The Valley Club of Montecito, updated (complete)

[David Stamm]

That's a FW bunker on #3 Valley Club, about 1/4 the size of #10 Pasa in all directions, and 1/10 as interesting.

#4 VC the bunkers are more in play, especially with the front pin. The hole is a great relief after the absolute ball-buster that is #3; which might be the toughest "unconverted"  Mackenzie par 4 on the West Coast.

Jon is correct, that is the fw bunker to the left of the fw on 3.


I would have to agree about 3. It is one of most difficult I've seen from Mack. Right up there with 11 at Pasa.  But it's also one of the best. 4 doesn't give you much time to breathe as 5 is also a difficult hole.

[Bill_McBride]

David,

Some years ago on GCA there was talk of OWNING a golf club. My wish was that of all the places on the planet I would covet, would be the Valley Club of Montecito.

A perfect place with the perfect climate.


And for the sartorially dissolute, they welcome shorts.


Bob

Freddy Couples is a member and it's great to see him out there in shorts playing with the guys, pushing a Sun Mountain three wheel cart.

[Patrick Kiser]

I just find the shape of the FW 3rd bunker to remind me of the "fishbone" greenside bunker of the 10th at Pasa.

I agree not as impressive. 

About the ring of bunkers on the 4th, can someone please hire the Oakmont boys and have them give it a go at midnight?  Those trees just don't seem to belong.

[Joshua Pettit]

About the ring of bunkers on the 4th, can someone please hire the Oakmont boys and have them give it a go at midnight?  Those trees just don't seem to belong.

Considering the fact that those Sycamores were there when MacKenzie first visited the property in 1928, and that he used them as a secondary means of a hazard for the hole, then I would submit that they DO belong.  However, the hole doesn't have quite the same look that it did originally in 1930.  But there are many other trees on the course (west side of Sheffield Drive) that I wouldn't mind seeing get cut down, because they aren't native to the property or the golf course.  

[Rich Goodale]

Speaking of trees, that distance cheater posted early on makes me think that you need to be either a n amateur dendrologist or a fully-qualified Tree Surgeon to get the right yardages.

[Bill_McBride]

Speaking of trees, that distance cheater posted early on makes me think that you need to be either a n amateur dendrologist or a fully-qualified Tree Surgeon to get the right yardages.

A guest is reputed to have said "You have to be a f*&%#ng arborist to play this course!"

There are also at least three trees marked on the yardage card that are NLE.

That guide used to be printed as part of the scorecard, but no more.  Now they have (sacrilegiously) pubished a yardage book.  Some of the older members are probably quite indignant.

[David Stamm]

Speaking of trees, that distance cheater posted early on makes me think that you need to be either a n amateur dendrologist or a fully-qualified Tree Surgeon to get the right yardages.

Rich, I actually liked using them and didn't have a problem with the distances.


Josh, thanks for posting that picture. I agree with you about the trees with that hole, hence the reason I posted that quote from Hunter. As for the West side trees, I didn't have a problem with them. I agree, a few of them could go, but I didn't mind them all that much. There is alot of width to the corridors from 1, 13, 15-18.

[Patrick Kiser]

About the ring of bunkers on the 4th, can someone please hire the Oakmont boys and have them give it a go at midnight?  Those trees just don't seem to belong.

Considering the fact that those Sycamores were there when MacKenzie first visited the property in 1928, and that he used them as a secondary means of a hazard for the hole, then I would submit that they DO belong.  However, the hole doesn't have quite the same look that it did in originally in 1930.  But there are many other trees on the course (west side of Sheffield Drive) that I wouldn't mind seeing get cut down, because they aren't native to the property or the golf course.  

Josh,

Wow!  I guess I'm quite surprised.  Thanks for sharing.  The bunkers seem like plenty enough defense for the green.  The trees feels like overkill.  Worse than having boulders I'd say.


David,

You wouldn't happen to have a ''before'' reference pic to share would you?  That would be worth seeing I think.

[David Stamm]

About the ring of bunkers on the 4th, can someone please hire the Oakmont boys and have them give it a go at midnight?  Those trees just don't seem to belong.

Considering the fact that those Sycamores were there when MacKenzie first visited the property in 1928, and that he used them as a secondary means of a hazard for the hole, then I would submit that they DO belong.  However, the hole doesn't have quite the same look that it did in originally in 1930.  But there are many other trees on the course (west side of Sheffield Drive) that I wouldn't mind seeing get cut down, because they aren't native to the property or the golf course.   

Josh,

Wow!  I guess I'm quite surprised.  Thanks for sharing.  The bunkers seem like plenty enough defense for the green.  The trees feels like overkill.  Worse than having boulders I'd say.


David,

You wouldn't happen to have a ''before'' reference pic to share would you?  That would be worth seeing I think.

No, only what you see here from Josh, which I'm glad he posted.



The trees really don't really come into play as much as you think. Remember, it's only a downhill pitch shot. Here's a few more pics.


From the tee



Looking back to the tee.

[Patrick Kiser]

Weird...

Josh's "before" pic wasn't loading on my BB.


Josh,

Even more surprising to me is how even back then those trees were sizeable.

It still appears they come into play more than I'd like from viewing the "after" pic from David.  Or maybe it's just the vantage point of the pic not doing justice.  Not sure.  Compare the "before" and "after" and to me it appears more open on the "before".  David's obviously working the photoshop again 

Here's the real test...

Start a thread titled "What's wrong with this hole ... or not" and post just the pic from David.  See what comes back.  I wouldn't be surprised if more than one responded about the trees.

[Patrick Kiser]

The trees really don't really come into play as much as you think. Remember, it's only a downhill pitch shot. Here's a few more pics.

Those extra frames certainly seem to indicate that.  I'm guessing the lens is playing tricks on me 

[John Mayhugh]

David,
A great reminder of why I love GCA.  The mixture of old and new photos along with quotes is fantastic.  Cannot wait to see more of the course.

[tlavin]

The sycamores in these photos look just as ghastly as those that litter the property in unfortunate locations at Riviera.  At Riv, some of the offending trees are propped up with metal bars that have sycamore camo paint.  Aargh. The trees mar an otherwise beautiful landscape, IMHO, and to me it doesn't matter if the trees were there when MacKenzie designed the course.  A mistake is a mistake; an old mistake is just older than a new mistake.  I'm gonna quit while I'm behind...

[David Stamm]

The sycamores in these photos look just as ghastly as those that litter the property in unfortunate locations at Riviera.  At Riv, some of the offending trees are propped up with metal bars that have sycamore camo paint.  Aargh. The trees mar an otherwise beautiful landscape, IMHO, and to me it doesn't matter if the trees were there when MacKenzie designed the course.  A mistake is a mistake; an old mistake is just older than a new mistake.  I'm gonna quit while I'm behind...

Terry, in what way did MacKenzie make a mistake?

[RJ_Daley]

Thanks to Wild Bill and "Murf" for one of my most fond memories on a special golf course... at KP 3 side trip.  I loved the par 3s and had a nice and unlikely birdie pitch from about 40 yards off the right of 17.  What a setting with CH in background.
Murf at 4tee...

'Wild Bill' makes the dreams come true...

always fun picking one out of the jar after a lucky/nice shot...

...shows up at all the best places...


I forget the whole story on the landslide hole.  It may be the only odd hole out...

[Charlie Goerges]

"Welcome Golf Club Atlas Golfers...
Even the Raters"

I love it.

[Lou_Duran]

Great piece David Stamm.  Valley Club is a wonderful place.  You are very fortunate to have such good friends.

Are some of the bunkers as flat/shallow and of smaller scale as the pictures suggest?  How is the bunkering in comparison to the other MacKenzie courses you've played (e.g. CPC and Pasatiempo)?  Are the green complexes also a bit more subdued? 

[James Bennett]

RJ Daley

the landslide hole?  I assume that is #10.  It is the hole with the most movement (sorry, no pun intended) at Valley Club.  Big downhill/sidehill slope from the tee to the shot point, then a second down to the green at the general level of the course.

The crew were doing work up left of the shot-point when I was there in March 2007.  Can't recall what they were doing - perhaps just clearing undergrowth (it was a lost ball area up there for sure).

I don't recall any more either.

James B

[David Stamm]

Lou, thanks. To answer your questions, the greens are more subdued, but then again they are also smaller in general than either CPC or Pasatiempo. The bunkers are also smaller and not quite as deep. I felt that they fit the course.

[David Stamm]

So we now head back towards the hill and the brilliant use of it that really comes into play on the 8th. In reality, the hill is 2 small hills, or a larger one that is split in two, depending on how you look at it. Pay special attention to how MacKenzie and Hunter routed the holes around this simple feature.  We start with the 452 yd par 4 7th.


"A first class architect attempts to give the impression that everything has been done by nature and nothing by himself, where as a contractor tries to make as big a splash as possible and impress committees with the amount of labor and material he has put into the job."- Alister MacKenzie



The tee shot



A little closer



The approach





The green from the 5th fw



Looking back down the fw..



From the 8th tee




We now come to the 152 yd par 3 8th, where we play from "hill to hill" with the split mentioned earlier dividing us on the tee from the green.

The tee




Closer



An vintage photo..



The green from the front



From behind



From the side





We now leave the hill top and turn for Picay Creek. The 431 yd par 4 9th.




The approach



Looking back



Greenside



From behind the green




The 10th hole this day was played a par 4, as the club is experimenting to see if it works. It really works better as a par 5. The hole is 478, but plays as long as 485 yds all the way back. This is also the hole that has been referred to by others as the "landslide" hole, as there was a landslide from the hill on the left and it slid across the fw. Rather than trying to move the earth, it was decided to incoporate it into the hole and it was grassed.



The tee shot..



The "slide"



From the top


Closer



The greensite



Looking back




From behind the green





The beautiful 177 yd par 3 11th.


"All artificial hazards should be made to fit into the ground as if placed there by nature. To accomplish this is a great art. Indeed, when it is really well done, it is- I think it may truly be said- a fine art, worthy of the hand of a gifted sculptor. They should have the appearance of being made with the same carelessness and abandon with which a brook tears down the banks which confine it, or the wind tosses about the sand of the dunes."- Robert Hunter


 



An old photo for comparison



Looking back



A photo from 1943 during the Victory Garden era and prior to Bell's restoration




We conclude part 2 with the 351 yd par 4 12th.

The tee shot




A little closer



The strategic bunker



The greensite



The green is amongst the smallest on the course, if not the smallest





We'll conclude this presentation in part 3 by crossing over Sheffield again over to the West side and finish the course as the sun sets.

[James Bennett]

David

is that bunker on #12 strategic (as stated), or heroic?  I'm not sure of the distance from the tee.  My suspicion is that it is the latter, for some.  I might just lay-up short of it for the best line in from the right.  You might go straight over it.

Re #11, one of the critical changes/restorations was the removal of a tree by Doak to return the hole to earlier values.  There was a long running discussion about this perhaps a year ago on GCA, including a different old and new photo.  It adds something to the story.

I look forward to the comments from others about #9 and the bunkers set into the rear hill behind the green, a ka #13 at Augusta and #13 at CPC.  Where is Wayne Morrison for a critical question when you need him?

The routing of holes 3 through 12, the triangulation of the three par 3's around the two hills, the incorporation of the refreshment area and the way that the abutting par4's come and go from these two hills is really worthy of study.  David, if you can, can you include the routing diagram (well a small portion therof) to emphasise this brilliance around the two hills.

Great work David.

James B

[Bill_McBride]

David

is that bunker on #12 strategic (as stated), or heroic?  I'm not sure of the distance from the tee.  My suspicion is that it is the latter, for some.  I might just lay-up short of it for the best line in from the right.  You might go straight over it.

Re #11, one of the critical changes/restorations was the removal of a tree by Doak to return the hole to earlier values.  There was a long running discussion about this perhaps a year ago on GCA, including a different old and new photo.  It adds something to the story.

I look forward to the comments from others about #9 and the bunkers set into the rear hill behind the green, a ka #13 at Augusta and #13 at CPC.  Where is Wayne Morrison for a critical question when you need him?

The routing of holes 3 through 12, the triangulation of the three par 3's around the two hills, the incorporation of the refreshment area and the way that the abutting par4's come and go from these two hills is really worthy of study.  David, if you can, can you include the routing diagram (well a small portion therof) to emphasise this brilliance around the two hills.

Great work David.

James B

James, I'll help David here.  This is the routing map from his initial post:



The first hill has the 3rd green backing up to it, the 4th and 8th tees on it, the 10th green and 11th tee next to it.  The second hill has the 8th green and 9th tee on it, and the 7th hole sort of bends around it.  There's only about 150 yards from the 8th tee to 8th green, so these hills are close together.

That's a lot of action for two smallish hills!

I haven't been to Royal Melbourne, but it does seem that there are similar hills there. 

With regard to the fairway bunker on #12, some say it's entirely new, but you can make it out on the routing plan above.  I don't think you can call it 'heroic,' as the carry is only about 190 from the middle of the one tee, but it's really irritated the ladies, who have a hard time carrying it and are forced to go left, bringing the trees and hill in the dogleg into play.  The best line off the tee is down the right side, so I think you'd have to call that bunker 'strategic.'

[David Stamm]

David

is that bunker on #12 strategic (as stated), or heroic?  I'm not sure of the distance from the tee.  My suspicion is that it is the latter, for some.  I might just lay-up short of it for the best line in from the right.  You might go straight over it.

Thanks James! As for the bunker, wouldn't the description you gave imply a strategic decision? I think with today's distances, however, the bunker can be carried easily (I played from the tips, hit 3 wood right over it and had a SW in from the right side), so it does change the nature of the hole. I would imagine when it was first designed it was a decision that had to be made. If memory serves, this was one the holes that was actually lengthened.

[James Bennett]

Bill

thanks for the re-post of the map.  Notice how the 3 par-3 tees are so close together, and the line of play triangulates away from each other.  It must be a fantastic spot to watch club match-play events mid-round.

Regarding the bunker on #12 - thanks for the distance.  My understanding of strategic was a bunker that the closer you played to the better the line of play.  By contrast, a heroic bunker combined the strategic aspects (in that a better line was obtained by playing near it) but that a significant benefit was obtained by carrying the heroic hazard.

Doak referred to Ausgusta #11, #12 and #13 as holes containing the penal/strategic/heroic holes. 
 - The greenside water hazard on #11 was strategic, as a ball played close to it  received a benefit whereas the bail out (to Larry Mize chip-in territory) was meant to involve a significant penealty in comparison.
 - Rae's creek in front of #12 was a penal hazard, as it can't be avoided.
 - Rae's creek on the shot point of #13 was a heroic hazard, as a significant benefit came from those who carried the creek, whilst conferring some benefit on those who played close to the creek (as it allows a better line of play for the second).

Of course, Rae's Creek than became the ultimate hazard for the approach to the green, as it embodies all three characteristics - a heroic outcome for the person who goes for the green in two, a strategic outcome for the person who lays up short but is close to the creek (as it provides an easier line of approach to the green compared to the person who lays up wide and right) and finally a penal test for the third shot (as the hazard must be carried).

Under that definition, I suggest the bunker on Valley Club #12 is a 'small h' heroic, not dissimilar in function to the bunker at CPC on the #2 lhs.  Perhaps not a bunker that some of us would brag about carrying, but still heroic in purpose.  I suspect I would be VERY happy to carry that bunker when it was played into a slight breeze.

James B

[Jon Spaulding]

Nice work sir.

I found #12 compelling in that the green opens up the longer and closer to the creek you dare to go. Play up the left and have perhaps a shorter shot, but you are effectively blind and the "Huckaby angles" are all screwed with respect to the running shot. I would love to spend some time there play it multiple ways, and crack the code. Thinking you could hit 3-5 different clubs off the tee and play out a very interesting golf hole with any one of them.

Unfortunately the bunker at the 190 mark, with today's equipment....is effectively meaningless. Having said that, kudos to the club for not bringing in Fazio to put bunkers between 220 and 280 on the right side adjacent to the creek .

#11 is one of the more stunning greensites I have seen on a short hole. My only gripe was that it was the 3rd short iron in a row into a par 3.