[Neil_Crafter]

Following on from Tom Dunne's thread on El Boqueron and David Edel's wonderful new information on Mar del Plata and El Nautica San Isidro (and revelation that there are Mac plans for both these courses) that he posted there, I thought it might be timely to have a thread on Mac's South American trip of 1930. My intention of course is for this to be an interactive process and hopefully we will all end up knowing more about this fascinating component of Mackenzie's career.

Mackenzie left New York City for Buenos Aires, Argentina on the 24th January, as indicated in this brief article from the New York Times. I have been informed that the sailing times was around 2 weeks, which would give a likely arrival date in BA of 8th February 1930.



Mackenzie returned to England aboard the 'SS Alcantara' from BA, arriving in Southampton on 27th April 1930, as indicated in the following UK immigration record. Sailing time was around 18 to 19 days which would give a departure date from BA of around 8th April 1930, all up giving Mackenzie 2 months on the ground in South America.



The following is a list of courses, some of which have a confirmed Mackenzie heritage, while others are more speculative and any Mac involvement has yet to be confirmed.

THE JOCKEY CLUB, San Isidro, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Mackenzie's primary purpose was, as indicated in the NYT article, to design a new course for The Jockey Club, and while the NYT article suggested it would be a 27 hole assignment, by the time he had arrived it was upped to 36 holes. Mackenzie wrote a little about his work at The Jockey Club in The Spirit of St Andrews, and Doak Scott & Haddock (DSH) has a section on the course in their book. Engineer Luther Koontz of Wendell Miller's firm accompanied Mackenzie on his trip, although DSH suggest Koontz was a US engineer resident in Argentina. At the end of the book they discuss Koontz in a section on Mac's collaborators and there they list him as a Wendell Miller engineer (not very good editing!). The Jockey Club's records of Mackenzie's visit and his work were apparently lost in a later clubhouse fire - an all too familiar tale. 36 holes confirmed designed by Mackenzie.

MAR DEL PLATA GC, Mar del Plata, Argentina
DSH list this course as being one incorrectly attributed to Mackenzie. However, as indicated by David Edel in the El Boqueron Update thread, Mackenzie "was asked to look over and consult on the 18 nearly complete holes redesign by Juan Dentone.  Juan Dentone had just enlarged the course from 9 to 18, were he was the original architect designing Mar Del Plata in the late 1890's.  Juan Dentone is regarded as the father of Argentine golf pros, so having Mackenzie show up and provide his 2 cents must have been difficult. Mackenzie went in and not only gave his 2 cents, but disregarded Dentone's 18 hole revision and totally redesigned the course.  I have all the minutes from the club ledger and in light of the crash of 1930 starting to show up in Argentina, they decided not to impliment the Doc'swork.  Also, the Dentone routing is quite good and they didn't see the reason to take his advice.  Besides, at the time he was not as well known, especially in Argentina.  So, he did a plan, but he deserves no connection to the existing Mar Del Plata Golf Club." So confirmed Mac prepared a plan but work not undertaken. Plan exists today.

EL NAUTICO SAN ISIDRO, San Isidro, Buenos Aires, Argentina
A Mackenzie design rediscovered by David Edel who writes "As for El Nautico, that was a find.  I was looking through 30 years of the Golfer Argentino that I had recently purchased in Argentina.  From 1931 to 1960.  In the early book, I saw an article with the plans on the page for the future plan for the El Nautico San Isidro by Dr. Alister Mackenzie.  My jaw hit the book.  This plan was off the charts with the Lido hole, Redan, Cypress #16 & 15, first green complex at St Andrews.  I am sure a better eye could find other excellent attributes.  The reason I state that the holes resemble these fine holes, is that is exactly what the club wanted.  The great holes from around the world.  We have a news paper article from 1927,  with H. Cotton and Aubrey Boomer consulting for the club to create a course with great holes from around the world.  This plan is very unique in that when Mackenzie drew it, the land did not exist.  Meaning it was swamp land and that only a small portion existed.  Mac drew a preliminary 9 hole routing that would evolve into the the 18.  They did build the 9 hole routing and it evolved into a different beast.  The land was prone to high winds that in the winter swamped the course and flood it for months.  A large dike was built and the features that made the course special were gone.   Carlos Blasi, the pro at the club, became the new architect and the current golf course has no Mackenzie traits or flare.  So, with the El Nautico, we have the 9 hole early plan, and the 18 hole plan.  Nautico is neat because there was no land, and to boot it was dead flat.  The features were added from dredge spoils."
Plan exists, confirmed Mackenzie involvement in the original 9 hole course.

CLUB GOLF ARGENTINO, Palermo, Buenos Aires, Argentina (now Campo de Golf de la Ciudad Buenos Aires)
DSH list as a revision from 1930 and suggest incorrectly the name of the course is the Palermo Club. Not listed by Hawtree or C&W. City of Buenos Aires website indicates that the course at Palermo was redesigned by Mackenzie in 1930. It was first laid out in 1905 when Carlos Alfredo Tornquist established the Golf Club Argentino, when Greenkeeper Tom Watson and professional John Park collaborated on its design. In 1950 the course came into the possession of the City of Buenos Aires and was renamed Juan Batista Segura Municipal Golf Course.
Information from DSH and website needs corroboration.

EL BOQUERON, Mar del Plata, Argentina
Design for a new course that was never implemented.
Plan exists, Mackenzie involvement confirmed.

CLUB DE GOLF DEL URUGUAY, Montevideo, Uruguay
DSH list as an expansion and redesign of the 1895 9 hole layout to 18 holes, with Luther Koontz from 1934. Listed by Hawtree and C&W as a new course but without a date. Mackenzie visited in 1930 to inspect the site and prepare plans. Routing plan is dated May 1930 - this was most likely drawn up after he returned to the UK and then sent back to Uruguay. Green plans also exist, but are in a different hand to Mackenzie's routing - possibly drawn by Koontz?
Mackenzie involvement confirmed.

FRAY BENTOS GC, Fray Bentos, Rio Negro, Uruguay (originally Anglo Social & Athletic Club Fray Bentos)
Not listed by DSH, Hawtree or C&W. References on various websites to Mackenzie as the designer of this 9 hole course. Dr James Scott, co-author of the DSH book, wrote a letter to John Lovell that says "Fray Bentos has disappeared from the manuscript - again to my annoyance, I thought it was rather an amusing little tale." I haven't been able to find out what the tale was about.
Mackenzie involvement not confirmed, but seems quite possible.

CHIMONT GOLF CLUB, Montevideo, Uruguay (now Club de Golf del Cerro)
Not listed by DSH, Hawtree or C&W.  Information from websites: In 1913 the Swift slaughter and cold-storage plant (USA) was built in Uruguay and as was customary with Swift, a golf course was added to the plans. The golf club house was brought over from Chicago to Uruguay and the golf club was baptized with the name CHIMONT, Chicago-Montevideo. In the decade of the 30's the famous designer Dr Alister MacKenzie was given the responsibility of re-designing the golf club and the 18 holes golf course, finally in the 1950's, when the Swift company closed, the golf club was renamed with its present name.
Mackenzie involvement not confirmed, but also seems likely.

So 5 projects in Argentina and 3 in Uruguay make up the list of confirmed and possibles. Hopefully as time goes on the possibles can either be confirmed or eliminated, and possibly other discoveries made, like David has in recent times.
Neil

[TEPaul]

Neil:

I guess you've seen that drawing (Mackenzie's I think) of one of those Argentine courses that had a ton of melded fairways. I can't remember which club it was but the drawing was passed around at a meeting at the USGA a little over a year ago. It got my attention because the drawing was around the same time that Mackenzie and Behr were starting to talk alot about designs with little to no rough.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
I believe you are referring to the recently discovered El Boqueron course, suggest you take a look at the current El Boqueron Update thread where you will see Mackenzie's plan.
cheers Neil

[TEPaul]

Neil:

I guess that's the same plan that was passed around. I don't remember that it had the name of the course on it although I think I remember the melded fairways were colorized; otherwise I can't imagine how I got such a strong impression that many of them actually were melded together as they seemed to be.

[Tom_Doak]

Neil:

My co-authors and I get a lot of crap for some of the accreditations in the MacKenzie biography, but to me we got Mar del Plata right -- it's incorrect to credit it to Dr. MacKenzie since they did not follow through with his plan.

I'll be glad to send you Dr. Scott's write-up of Fray Bentos when I get back to America.  Neither the publisher nor myself thought that it was warranted to devote 3-4 pages to a "rumored" MacKenzie design that (if it ever existed at all) was a shadow of a real MacKenzie.  Much like El Boqueron from what I remember ... a remote estate course that was crudely built.

[TEPaul]

"... a remote estate course that was crudely built."


I guess it's a small point to make, but it seems Macdonald and MacKenzie came from almost polar opposite places on the idea of private estate golf courses.

From his book it's obvious Macdonald actively tried to deter a couple of very wealthy individuals (Otto Kahn and Payne Whitney) from New York and Long Island from getting him to design 18 hole private courses for them. Instead he tended to suggest a few GB prototype greens on 6-8 acreas that could be played at from various lengths and directions.

It seems like Maconald's prime concern about 18 hole private estate courses is that they just wouldn't be maintained properly which was clearly something of a heartbreak for him when he first went back and saw the deplorable condition of his ultra amazing Lido.

Mackenzie, on the other hand seemed to use the private estate course as a chance for some real architectural experimentation---ie Sitwell Park (one of the wildest greens ever built) and this private course in Argentina----El Boqueron.

[Sean_Tully]

David,

Hope that you are looking in here!

Interested in any information you might have or knowledge of the Ascochinga Golf Club. Construction of the club was started in 1931 and it was only nine holes then. On top of the timing of the construction the course was built on lands owned by the "Argentine Medical Establishment,"  an interesting coincidence? No sure fire MacKenzie reference to date, but sure sounds interesting and at least a look.

Tully

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Thanks for your thoughts.

While it is certainly the case that Mackenzie should not be credited with the design of the Mar del Plata course, it is not entirely true either to say that it is incorrectly attributed to him, given that he did a design for the course that was not followed through with. In working up our spreadsheet on Mac's courses, I have also introduced a category of "Courses Consulted or Designed but Work Not Undertaken or Completed", into which I believe the Mar del Plata course falls quite nicely. With just two categories of "Attributed" and "Incorrectly Attributed" I believe courses like Mar del Plata and many others (such as Capuchino CC, Woodside, Dana Point, Golfers CC etc) would fall through the cracks.

There certainly are a number of "Incorrectly Attributed" courses out there like Lake Karrinyup, Heretaunga, Scarcroft, Brancepeth Castle etc, where there is absolutely no evidence of any Mackenzie involvement, and these certainly belong in such a category. But in trying to document all of Mac's designs, regardless of whether they were implemented on the ground or not, I believe an additional category is warranted.

John Lovell passed me on Dr Scott's mention of Fray Bentos, but John didn't know any details. While any involvement of Mackenzie in this course is interesting, I agree with you that it certainly wouldn't warrant 3 or 4 pages in the completed book either - but perhaps a brief mention of it could have survived in the final version? I would certainly love to see what Scott's "amusing little tale" was about - so if you could send me this info upon your return I'd be very appreciative.

[David Edel]

Sean,

I will look up the course that you indicated in my Golf Argentino mags.  I recall seeing many inferences to courses and events at tournaments.  They often come with some pictures.  I see so many pictures of bunkering and green complexes from that era that do not look the same today.  I feel like Australia, though Mac didn't see or work on many courses, many copied the look. 

With regard to Mar Del Plata, I believe from the club documentation that Luther Koontz aided with the developement of the irrigation system, and worked on some of the bunkering.  I would guess by the sum of money they paid Mac for his work, that they did not just shelf it.   Luther Koontz spent many years if not most of his remaining, so I would like to see how much the club ledgers indicate his involvement.  Therefore, the connection to some of Mackenzie's ideas may have been implimented.  From what I understand the course was almost complete when he arrived, so  a redo may have not sat well with the membership.   As El Boqueron was built by Dentone, and from the photo is the EL Boqueron thread would demostrate, not much Mackenzie in that green.  How much Mackenzie in El Boqueron may have never made it?

David

[Neil_Crafter]

David
Do you know anything about Mackenzie's involvement at the Club Golf Argentino in Palermo?

You also mention Mac's fee for the Mar del Plata job - do you know what it was?

cheers Neil

[David Edel]

Neil,

I do know the budget that they (Mackenzie and Koontz) for the remodel.  It is in Argentine peso, so factoring what that is in equivalent pesos to dollars at that time and to the present.  I can give you the figures and with your research abilities you can figure out the sum.  It would be probably best to send you what I have and you can view it. 

Not much is known about his involvement at el Argentino.  The course is a muni run by the city.  At the time, it was the prominant club in Argentina.  Even when the Jockey was built, it was the major venue.  It is right in the down town, near all the high rent districts of B.A.  In the 40's it was taken from the club by Peron, and they ended up moving to a different site.  Jose Jurado, a very well known player was the professional there.  He took 2nd in I believe the 32 British, and 2nd or 3rd at our Open.  He was responsible for bringing many of the great players to Argentina.  EL Argentino was a significant club and the closest to the city.  It was land locked, and I see that the changes that were made in the green complexes look quite good.  If you are interested I can scan the photo that pretaint to Palermo and the changes that were made.  All were executed by Koontz to my knowledge. 

What is your knowledgeof Frey Bentos.  That is a area that is relatively far from Montevideo, especially in that era.  Not a very vibrant place even in this era, not to bag on it. 

I am very passionate about Argentine golf.  Roberto DeVicenzo is a man that I have alot of respect for.  The class of players from that golden age is awesome.  Players like Enrique Bertilino, Martin Pose, Juan Ines Cruckshank, Aurelio Castenon, Marcos Churio, Emilo Serra, Jose Jurado, Eduardo Blasi,  just to name a few.   These guys to play with anyone.  I was lucky in the early 90's to meet and talk with some of these greats.  Shame I did not spend more time, because the stories went on forever.  I hope to someday shine a light on their accomplishments.  They were not treated very well when they showed up in the states and could not speak english.  Not a lot of compasion during that era for people who could not speak english.  Roberto dealt with way more than Angel or Andres.  Vicente is a fantastic character and as good of a man you can ever meet.  I think if they were more comfortable hear they would of spent more time and competed at very high levels.  Argentines are tough.

David

[Neil_Crafter]

David
Yes, I would be interested to see what they were given as a budget to do the work - and also if you know what fee Mackenzie charged them - it would be interesting to see how this compares with what he was charging here in Australia in 1926.

Do you think GC Argentino can be reasonably attributed as a Mackenzie redesign on what you have heard? I'd like to see any photos you have.

My knowledge of Fray Bentos is limited to what you see in my write up above. I do know that Fray Bentos was a beef town with slaughterhouses and packing plants, world famous for its beef and the course he is alleged to have designed there was for the Anglo Social and Athletic Club. There are internet sources that credit the design of this 9 hole course to Mackenzie, and Dr Scott, Tom Doak's co-author in their bio of Mackenzie, wrote about this course but the material was left out of the final book. Tom has offered to send me Dr Scott's material on the course and hopefully this might shed a little light on it. That's about it. Its a long way from Montevideo I do know. Still, if there was a dollar in it, Mackenzie would have travelled there in a shot, presumably by train, so I don't think the distance would have put him off.

Apart from Roberto, the Argentinian players of that era were not well known, but wonderful players none the less. Their stories would have been fascinating for sure.

Neil

[David Edel]

Neil,

I do know much of the rework done at El Argentino was conducted well into the 30's.  I will have to go back, but they would have articles on the new greens at Palermo as an example.  Some being finished in the middle 30's.  I think those are manily Koontz greens as possibly direct from Mackenzie? 

Sad thing is that Argentina had such a small golfing population, and those that played were generally well off.  They took for granted the special feats during that golden age, and most was thrown out.  I hope by asking the questions, some families of the cast from the past will find things to shed more light. 

I will do my best to put together a story line of pictures and articles.  Send me your address as it would be easier to send hard files on this than via email. 

David

[Thomas Dai]

A recent (long) conversation about South American football resulted in talk about South American golf, in particular Alister MacKenzie's trip there in Jan-April 1930 and this was followed by quite a bit of web-browsing by myself.


Argentina and Uruguay were of course at the time of Dr MacK's visit very significant beef producers/exporters, 'corned-beef' and all that, so there would have most likely been ex-pats involved in the meat production/processing/railway/shipping etc business as well as the more well off locals who had a liking for golf. Indeed I found a reference in which the rural western Uruguayan town of Fray Bentos is referred to as 'the kitchen of the world', which is quite a claim.


So the mention above to an 'amusing little tale' about Dr MacK' and the Fray Bentos GC course is of interest.


Can someone elaborate on this tale?


The course at FBGC is still there - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@-33.1230422,-58.322247,16z/data=!3m1!1e3 - looks like a couple of very interesting holes/greens.

Here's a historical piece about the town and the beef etc industries development. It's from a guidebook but it's nice background information - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o9eYBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=fray+bentos+golf&source=bl&ots=AFt1jURYKM&sig=ZFdZGKt4XluHD-xRGjpgHu4x4K8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiU4bGV7cPMAhXEL8AKHZmADOk4FBDoAQgfMAM#v=onepage&q=fray%20bentos%20golf&f=false

Atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Thomas,

Thank you for finding this old thread. I too had been intrigued by the idea of a MacKenzie course called Fray Bentos and my brief researches brought up an interesting book of which I had not previously heard.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KN3TAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=mackenzie+fray+bentos&source=bl&ots=x8fv3Vf9Ep&sig=B9kO2g7wGK-70xn9jLXqHfz2huw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7qYe28M7MAhVqBMAKHe2iBDYQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=mackenzie%20fray%20bentos&f=false

Only snippets are available in preview, and the print copy appears to be completely unavailable via the normal channels.

Also, an interesting piece about "The Lost MacKenzie" at El Boquerón

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/golf-the-lost-mackenzie

[MClutterbuck]

There is a lot of dispute about this course. The club claims it was built in 1928 by Mackenzie. However, I believe that this would be 2 years too early. Might he have rerouted a previous course?








I have heard mix opinions about this course. A friend who has travelled a lot and seen a lot thinks it is genuine. Another does not, but neither are experts.

[Bill_McBride]

A recent (long) conversation about South American football resulted in talk about South American golf, in particular Alister MacKenzie's trip there in Jan-April 1930 and this was followed by quite a bit of web-browsing by myself.


Argentina and Uruguay were of course at the time of Dr MacK's visit very significant beef producers/exporters, 'corned-beef' and all that, so there would have most likely been ex-pats involved in the meat production/processing/railway/shipping etc business as well as the more well off locals who had a liking for golf. Indeed I found a reference in which the rural western Uruguayan town of Fray Bentos is referred to as 'the kitchen of the world', which is quite a claim.


So the mention above to an 'amusing little tale' about Dr MacK' and the Fray Bentos GC course is of interest.


Can someone elaborate on this tale?


The course at FBGC is still there - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@-33.1230422,-58.322247,16z/data=!3m1!1e3 - looks like a couple of very interesting holes/greens.

Here's a historical piece about the town and the beef etc industries development. It's from a guidebook but it's nice background information - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o9eYBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=fray+bentos+golf&source=bl&ots=AFt1jURYKM&sig=ZFdZGKt4XluHD-xRGjpgHu4x4K8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiU4bGV7cPMAhXEL8AKHZmADOk4FBDoAQgfMAM#v=onepage&q=fray%20bentos%20golf&f=false

Atb

There was a lot of British influence in Argentina in the early 20th Century.  Railroads were designed and built by British engineers.  The main railroad station in Buenos Aires wouldn't be out of place in London.  British golf would have certainly been brought along by those who came to work in Argentina.

[Thomas Dai]

Duncan,


I've just been looking at photos either posted herein or elsewhere on the web of MacKenzie's two courses in Montevideo and also of the Jockey Club in Buenos Aires and can see many similarities (especially in the mounding and greensite contouring) to the inland Mackenzie courses I know best in the UK.


Marcus,


I also noted the date inconsistencies. I think I recall a reference somewhere to the course being revised by MacK' so it would be nice to hear more about the "amusing little tale" mentioned a couple of times above and the 3-4 pages about the course that were not ultimately included in the DSH's MacKenzie book.


By the way, there are very few photos of Fray Bentos GC on the web so nice to see the ones you've posted. Do you happen to have any more or have access to others that could be posted herein?


I did find this website though - http://paisajefraybentos.com/pc/fray-bentos-golf-club/


Bill,


You got it. Britain played a significant role in the development of the countries around the Plate river/estuary from circa the mid 19th century - there's even a Welsh speaking area in Patagonia! - and where Brits go golf usually follows pretty quickly. The early expats of the El Anglo company that operated at Fray Bentos are mentioned as being mainly Scottish and the area of town where the course is located is referred to as Barrio Anglo so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find some kind of golf course or playing area there before Dr MacK' (did-didn't?) arrive.


Paging a Sherlock Holmes look-alike/act-alike - and hopefully one who can read Spanish (or the Uruguayan/Argentinian version) !


atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan,


I've just been looking at photos either posted herein or elsewhere on the web of MacKenzie's two courses in Montevideo and also of the Jockey Club in Buenos Aires and can see many similarities (especially in the mounding and greensite contouring) to the inland Mackenzie courses I know best in the UK.

Have you played Reddish Vale?

You must allow me to host you at your earliest convenience.

[Thomas Dai]

Have you played Reddish Vale?
You must allow me to host you at your earliest convenience.

Duncan, very kind. PM on route.
Atb

[Randy Thompson]

Duncan,

Paging a Sherlock Holmes look-alike/act-alike - and hopefully one who can read Spanish (or the Uruguayan/Argentinian version) !


atb

Holmes here, lived in Argentina 5 years and worked 25 there, lived three in Uruguay and worked five. Chile 17 and 25! How can I help?

[Thomas Dai]

Sherlock, aka Randy,

Firstly, thank you for the kind offer of help.

It would be fascinating to establish a few more details about the history of Fray Bentos GC, particularly about any Dr Mack' visit/involvement (maybe the details are pretty obvious but my lack of langauge skills are preventing my further understanding!).

Photos of FBGC would be nice as well as there are very few on the web and from viewing sat-maps the course appears to have a cracking looking long par-5 (maybe the 7th hole) and a couple of interesting looking green sites on other holes as well.

Maybe search engines herein and elsewhere are struggling with my poorly worded enquiries but details and particularly photos of most S American courses don't seem that easy to find although the ones posted on GCA by the likes of yourself, Marcus, Ricardo etc are much appreciated. For example other than those in Ran's profile there aren't many easily findable photos of the two courses at the Jockey Club. However, from those I've managed to view the similarity with some of the flatter inland MacK' courses I'm most familiar with in the UK is pretty startling.

So there we go.....elementary!

Atb

[MClutterbuck]

Thomas, from what I gather, the course is within the industrial port section of town that is now a UNESCO World Heritage Site, so it seems the golf course is protected from changes.


http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1464/gallery/


I will ask a few people if they have pictures.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks MC. Who would ever have believed when it was first built that a meat processing plant and the surrounding township would one day become a World Heritage Site. Not knocking it though but the world does move on in unpredictable and mysterious ways.
All the best


Later edit - some old B&W photos now coloured of some of the courses mentioned in this thread -


Mar del Plata, Argentina
The course by the harbour in the city centre.












Golf de Club del Uruguay, Montevideo


Below - sections of the course before MacKenzie's visit





Below - a section course sometime after MacKenzie's visit -

[Tony_Muldoon]

Has this ever been discussed on here?

http://alistermackenziefoundation.org/about/alister-mackenzie-timeline/

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