[Adrian_Stiff]

Ian - If you have a rounded tee and put 1 sprinkler in the middle that is most efficient.

Adrian,
  That tee would actually have to be VERY big to have a adaquate amount of water applied. Keep in mind, most sprinklers throw 90 feet...1 head WOULD NOT be efficient.....

We find a sprinkler in the middle of the tee most efficient, we just use different nozzles to regulate the throw, its obviously less expensive to install as well and you use 1 sprinkler as opposed 4. Perhaps this would not work so well outside of the UK, remember we only irrigate about 30-40 days per year, also we perhaps only have 4 greenkeepers per course so an extra few minutes per tee adds up. On a low budget course the savings would be significant, but if you just had 1 big squared tee there would be little in it. UK courses often have several small tees per hole, so the 72 tees x extra 2 minutes twice a week could add. You would be amazed how low our budgets are even at top 100 courses. If you have courses with higher budgets ofcourse the savings would not seem significant.

[Sean_A]

Do folks think that tees became more squared when archies started building elevated tees?  I mean to see elevated round tees is something quite horrific.  Personally, I most like the tees which flow from the greens so there really isn't a shape other than what the cutable area provides.  I know one way to hide the regimented look of elevated squared off tees is to allow grasses to invade the borders or get much longer so there is added texture.  Also, to be honest, the sight of a squared off tee at grade level is lovely, but it still cool if the short grass is connected with paths etc just to break up the too clean lines.  In a way, its not much different than trying to flow the fairway lines or hazard features into the greater landscape, but not enough attention is paid to these sorts of details especially on desert courses.

Ciao   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Regarding tee irrigation, one head won't do it, at least not in places like Texas and Kansas where I work.  We had to go back and add heads to tees on a recent project where the irrigation designer didn't get them to the upwind side of the tee. Into the wind they got exactly zero feet of throw, and were set about 10' inside the back edge of the tee.

Also, because of the walk up banks have so much traffic, you need to consider those getting water, too.

As to square, round, I say do what makes ya feel good.  But the square is a funny engineering think that doesn't fit with the general principles of following contours.  Kyle says there are no perfect circles in nature, but there are even fewer squares.

[Kyle Harris]

Regarding tee irrigation, one head won't do it, at least not in places like Texas and Kansas where I work.  We had to go back and add heads to tees on a recent project where the irrigation designer didn't get them to the upwind side of the tee. Into the wind they got exactly zero feet of throw, and were set about 10' inside the back edge of the tee.

Also, because of the walk up banks have so much traffic, you need to consider those getting water, too.

As to square, round, I say do what makes ya feel good.  But the square is a funny engineering think that doesn't fit with the general principles of following contours.  Kyle says there are no perfect circles in nature, but there are even fewer squares.

Jeff,

I know there are fewer squares. The problem is the tee box is defined as two club lengths behind the tee markers, which form a straight line.

As far as "natural to the game" goes... a square tee is a natural as it gets.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - I think the evolution came from initially making a flat platform. In the old times they were small as play was limited, as play grew they realised they needed to be bigger to accomadate tee movements and grass recovery, courses had no irrigation then, tees were rarely mown, squared made sense.
As I understood it rounded tees originated at roughly the time irrigation started to be used, roundish tees often in figure eight patterns, so two sprinklers, could be economically irrigated (less sprinkler heads) and triplex mowers (for economy) were much easier to use on rounded tees because your outer mow cut is 1 piece, with a square you are 4 piece.
When you maintain tees, a lot of time is taken moving the posts and markers off and then putting them back on after. They have even tried markers you can mow over, to some course budgets economy is paramount.
We have 87 tees on our course perhaps half have no markers on, they are twice as quick to mow.
BTW.. i prefer square

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony, of the courses I've seen from you list Camargo, Garden City, Double Eagle, Maidstone and Shoreacres have plenty of rounded tee boxes along with square boxes.

Thats even worse.....consistance please!

[Adrian_Stiff]

There is something about a squared tee that is natural to golf rather than natural to a landscape. They can look great and they can look ugly. Generally on flatter ground if they are too high they can look out of place.

Jeff- I accept that in many places single heads wont work. Tee irrigation in the UK probably is only on a third of our courses. 

[Mike Hendren]

...are the bees knees.

[Philippe Binette]

Square tees are hard to tie in on severely sloping sites...

as much

as free form tees look stupid on flattish sites.

[John Moore II]

Problem with one small head in the middle of the tee, what if the wind blows?  Then you have one head watering half the tee.  That's not efficient at all.

Greg--If this is directed at me, I agree for sure. On a windy site, a single head would not work just because of how the wind would blow the water around. Now maybe on a calm site...    

So, again, since we are debating here, how does a rounded off tee use water more effeciently than a square tee?

[Bill_McBride]

love em.

Me too.  Think "East Lake," some of the best I've seen.

HOWEVER.......I also really like it when the closely mown area surrounding a green ties into the adjacent teeing grounds so it's all cut about the same height.

Tom Doak's guys just did this on several of the holes at the Valley Club during the last phase of renovation.  It's very cool.  Here's an example from David Stamm's great Valley Club thread on page 1 today.  This is behind the first green, right of 14th green, and is the second tee.  All the closely mown grass flows together:

[Paul Carey]

Philippe,


You are right. 

I think this argument (not just here) about rectangular v. free form tees is pointless.  Depending on the site each has it's place.  Rectangular tees can look classic on some places and absolutely awful on other sites.

Square tees are hard to tie in on severely sloping sites...

as much

as free form tees look stupid on flattish sites.

[RDecker]

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but if we are trying to make golf courses look more natural and blend seemlessly with nature then the square doesn't make as much sense does it.  A square doesn't appear in nature much does it.  Also Anthony's argument would suggest that only the top flite clubs set the standards for the game... is that fair and reasonable?

[Rob Rigg]

Square tee boxes are much more attractive than "runway" tees in any setting.

Round tee boxes (ie - circle) look ridiculous.

So square beats round, but a more natural shape can look better than square depending on the environment.

However, for a tee box to work - it needs some sort of square available for the golfer and the idea of maintaining a round tee area or "weird" shape seems like a waste of effort when several square(ish) tee boxes on a hole can give you the ideal amount of teeing options without any wasted maintenance.

[Philippe Binette]

when people say square tees are not natural...

well guess what, no matter what the shape is, a perfectly mown surface surrounded by rough grass is not natural...

the most natural tee would be an extension of fairway with flattish spots on it were you put markers on...

very hard to do on severe sites... They did that at Sebonac I think...

[Anthony_Nysse]

"HOWEVER.......I also really like it when the closely mown area surrounding a green ties into the adjacent teeing grounds so it's all cut about the same height."

Bill,
  When we renovated last summer, Keith Foster incorperated this into 4 different teeing surrounds. I love the look. I first saw it when I worked at Friars Head. I don't know if it still is true, but #6 green "fell" into #7 tee and #13 green "fell" into #14 tee. A very cool look.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Ed Oden]

Personally, I like the look of square tees.  No doubt that is in part due to the fact I have played so much on courses that have them.  But also, except in an exceedingly natural setting (such as Ballyneal), I just like the contrast the clean lines of square tees provide against the less linear flow of the hole beyond.

For those that are not fans of square tees, would you feel differently if they were part of the architect's original design?  For example, weren't square tees the norm for Ross?  Wouldn't a restoration that didn't restore tee boxes to their original design be roundly criticized on this board?

One other point, square tees can just as easily be used to steer you astray as they can to point you in the right direction.  So it seems to me that square tees offer the architect a much greater opportunity at deception than on round tees. 

Ed

[Eric Smith]

I'm curious what members here think of the square tees themselves...Does the aesthetic justify the effort?

I like square tee boxes.  Forest Dunes in Michigan has razor sharp square tee boxes placed in wispy native grasses.  Aesthetically, they really stand out, as the course is known for its impeccably maintained conditions.  It's also really beautiful there.  And it's to be appreciated, because it is a fine golf course and the experience is first class...as if you're playing a high-caliber tour course on the day before the tournament.  The best conditioned course I've ever played. 


Forest Dunes in Roscommon, MI


Subscribing to Tom Paul's "Big World" Theory,
I find that round tee boxes look pretty good too.


Nicklaus' Ritz-Carlton Golf Club in Jupiter, FL

Both of these places charge somewhere between $150-$250 per round, so maintenance budgets would likely allow for the extra effort to maintain the tees as such.



If I had my druthers however, and was building a golf course on my farm, you'd be playing from tee boxes like the picture Bill McBride posted from David Stamm's Valley Club thread:



And I'd charge about $40 bucks to play it.  And my brother-in-law would run over it with the gang.

[Ryan Farrow]

love em.

Me too.  Think "East Lake," some of the best I've seen.

HOWEVER.......I also really like it when the closely mown area surrounding a green ties into the adjacent teeing grounds so it's all cut about the same height.

Tom Doak's guys just did this on several of the holes at the Valley Club during the last phase of renovation.  It's very cool.  Here's an example from David Stamm's great Valley Club thread on page 1 today.  This is behind the first green, right of 14th green, and is the second tee.  All the closely mown grass flows together:

Bill, are you sure "Doak's Guys" did this?

I was there are few years ago and saw "this". And from my understanding Doak just renovated the bunkers.  I showed up before they did the greens recently. Perhaps the suggested a few more areas like this?

If I were to guess, it was like this in Mackenzie's day since almost everything was cut at FW level back in the day? If anyone can confirm or reject that would help shed some light on the evolution of these guys at the Valley Club... at least.

[David Neveux]

Eric,

When i saw the title of this thread I thought, forest dunes....I'm down with square tees

[Ally Mcintosh]

Square tees are hard to tie in on severely sloping sites...

as much

as free form tees look stupid on flattish sites.

I like this response Philippe... Much as I connected with Sean's response as well...

Am I missing a trick with this thread?... Square tees a fad?.... I would have said it is the other way round... Almost every course of my youth had a square (or almost square) tee... To me, it was an introduction in the early nineties for oval raised tees, much associated with what is now disparagingly called "American-style" Design... Difference between the UK and the States it seems...

Whatever suits the site and the style though... But I suspect I will always veer towards square tees, possibly with rounded edges...

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

We didn't actually get on the mower and mow out those tees, but we did recommend it because that's how MacKenzie had them originally.  It was on an old drawing of the course I'd seen, and sure enough, it was on the aerial photos too.  But it took a while to convince the club to take out their square mowing and go back to the "big collar" approach pictured.

I saw some of the worst square tees I've ever seen on a brand-new course in China the other day [fortunately not a Schmidt-Curley design].  On one hole the long, rectangular tees were suspended by rock walls above a free-form waste bunker at the base.  Talk about clashing lines!

[Mark_Fine]

This topic has always been controversial and always will be.  It is as some have said, mostly about personal preference.  I happen to love the look of square tees (on some courses) and on others I don't.  Much has to do with how they are built and how they are positoned/laid out on the ground.  I'm not sure there is a right or wrong, HOWEVER, when doing restoration work, I think getting the teeing surfaces to emulate what the original architect designed and built is important. 

By the way, if is has not already been mentioned "tee boxes" originally had nothing to do with the shape of the tees.  Tee boxes were "the boxes" that held the sand that was used to build up the tee on which one would place their golf ball. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,

You are right of course, although, I wonder why it should be controversial.  Wouldn't tees fit under TePaul's "Big World" theory of gca and shouldn't we embrace the diversity that is out there for such a functional object?

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
Tees will ALWAYS be controversial - how many, how big, how are the shaped, where are they located, are they elevated or low profile, ..., on and on.  I don't think being controversial is a problem.  I do, however, think that tees can either add to the playing experience or take away from it not only in their aesthetic but in the many other ways discussed here as well.
Mark

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