[Scott Warren]

I've never seen anything less than 10 minute spacings in teetimes here in Germany. Are shorter intervals a US specialty or does it happen elsewhere as well?

Growing up in Sydney, Australia, playing in fours, The norm was 7-8 minutes at clubs I played at. It always seemed a bit close together.

Is there a par flow (ie 5, 4, 3 or 5, 4, 4 etc) that has been shown to be best at getting the field flowing?

[Bill_Yates]

Scott,
You might be interested in reading my interview dated July 2007 on this site.  It will answer your question and provide additional pace of play insights. 

[Garland Bayley]

Scott,
You might be interested in reading my interview dated July 2007 on this site.  It will answer your question and provide additional pace of play insights. 

Bill,

I want to thank you for the studies you have done and the insights they have given us.

However, I would like to point out that yesterday I played in a foursome that did a 5 and half hour round on an empty golf course. Had I been able to select the members of the foursome, we would have played the course in 2 and a half hours tops. In fact the only golfers we saw all day were a two-some that we let play through that reported they had played the front nine in 1 hour 10 minutes.

It is golfers that cause slow play. Not golf courses! You can calculate averages, but when there is a difference in lenght of play of maybe forty five minutes between a fast golf course and a slow golf course, that becomes insignificant when you consider there is a 3 hour difference between one foursome and another.

If you are not a tour pro, then you are not good enough to play slow! You are wasting every one else's time!

[Mike McGuire]

Is there a par flow (ie 5, 4, 3 or 5, 4, 4 etc) that has been shown to be best at getting the field flowing?

I like 4-4-5-3 to get things off to a good start. 4-5 is the worst.

[Wayne_Freedman]

Some of the players who think they are the fastest are the slowest.

If a club dressed rangers as Nazi SS men, and executed slow players on the spot, that would work.

Otherwise, the game is filled with idiots who exist in their own time warps, and there is no getting through to them.

NO...GETTING..THROUGH...TO...THEM.

This is my idea.

Any group behind the pace of play regulations is simply removed from the course.
No warnings, no arguements, no excuses.
Their money is refunded on a "pro-rated, by hole" amount.

Good, fast, courteous players will love your course and be loyal customers.
Lousy, slow, selfish players will not play at your course.

-Ted

[Doug Siebert]

Doug S. by saying 9/10 missthe green on short 4's, I wasn't implying that you should go ahead and hit - that's just plain stupid.  I was implying that even though they have a minute chance of actually hitting the green, they wait for it to clear just in case they manage that career shot.

Sure the same holds true for long par 3's except most people wouldn't even consider laying up on a 3 - hence the reason I don't do many long (over 220 yds) par 3s.

Ted,

Hasn't that always been the case with short par 4s?  Whether those short par 4s were 275 yards in 1930 or are 330 yards today.

The problem with short par 4s is not the waiting for one's career drive, I think that's common sense to insure you don't kill someone.  The problem is caused due to today's equipment which creates drives that carry much further -- the gains in carry distance have been much greater than the gains in overall driving distance.

If I think back to my really crazy long drives I hit 20 years ago, they generally didn't carry a whole lot further than a more normal drive.  They just happened to get some really long roll for whatever reason.  For all I know, they were all sprinkler head hits

Today, my crazy long drives have a crazy long carry, I mean like a stupidly long carry that comes out of nowhere that I can't really account for.  Did I suddenly swing with an extra 15 mph of clubhead speed?  Is there some secret square mm-sized spot on my clubface with an illegal COR?  Did my predilection for hitting the ball insanely high put it up into a lower level offshoot of the jet stream?

Who knows, but I do know that hitting into a green I can only reach with a drive I might hit a few times a season wouldn't really be a big deal 20 years ago, because a ball rolling up into someone's ankle isn't going to be a problem.  A ball hitting someone on the fly or the one hop probably will, and like you say, its stupid to take the risk.

That said, I really don't think its a big issue.  My home course has no driveable par 4s, the shortest being about 370 yards.  A couple other courses around here I frequent each have two par 4s that are driveable for me, at least given prevailing winds.  Depending on the wind, pin position, tee position etc. sometimes I'll just wait until the group ahead is on the green with the flag out, other times I wait until they've finished the hole.

Obviously that means my group is waiting around, but if we've been waiting on the group ahead for previous holes that means our pace is faster than the pace they (and those in front of them) are moving at, so we should be able to close the gap opened up by my waiting.  And we do.  I don't really notice any difference in the flow of the course of between my home course with no driveable par 4s and the others that do have them -- and one of those not only has the two driveable par 4s, it also has six par 3s, and six par 5s (and I'm typically going for 3 or 4 of those in two shots as well)  And you know what, that course has always been the one with the fastest play!

I'm guess I'm just not sure whether this really affects the overall flow of the course very much at all in the end.  I suppose if a group behind us fails to catch up with us when we catch back up with the group ahead its a problem for everyone else behind them, but the same thing could have happened to that group if they lost a ball and spent five minutes looking, or just had one of those holes where everyone in the group takes 2 shots over their norm, so its probably a matter of time before they fell behind anyway.

[Bill_Yates]

Garland,
Thanks for your nice comments.

Through all of my years making observations and consulting with courses around the world, I have identified "Five Major Factors" that impact the pace of play.  They are:
1. Management Practices
2. Player Behavior
3. Player Ability
4. Course Set-up and Maintenance Practices
5. Course Design

On an empty course, like the one you played yesterday, Player Behavior (your miserably slow foursome) probably trumped Management Practices as being the reason for "slow play," as no one else was impacted.  However, as soon as your behavior negatively affects other playing groups, I strongly believe that the responsibility for allowing your group to degrade the value of the playing experience of other groups, should have fallen squarely on the shoulders of the course management team.

Regarding your other comment, keep in mind that the unique design of each course sets the bar for the time it "should take" to play that course.  And the sequence of holes (also course design) determines the natural ebb and flow of play (including the optimal starting interval, as well as, the ease or difficulty the management team will have in managing flow) on the course.

When it comes to the whole subject of pace of play, you know that all of the variables you mentioned, and the countless others that have been listed in the previous five pages of posts, make successfully managing golf courses and the expectations of players very, very difficult.  Golf course management is not rocket science - it's harder!

[Sean_A]

Garland,
Thanks for your nice comments.

Through all of my years making observations and consulting with courses around the world, I have identified "Five Major Factors" that impact the pace of play.  They are:
1. Management Practices
2. Player Behavior
3. Player Ability
4. Course Set-up and Maintenance Practices
5. Course Design

On an empty course, like the one you played yesterday, Player Behavior (your miserably slow foursome) probably trumped Management Practices as being the reason for "slow play," as no one else was impacted.  However, as soon as your behavior negatively affects other playing groups, I strongly believe that the responsibility for allowing your group to degrade the value of the playing experience of other groups, should have fallen squarely on the shoulders of the course management team.

Regarding your other comment, keep in mind that the unique design of each course sets the bar for the time it "should take" to play that course.  And the sequence of holes (also course design) determines the natural ebb and flow of play (including the optimal starting interval, as well as, the ease or difficulty the management team will have in managing flow) on the course.

When it comes to the whole subject of pace of play, you know that all of the variables you mentioned, and the countless others that have been listed in the previous five pages of posts, make successfully managing golf courses and the expectations of players very, very difficult.  Golf course management is not rocket science - it's harder!

Without a doubt Bill is correct that (assuming we are talking public courses) management and golfers are the two main culprits for slow play with course set - up having a high impact at certain times of the year.  That said, does anybody think its possible that tee times could be organized around the playing of the 1st hole.  I have come to believe that the best opening hole is reachable par 4 for some - enough for folks to wait as Doug suggests.  When folks leave the green then the next group tees off.  This worked very, very well at my old club and despite a reachable par 5 next followed by a par 3, the course nearly always flowed smoothly - if folks waited on the 1st tee for the group ahead to leave just as on a par 3.  I also honestly believe that 2 ball times in the early am at a bit of a premium price would be a great boost to pace of play.  Nearly all the publics I have seen lately are clogged from the get go and often only ease in mid to late afternoon.  I think that if public courses had a small club attachment which was competitive then the 2 ball idea in the early am would could work - especially if the course is near a large population centre.  The entire idea of thinking that foks are gonna change the behaviour of millions of golfers by demanding 4 hour games out of 4 balls on a public course is pie in the sky stuff unless the management is willing to enforce its demands.  People are people, they won't change their ways unless they are compelled to - especially where activities during leisure is concerned.  So if management wants to force through large numbers of golfers it must enforce its policies or come up with more creative ways to make get faster people out in the am in smaller numbers. 

Ciao   

[Jonathan Cummings]

Josh - with 6 pages of reply I expect to be reading your new book soon "The Authoritative Guide on Page of Play"....

 

J

[John Moore II]

Sean Arble--The reachable par 4 idea would be ok, but a course could accomplish the same thing with 12-15 minute tee time intervals. I say you could do the same thing since it would likely take roughly that amount of time to play the hole. So, either you schedule tee times on a bigger interval anyway, or you end up with a huge logjam on the first tee. I mean, even if only one person in the group can potentially reach the green, the other three should be able to hit in no more than 3 minutes. If we are looking at 8 minute interval tee times, then the other player will have to wait at least 1 full minute before he can hit, likely 2 or 3 more minutes. I am not saying it did not work for you, but I just can't see it working any better than large tee time spacings would work.

As far as the idea of 2-ball groups in the morning, that idea just would not fly. Even if you go with 5 minute tee time intervals, the loss of revenue for the golf course would be too great. You couldn't charge double the fee for that starting time, so the course would be financially far better off to just keep the groups in 4somes.

[Tom Huckaby]

In the end... I am with you, Cliff.  Speed of play does trump handicap issues.  Heck most golfers at courses like this don't have official handicaps anyway.  Thus one aims for the greater good. I was just giving advice for betting purposes mainly.   

Tom,

I see you've finally come to agree with me on the handicap issue; don't count casual rounds for your handicap! Well done.

Yeah Pete, that's exactly what I said.   

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