[Mike_Cirba]

Anyone out there with experience in the pros and cons of Indoor golf dome/sports centers?

Are they profitable?   What size "footprint" does one normally need?  How many stations is normal?   Are they easily and quickly adaptable for alternative uses and/or special events?  Are they environmentally friendly?

The "year round" climate-controlled environment seems ideal for northern climes on the face of it from a revenue perspective.

Any and all info is most appreciated.

Thanks!

[Ronald Montesano]

We have two in western New York (down from five).  One is golf-only, the other has turf for softball and soccer.  Each has two tiers of stations and probably has 30-35 per level.  The one with turf also has an 18 hole miniature golf course.

Regarding the other questions, I cannot help you.

[Cliff Hamm]

No idea from the business side.  Personally go infrequently.  Would rather hit from a heated bay if the range is open meaning no snow and not below 20 or so.  Here is a link to the one in Rhode Island.

http://www.eqgolfdome.com/

[PCCraig]

I can't stand domes. They are always expensive and you can't really see where the ball is going.

There is a three tier all weather range nearby that I grew up going to in the winters and still do. I like being able to hit woods and see where they go, and with the swings and heaters space heaters above you it isn't bad at all.

[Ronald Montesano]

Grumpy Cliff and Grumpy Pat aside, lots of people prefer domes for the reasons that they are not exactly helpful to the game:  no wind and no visuals.  I find them best for 90% short game work (1/4 and 1/2 wedges) and the occasional long irons and metals to keep the swing grooved.  They typically go 90 yards from tee to wall/skin.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ronald/Cliff/Pat,

Some of them seem quite large.   

The largest "golf only" ones I've seen online support up to 50 "bays" go 275 ft x 300 ft x 70 ft High for a total of 82,500 square feet.

Ron...have you been to the one at Turning Stone Casino?   I believe that one is a bit bigger, if memory serves.

I've seen one called "Multi-recreational" that goes 275 x 400 x 75 High for 110,000 square feet.

I'm not sure why you get the extra 100 feet depth if it's not used for golf, because the bays can't be that big?

[Mike_Cirba]

Just looking at the dimensions of the one in Syracuse...

300'L x 280'W x 80'H


I guess the question gets to Pat's point...do they really approximate real golf shots and feedback at that distance?

[PCCraig]

Just looking at the dimensions of the one in Syracuse...

300'L x 280'W x 80'H


I guess the question gets to Pat's point...do they really approximate real golf shots and feedback at that distance?

They really don't IMO.

And I don't think they help much for short game as the ground is rock hard and the ball bounces 10ft in the air on a 50 yard shot.

[Ronald Montesano]

I haven't been to the T-S one, which may or may not be the Syracuse one.  Pat is correct about the ball reacting like a parking lot (Wang!)  Excepting, of course, if the landing area doubles as turf fields, as in the Paddock Dome in Tonawanda, NY (our better dome.)  I find that 90 or 100 yards, it's still not long enough to hit full wedges and have them land unaffected.  The 1/4 and 1/2 wedge shots with all three wedges can be credibly practiced so as to prepare for the outdoor season.  Keep in mind, though, that I treat the game as a low handicapper might.  The majority of patrons don't consider these things and are thrilled to be indoors, beating balls, all Winter long.  Mate your dome with a pro shop and bar/restaurant and you've got a cash cow.

[hick]

The golf dome in west warwick , RI is decent for warming up before a winter Vacation. This one always has a good crowd. The URI golf team practices at eagle quest in the winter. This one in RI has had the same owners for the last ten or more years so i would say they do well.

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys..

I guess one question that has arisen for me is whether or not the dome gets play in the summer?

I would think air-conditioning might go a long way there, but when the days are warm and sunny, does anyone want to be indoors?

That's not rhetorical...I'm just thinking pure business model at the moment and trying to enhance revenue and profitability.   

It would certainly suck to air condition 50,000 square feet for a golfer or two on the range!   

[Charlie Goerges]

It's not just the square feet, it's the cubic feet!

[Ronald Montesano]

Absolutely not for the Summer question...both domes have outdoor ranges on property.  The restaurant/golf shop areas are in a separate stone building linked to the dome via a rotational door/air lock system.  No one wants to be indoors for golf, ever.  When it is the only option in Winter, people embrace it.

Another point you should know is durability of skin to wind and snow.  Both of our operating domes have been blown/weighed down by wind/snow.  The Paddock dome in Tonawanda was rebuilt with a more durable skin (that's the one that you should use) while the other one (privately, not municipally owned) patches and repairs.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ronald,

On the one's you're familiar with, are they multi-purposed in the summer months?

Also, regarding durability, is there a chance of golf balls coming from inside (or outside) hitting the material causing damage?

[Ronald Montesano]

The domes are completely closed during good-weather months.  Unless there is a forecast of 3-4 days of crap weather, they remain closed from roughly May 1-November 1.

Hitting what material?  The outdoor ranges do not play toward the domes.  Balls from the inside don't seem to make holes in the skins.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

They are a maintenance NIGHTMARE 

The last club I was at had a dome.

A dome is as needy as an infant.

Lets talks about snow first:

The snow slides down the sides and piles up against the outer wall. Now you have to come in immediately afterward to bobcat and hand shovel the snow away from the base. That takes four men 2-3 hours, and you have to be on top of it right away - within hours - any time of the day or week, or else the snow will push so hard on the bubble that the fabric will split in multiple places. So you have to have a good team of guys on call 24/7 for this kind of work. That includes Christmas, your anniversary, your child's birthday party, whatever. 

You also have to heat it. And the fan has to run nonstop for all of the time it is up.

And then at the end of the season when you take it down, it is too heavy to roll up and haul away, so you let it sit deflated. So now every time it rains you have to inflate it to get the water to shed off, but you can't get all of it off. So in the fall when you reactivate it, now you rent a couple of cherry pickers and power washers and 4 to 6 people work for several days cleaning the mold and mildew off of it. We had guys who would actually have to get off the cherry picker and walk around on the roof of it to clean it. HOW SAFE IS THAT? What is required to clean these things is absurd.

RUN FROM DOMES LIKE THE FRIGGIN PLAGUE!!!!!!!!!!!

If you have good people working for you in maintenance that you value, you would never buy a dome, because taking care of a dome will kill your people.

Every employee of our club hated the dome. And we all felt that it endangered our safety too. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

Don't eqivocate...tell me what you really think! 

Seriously, I very much appreciate your frank opinion.

[Ronald Montesano]

THAT'S what we needed, an insider's view.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

I would not base a business model on keeping the dome open in the summer months. The cost to keep it cooled down would have to be very very high......put it this way - the electric meter could double as a meat slicer.

The other issue would be smell. The smell of mildew in the winter months, when it is kept around 55 degrees, is strong enough. I can't imagine what a dome would smell like in the summer months at around 80 degrees.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

Ok...I'm sold. 

[Kevin Norby]

Mike,

We were involved with a project in Minnesota where the developer built a facility for the golfers to hit balls from the indoors to the outdoors.  The project has about 24 stalls with garage doors which face south. In the first two or three years, the owner had it set up so the balls would be collected in nets suspended above ground. He eventually found that the snow got compacted and so it was easier to skip the nets and instead lets the golfers hit out into the snow. The inside of the building has a radiant heat system as well as televisions, a bar and a video instruction facility.  Outside he has a three hole pitch and putt course, an 18-hole bentgrass putting course and a practice green.  In the summer, he moves the teeing area down on to the ground and let's the golfers hit either off of mats or off of turf depending on the condition of the turf.  His turf tee is a bit too small so it gets pretty beat up.   This past year he added an addition to his building and put in an indoor 18 hole miniature golf course.  I've been there at 10 degrees (F)and it's still reasonably warm with the south exposure and the heaters (the prevailing winter winds are out of the north).  He seems to do a really good business in the winter.  Sometimes you can go there and people are lined up waiting 20 minutes for a stall.

Kevin

[Jason Topp]

Mike,

We were involved with a project in Minnesota where the developer built a facility for the golfers to hit balls from the indoors to the outdoors.  The project has about 24 stalls with garage doors which face south. In the first two or three years, the owner had it set up so the balls would be collected in nets suspended above ground. He eventually found that the snow got compacted and so it was easier to skip the nets and instead lets the golfers hit out into the snow. The inside of the building has a radiant heat system as well as televisions, a bar and a video instruction facility.  Outside he has a three hole pitch and putt course, an 18-hole bentgrass putting course and a practice green.  In the summer, he moves the teeing area down on to the ground and let's the golfers hit either off of mats or off of turf depending on the condition of the turf.  His turf tee is a bit too small so it gets pretty beat up.   This past year he added an addition to his building and put in an indoor 18 hole miniature golf course.  I've been there at 10 degrees (F)and it's still reasonably warm with the south exposure and the heaters (the prevailing winter winds are out of the north).  He seems to do a really good business in the winter.  Sometimes you can go there and people are lined up waiting 20 minutes for a stall.

Kevin

It is a good customer experience.  Televisions, beer and a fire out front are key.  Still - it stinks with a south wind and I wonder if it gets any use in the summer.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kevin,

That's interesting.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Ideally, I'd like to come up with a creative way to add utility (and revenue) to an existing range/sports complex in winter months while not making it impractical (or too costly to cool) in summer.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Some domes do stay up year round.  We worked with a dome out in Ohio where the owner was interested in our Birdieball course concept (it uses a limited flight innovative golf ball).  They had planned to do an outside course as well (we designed the driving range to double as a short course for the birdieball).  It was a pretty neat idea (all part of a First Tee facility) but lack of funding held it up.  I don't know if he is still using the birdieballs indoors or not?
Mark

[Kevin Norby]

This particular facility seems to do pretty well in the summer but clearly the majority of his business/revenue comes in the winter months.  I think if one were to develop an eighteen hole (or nice 9 hole facility) and then incorporate a successful facility such as his to provide a year-round source of revenue, you might have a winning formula. 

Kevin

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