[Mike_Cirba]

Some great and helpful (even the very critical ones) thoughts here so far...

Sean's idea of incorporating the range as a hazard has merit.

And as flawed as the fencing is as a design concept, we may be stuck there.  So, trying to look half-full, has anyone seen any interesting fencing?   What about a high wall with a giant mural painted by local artists protecting not the whole range but at least the stall areas?

I know the mesh fencing down at the new sports arena has huge pictures of stars of the team past and present right into the mesh.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Unfortunately, I think that area is going to need a netted fence.  The other problem (at least that I am hearing) is all the vandalism in the area.  We had that issue with a project in a bad area and had to forgo the whole driving range because of fear that the netting would not last long at all.  Just something to keep in mind. 
Mark

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Not sure I understand about how wide the fw might be - its the width of the range that needs attention!

I usually make the landing area of a driving range at least 500 feet wide.  I have built them 600 foot wide and at that width, very few if any range balls leave the intended target area.  In fact, it feels a little too big, so 550 feet wide works well for me.  Naturally, I try to curve the tee inward so that all shots are aimed at the middle or a little left of center.  90% + of shots will deflect less than 15 degrees of their intended line.  99% + will stay within 22.5 degrees of their intended line (my research only, others may have different opinions)  Thus,  curving the tee and providing targets to get balls nominally aimed the right direction from all parts of the tee is thought to help keep balls on the range.

Nothing beats width when it comes to keeping balls on the range.  If its narrower than about 450 feet wide at the landing area, a net is probably a solution to consider.  At the minimum width of 500 feet, I try to keep the centerlines of the adjacent fw at least another 150 from the edge, with more preferred.

When nets are required, the operative factor is the height a golf ball will attain. For most of us, that is about 75 feet, but the Tiger's of the world (what, about 0.00001%) can hit it as high as 110 feet in the air.  The apex comes at about 66% of total tee shot distance - a 240 yard drive hits 75 feet in the air at about 160 yards off the tee.  Nets come in 25 foot rolls, so your practical choices are 50, 75 and 100 feet high.  Most would probably ignore the few big (high) hitters and go with 75 feet to reduce the majority of shots leaving the range.

Don't know if that is the info you were looking for and its certainly not site specific.  Its probably worth what you paid for it!

[ChipRoyce]

If I remember correctly, the 2nd hole at Riveria runs down the left side of its driving range.

Also, had this at my old club in Austin TX. Great Hills has holes ( 8th and 9th) on either side of its range (nets protecting either side).

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, as well as the mathematical statistics.  

I'll provide more details shortly, but I think width is certainly going to be an issue to solve given the dimensions you've cited.

Mark,

Understood, which is why I think improved creative integration of the facility with the community might help.
 

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Sometimes 27 holes are a better option than 36 
Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,
Sometimes 27 holes are a better option than 36 
Mark

Mark,

There is PLENTY of room elsewhere on the property for an enyhanced range and recreational amentities, while still remaining 36 holes. 

However, the convenience of the location right at the edge of suburbia of this existing range is part of the dynamic to be considered.   

That location works for driving revenue at the discrete "sports facility", but ultimately works against driving golfers to the golf course(s), if you understand what I mean.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I am thinking more from a overall safety and expense/maintenance standpoint for the "entire" property.  Sometimes less is more if you know what I mean and will help get things done 
Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,
I am thinking more from a overall safety and expense/maintenance standpoint for the "entire" property.  Sometimes less is more if you know what I mean and will help get things done 
Mark

Mark,

So am I.   There are plenty of options. 

[Joe Bausch]

Mike,
I am thinking more from a overall safety and expense/maintenance standpoint for the "entire" property.  Sometimes less is more if you know what I mean and will help get things done 
Mark

IMHO, this is not a good idea to pursue at all (going down to 27 holes).

[Mike_Cirba]

[IMHO, this is not a good idea to pursue at all (going down to 27 holes).

Joe,

I don't think that's necessary at all.    There is PLENTY of space and creative ways to both maximize revenues and incorporate other "soft" goals.

[Andrew Mitchell]

...in theory and practice, how minimally-wide should the fairway of the hole be to mitigate problems, and how high should the mesh fence between the holes?  Minimally, how much "rough buffer" should exist between the edge of the driving range and the fairway?

Where have you seen this done really well, and where really poorly and why?

Thanks!

Driving ranges in or near courses aren't common in the UK but this one at The Manor near Bradford is a nightmare!  The driving range is the rectangle in the centre of the photograph and the 1st fairway runs along the bottom edge of it.  The trees alongside are not mature so do not offer any protection and the fence is clearly not high enough.  I've only played there once and when I got to the fairway I had to check at least a couple of dozen balls before I could find mine!  My opponent admitted he generally aimed down the 9th fairway (next one down in the photo) to avoid being unable to find his ball on the 1st fairway in the alloted five minutes

To make matters worse I had exactly the same problem when we came to play the 10th, which runs down the other side of the driving range. 

[Michael Powers]

Wow, impressive stats from that Brauer guy, better get your protractor out and have it surveyed again.

We had major problems with a narrow range at a facility I worked.  We did the best we could with the netting (be careful with your budget on this cause those babies need to be 1/3 of their height in the ground with concrete).  The best post-netting solution we had was we had the range monitored all day.  We had to pay the guy 10 bucks an hour to sit there, but properly managed it worked quite well.

[Mike_Cirba]

powpow,

Are you telling me that if one selects 100 foot netting, that we need 133 foot poles?   

What exactly did the Range Monitor do besides sit there?

[Mike_Cirba]

I think this is an interesting range as a model.



It has two levels, 50 stalls (25 heated), looks to be relatively cheap and modular to put together, and the overall dimensions (that include a grass practice area) are 90 yards wide by 218 yards deep.

I used to live near here and this range was always jam-packed.   

The fencing looks to be extra-high, and certainly sturdy enough.   If you scroll down near the body of this link you can see the height of the fencing.

http://www.madgolfergolfclub.com/range.htm

I've measured the dimensions and it seems that one could create a 40 stall (half heated) range at about 63.5 yards curvilenar wide and if one went about 250 in length, I think it might work.

In the example I'm thinking of, that would leave about 45-57 yards of remaining width to run a fairway along.

Of course, if a golf hole ran along it, one would have to determine how to play shots either hitting the fence, or ending up along it.

What local rule have others seen to cover such situations?   Rub of the green??

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

One of the better parallel driving ranges I have seen is at The Bridge on Long Island. The range provides absoluetly incredible views of the Great Peconic in the nearby distance and the range is set-up to be a very easy and quick walk to the 1st tee.

The balls from the range really don't get anywhere near the 1st hole and you have just a perfect combination of spectacular scenery, wide enough targets and hitting areas -- plus the practice green nearby alongside the 1st tee.

The flip side is that The Bridge is obviously private so the amount of activity is not akin to busy public courses.

[Kyle Harris]

I think this is an interesting range as a model.



It has two levels, 50 stalls (25 heated), looks to be relatively cheap and modular to put together, and the overall dimensions (that include a grass practice area) are 90 yards wide by 218 yards deep.

I used to live near here and this range was always jam-packed.   

The fencing looks to be extra-high, and certainly sturdy enough.   If you scroll down near the body of this link you can see the height of the fencing.

http://www.madgolfergolfclub.com/range.htm

I've measured the dimensions and it seems that one could create a 40 stall (half heated) range at about 63.5 yards curvilenar wide and if one went about 250 in length, I think it might work.

In the example I'm thinking of, that would leave about 45-57 yards of remaining width to run a fairway along.

Of course, if a golf hole ran along it, one would have to determine how to play shots either hitting the fence, or ending up along it.

What local rule have others seen to cover such situations?   Rub of the green??

You can ALMOST see my house in that image...

You CAN see my bar!

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

I hadn't the foggiest! 

But since you mentioned it, how does the netting work to prevent golf balls from soaring into your house and bar?   

I've been there and don't recall feeling horribly constricted hitting balls, do you?

[Tim Nugent]

Mike, the problem I have with inquiries such as this is that you shouldn't rely on "cookbook" solutions.  As you can see from the responses, only Jeff Brauer offered anything concrete.  Everything else was antidotal.  Unfortunately, Jeff forgot to add that the parameters he provided are just a starting point.  From this, they would have to be applied to the site specific conditions.  You failed to provide  basic site specific criteria that one would need to be able to adequetely analyse the area in question. 
Before you can determine if something is or isn't workable, you first need to know what questions to ask.  For instance, What direction does the tee face? What is the prevailing wind direction? What is the topography of the area?  What type of range, from field with yardage posts to simulated greens/bunkers/fairway, is being contemplated? Single or multiple level tees? Etc. 
One response was to contact a net supplier/installer.  While I'm sure he has lots of practical experience, he has a vested interest in selling the project.  Do you really expect him to say, "this isn't advisable?" One would hope he would but...
It seems someone knows the site you are referring to.  Why didn't you either provide that so one could could look it up and see what the options were or be include an aerial (like others did)?  There might even be a solution 'outside the box' that you are operating within.

[Bill_McBride]

Wilmette Golf Course outside Chicago first three holes play around an active driving range in a counter clockwise manner. The 1st hole has the driving range on the right, and only a 7ft chain link fence. The 3rd hole has a solid 40ft fence to block sliced shots into the fairway...which doesn't help much.

If nothing else, the huge # of balls on the fairways allows for a few extra shots of warmup before you really get into your round.

Pat, be careful if you're playing in a competition and hit those range balls back onto the driving range.  It's a 2 stroke penalty in medal play and loss of hole in match play.

I know this from personal experience because I had that called on me in a college match many years ago at La Cumbre in Santa Barbara, where the driving range is above the 9th fairway.  I stopped and hit a range ball back onto the driving range and my opponent sang out, "Sorry, that's a penalty, you lose the hole."   

My fault, gotta know those rules!

[Ronald Montesano]

As I recall, the first at Country Club of Buffalo has the range to the right of the first hole, the Old Town Club in Winston-Salem has it to the left of the 10th hole, and the Park Club (also in suburban Buffalo) has it between the 1st and 2nd holes.  Not that uncommon nor that "suck" a feature.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, the problem I have with inquiries such as this is that you shouldn't rely on "cookbook" solutions.  As you can see from the responses, only Jeff Brauer offered anything concrete.  Everything else was antidotal.  Unfortunately, Jeff forgot to add that the parameters he provided are just a starting point.  From this, they would have to be applied to the site specific conditions.  You failed to provide  basic site specific criteria that one would need to be able to adequetely analyse the area in question. 
Before you can determine if something is or isn't workable, you first need to know what questions to ask.  For instance, What direction does the tee face? What is the prevailing wind direction? What is the topography of the area?  What type of range, from field with yardage posts to simulated greens/bunkers/fairway, is being contemplated? Single or multiple level tees? Etc. 
One response was to contact a net supplier/installer.  While I'm sure he has lots of practical experience, he has a vested interest in selling the project.  Do you really expect him to say, "this isn't advisable?" One would hope he would but...
It seems someone knows the site you are referring to.  Why didn't you either provide that so one could could look it up and see what the options were or be include an aerial (like others did)?  There might even be a solution 'outside the box' that you are operating within.

Tim,

That's a fair criticism and I think you're right that there are a lot of variables to factor and a one-size solution does not fit all.

I have a number of reasons for not wanting to get too specific here, but in a nutshell, I'm looking at that feasibility of taking an existiing range with the following parameters;

Starting from 80 yards wide but quickly widening to 120 yards wide by 250 yards deep, with room to expand depth another 50 yards.

Flat, flat, flat

Not a windy area and a wind break in the form of mature trees long the non-golf course side.

A hard, fixed, unchangeable boundary on the non-golf course side.

24 stalls wide with a central area that's double decker for a total of 32 stalls in an 80 yard wide area.

A few very roughed out "target areas" at varying distances.

Artificial tees and mats.




I'm investigating the feasibility of moving the stalls "downrange" about 50 yards to a point where total width is 120 yards and then extending the range another 50 yards deep to keep total length around 250.

Given the example range at "MadGolfers" I used above, I'm estimating that I need about 62.5 yards of slightly curvilinear width to give me a total of 40 stalls in double decker fashion, which will increase capacity (and potential revenue) by 25%.   This also assumes that much like the "Madgolfers" model, the Netting boundaries are close tight to the edges of the range and are also of the super-high variety as seen in that example.   

The thought is then to use the remaining 55-60 yards of width to route (reclaim actually) a fairway along, which is actually part of a proposed restoration plan.     Some consideration would need to be made for local rules regarding balls striking the net and remaining in play (I'd assume today in most places it's simply rub of the green?), and it's not the most pretty option, but even today that range runs along the course and it's hardly a scenic asset.

The range stalls would face in the general direction of the tee of the proposed restored hole, although would be angled away.   The hole in question is a 540 yard par five that would reach the proposed range stalls about 150 yards from the green.   The hole is a semi-C par five turning slightly away from the range for the second and third shots.    The range would be to the left-side of the golf hole, and the hole would of course be to the left side of the range.

Thanks for your feedback.

[Tim Nugent]

Okay, based on that, here are some suggestions.

1) have you done a cost/benefit onthe double decker?  it will require you to increase the netting height.  Put it on the left side of tee area.

2) you're probably looking at large black metal poles and black netting.

3) the netting acts like a sail.  believe it or not, all those holes don't help alot.  although you state you have a natural treeline wind break on the other side of the range, those trees probably aren't as tall as the net would need to be.

4) if it's "flat,flat,flat" if you can make the drainage work, consider depressing the tee end as much as possible (the whole range for that matter).  bowling-out the range and placing the borrow along the side in question and also at the rear will help immensely. a) rebounds low shots back into range, b)focuses golfers down the middle, away from the side, allows you to cut the target greens in.

5) yes, 1/3 burial is the norm. 

6) 300 yds from the tee is the norm.  anything less needs a net. mounding can reduce net size.

7) consider a black, vinyl coated chainlink fence outside the net to prevent a) balls from running under and b) providing perminant separation between the fairway and range.

plant lots of pine trees along both side of the net to obscure it.

9) holes playing with direction of range shots better than holes playing into range shots. (what you can't see, won't hurt you - until it hits you in the back of the head.)

You didn't mention but I assume you're looking light this range?  If so, you have a whole 'nother list of criteria that needs to be included.

[Anthony Gray]

   

[Mike_Cirba]

Okay, based on that, here are some suggestions.

1) have you done a cost/benefit onthe double decker?  it will require you to increase the netting height.  Put it on the left side of tee area.

2) you're probably looking at large black metal poles and black netting.

3) the netting acts like a sail.  believe it or not, all those holes don't help alot.  although you state you have a natural treeline wind break on the other side of the range, those trees probably aren't as tall as the net would need to be.

4) if it's "flat,flat,flat" if you can make the drainage work, consider depressing the tee end as much as possible (the whole range for that matter).  bowling-out the range and placing the borrow along the side in question and also at the rear will help immensely. a) rebounds low shots back into range, b)focuses golfers down the middle, away from the side, allows you to cut the target greens in.

5) yes, 1/3 burial is the norm. 

6) 300 yds from the tee is the norm.  anything less needs a net. mounding can reduce net size.

7) consider a black, vinyl coated chainlink fence outside the net to prevent a) balls from running under and b) providing perminant separation between the fairway and range.

plant lots of pine trees along both side of the net to obscure it.

9) holes playing with direction of range shots better than holes playing into range shots. (what you can't see, won't hurt you - until it hits you in the back of the head.)

You didn't mention but I assume you're looking light this range?  If so, you have a whole 'nother list of criteria that needs to be included.

Tim,

Thank you very much.   That is precisely the type of information I'm looking for here.   It is greatly appreciated.

And yes, the range would need to be lighted and likely half the stalls would be heated for winter use.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()