments it is unlikely that any of the Channel course holes - I would say stick to the current layout.

The only other course I can think of that I know and support my suggestions is Hunstanton.

Cheers

Ben

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ben- Hunstanton will be interesting, its another of those almost good enough as an Open course scenarios.....

[James Boon]

James

Bite your tongue!  All golf doesn't need to be in the dunes.  The 7th is a brilliant hole which uses the natural contours as well as any hole I have ever seen.  I also really like the 11th.  Both provide excellent contrast to the holes in the dunes plus the magnificent grade level green for #11 is one of my all-time favourites. 

Ciao

Sean,

Perhaps you are right about 7? On reflection moving the green into the dunes a little more would be too much like the eighth green? I just don't love that hole as much as some of the others, but as with 11, I think its the drives that don't do it for me (the only hole I've ever had a ball plug through the green was on 7 fairway when it was a bit wet when every other hole seemed fine). I do actually like the green on 7 with the ridge running through, and the slope on the 11th is great. Not sure I could ever go as far as calling 7 my favourite, but on your recommendation, I'll play it with a more open mind next time!

Maybe we should collaborate on a My Home Course profile, so everyone else knows what the hell we are going on about? 

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

James

Bite your tongue!  All golf doesn't need to be in the dunes.  The 7th is a brilliant hole which uses the natural contours as well as any hole I have ever seen.  I also really like the 11th.  Both provide excellent contrast to the holes in the dunes plus the magnificent grade level green for #11 is one of my all-time favourites. 

Ciao

Sean,

Perhaps you are right about 7? On reflection moving the green into the dunes a little more would be too much like the eighth green? I just don't love that hole as much as some of the others, but as with 11, I think its the drives that don't do it for me (the only hole I've ever had a ball plug through the green was on 7 fairway when it was a bit wet when every other hole seemed fine). I do actually like the green on 7 with the ridge running through, and the slope on the 11th is great. Not sure I could ever go as far as calling 7 my favourite, but on your recommendation, I'll play it with a more open mind next time!

Maybe we should collaborate on a My Home Course profile, so everyone else knows what the hell we are going on about? 

Cheers,

James

James

I know I am in the extreme minority where #7 is concerned, but I really dig these seemingly innocuous features which really define holes very well. 

Concerning the 11th, I always liked the right tee better than the left tee because I think it brings the bunker and crap to the left more into play.  I like the hole especially how it contrasts with the dune holes. 

I am in the final stages of a My Home Course piece.  Just one more piece to the puzzle and Bob's yer uncle. 

Ciao 

[Ben Stephens]

Sean,

Look forward to you adding B+B to your home profile so that I have a much clearer idea of how the course works in this unusual landscape.

The spine through out hole 7 sounds interesting but if the tee was further left it would mean that the spine is easier to hit to deflect the ball to the left as opposed to being in the middle all the way.

Cheers

Ben

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Look forward to you adding B+B to your home profile so that I have a much clearer idea of how the course works in this unusual landscape.

The spine through out hole 7 sounds interesting but if the tee was further left it would mean that the spine is easier to hit to deflect the ball to the left as opposed to being in the middle all the way.

Cheers

Ben

Ben

No, I don't think pushing the tee further back and bit left harms the current use of the spine on #7.  Adrian was proposing going back to the old routing where the tee was much further right (this is also when the 6th was routed on what is now the first half of the 13th) which essentially creates a straight hole and to a large degree eliminates the impact of the ridge.  In fact, the club has cleared some crap away on the left side of the hole which makes it more tempting to try stay left of the bunker (if the pin is located on the left side of the green).  I was half thinking they may stick in another tee further back and left, but nothing materialised.  I suspect like many things, this all costs money and at the moment the club has a higher priority on trying to improve what it has.  A few tees and bunkers have already been stuck in for the upcoming Tillman and Brabazon. 

Ciao