[Tim Nugent]

Garland, my bad, I was thinking "just make the penalty the same - ie 2 strokes" just lose the hassle of walking back 250 yds and pissing off the guys already waiting on the tee plus the guys your playing with who have to wait for you to walk back and play to where they have already been for 5 min.

[D_Malley]

"D-Malley, sounds typical for a private club.  Don't think it has much use in public/resort as the players tend to be different - especially if there are lots of courses to choose from."

Tim- please explain why this policy would not work at a public.
my course is a high volume municiple.  it is a old style course with alot of repeat customers.

[John Moore II]

...
1) get rid of OB.  Stroke and distance is a killer.  Just play it as a lateral.  the penalty is the same.
...

Guess you don't understand the rules of golf!

The penalty is more or less the same, they are both 1 stroke penalties. So just drop up near to where you think the ball went out and carry on. Don't return to the tee, hit provisionals and that crap. We're talking daily play here, not tournaments.

We did away with all (well most) of our out of bounds at Mid South. Residential property was not out of bounds. It was played as a Temporary Immovable Obstruction, allows players a free drop outside of the property and back on the golf course. It works pretty well.

Sorry John,

Played as a lateral, my next stroke is #3. Whereas played as OB I could only have reached there in 3, and my next stroke is #4.

Garland--I don't need you to tell me what the rules are, I know them pretty well. The penalty for each is ONE STROKE. Only the drop options are different. With a lateral hazard you can drop 2 clublengths from where the ball entered the hazard, equidistant on the opposite side of the hazard, behind the hazard keeping the point the ball entered between yourself and the hole (though on a lateral hazard, not a real option in most cases) or replay the shot from the previous location. With out of bounds, the only option is to replay the shot from the previous location. Just go back to your rule book and read rules 26 and 27. Those two will tell you the penalty is 1 stroke for either infraction, just that the drop options are different.

But on a daily basis of playing a course, out of bounds penalties are foolish. They are a terrible waste of time. Actually, I played a high school tournament once that said rather than stroke and distance, you could drop at the spot nearest to where the ball went out of bounds under penalty of 2 strokes, which is essentially what stroke and distance is. Interesting local rule I thought.

[Tom Huckaby]

JKM:  you are oh so right about the wisdom of playing everything lateral in casual play on crowded courses. Of course be careful... that's another thing I have stated several times in here over the years, and also got a reamed rectum from the rules purists for so stating.  Welcome to the dark side.

Interesting local rule you played also... man it is HUGELY abusable though... think about the arguments that could occur over proper drop spots... which of course has to the largest reason the OB/lost ball rule is what it is, no?

[John Moore II]

JKM:  you are oh so right about the wisdom of playing everything lateral in casual play on crowded courses. Of course be careful... that's another thing I have stated several times in here over the years, and also got a reamed rectum from the rules purists for so stating.  Welcome to the dark side.

Interesting local rule you played also... man it is HUGELY abusable though... think about the arguments that could occur over proper drop spots... which of course has to the largest reason the OB/lost ball rule is what it is, no?

Well, they didn't make mention of what to do in the case of a lost ball. But in general, you are basically using the same drop procedure you would use for a lateral hazard but under penalty of 2 strokes. In that way, the controversy over proper drop spot would be no different than what it might be in the case of a lateral hazard. Plus, I was always the #1 or #2 guy on my team, and typically our 4,5,6 seeds didn't change either. So, we played with the same guys in basically every event. We knew how far each other hit the ball and such, plus, we were pretty cool about letting them drop. I mean, the guy just hit one onto someones back porch, we don't have to get too specific about where he drops. He's dropping in the woods either way and is going to be luck to make 5 or 6 at best, no need to rake him over the coals.

I mean, as an example, take a hole like 17 at Cypress. Player starts his ball somewhere way left of the cypress trees but hits some wicked banana slice into the rocks/ocean. How do you determine exactly where the ball went out? You can't, just just estimate. The procedure we would have used for OB is the same.

[Tom Huckaby]

JKM:

Yes it COULD work out as you say, in the conditions you state.

However, the potential for abuse remains way too rife, particularly in case of lost ball.  And the reason is simple.. blind shot or result otherwise not clearly seen - then what do you do?

With water hazard you at least have some procedure for this; but more importantly the instances of not knowing where a ball entered a hazard have to be very very few.  Lost balls for very unclear reasons happens quite often.

TH

[Cliff Hamm]

Blackstone National, a quality Rees Jones public course in Massachusetts, does just that.  While driving areas are generally substantial, fairways are bordered by trees and at times woods.  They are all staked as lateral hazards.  It is unusual to take longer than 4.5 hours and is often quicker.  10 minute tee times and lateral hazards certainly help.  Also, the rangers are visible.  While they don't do a lot on their own, if asked will get a group moving and my experience has been that they are quite successful.

[Tom Huckaby]

Blackstone National, a quality Rees Jones public course in Massachusetts, does just that.  While driving areas are generally substantial, fairways are bordered by trees and at times woods.  They are all staked as lateral hazards.  It is unusual to take longer than 4.5 hours and is often quicker.  10 minute tee times and lateral hazards certainly help.  Also, the rangers are visible.  While they don't do a lot on their own, if asked will get a group moving and my experience has been that they are quite successful.

That is cool... but herein lies the other problem....

If those rules are followed, the regulars there have artificially low handicaps, as they achieve artificially low scores.  Course rating is typically done under the real rules of golf... which do not allow such markings.  Therefore the course must be rated a bit HIGHER than how they actually play it... they achieve low scores based on difference from high rating.... but more importantly,they achieve artificially low scores when they drop like a lateral for something that really should be stroke and distance.

Bet heavily against these guys.

It's a large problem here in CA; many courses also do this.

TH

[John Moore II]

JKM:

Yes it COULD work out as you say, in the conditions you state.

However, the potential for abuse remains way too rife, particularly in case of lost ball.  And the reason is simple.. blind shot or result otherwise not clearly seen - then what do you do?

With water hazard you at least have some procedure for this; but more importantly the instances of not knowing where a ball entered a hazard have to be very very few.  Lost balls for very unclear reasons happens quite often.

TH

Yes, you could abuse it, of course. Like I said, I don't remember what the procedure for lost ball was. But in the case of OB, if they guy hits some big duck hook right towards someones back door, its fairly obvious that he is OB, and some place nearby is fair enough to drop under penalty.

As far as lost ball, I should say as long as the group can agree its ok. I mean, if the guy hits one near the rough and we can't find it, just make an estimation and drop there. Something like 225 yards off the tee in the rough. I mean, even if he holes out from there, its par; thats not likely to happen.

Its not the best rule to use, but in our situation, it was fair enough.

[Tom Huckaby]

JKM:

Yes it COULD work out as you say, in the conditions you state.

However, the potential for abuse remains way too rife, particularly in case of lost ball.  And the reason is simple.. blind shot or result otherwise not clearly seen - then what do you do?

With water hazard you at least have some procedure for this; but more importantly the instances of not knowing where a ball entered a hazard have to be very very few.  Lost balls for very unclear reasons happens quite often.

TH

Yes, you could abuse it, of course. Like I said, I don't remember what the procedure for lost ball was. But in the case of OB, if they guy hits some big duck hook right towards someones back door, its fairly obvious that he is OB, and some place nearby is fair enough to drop under penalty.

As far as lost ball, I should say as long as the group can agree its ok. I mean, if the guy hits one near the rough and we can't find it, just make an estimation and drop there. Something like 225 yards off the tee in the rough. I mean, even if he holes out from there, its par; thats not likely to happen.

Its not the best rule to use, but in our situation, it was fair enough.

JKM:  I am absolutely not doubting that in your situation it is fair enough.

I am rather just trying to explain why it can't be a normal rule, or a changed rule.

Think of it in an adversarial situation... as much competitive play is... that is, the group not being so agreeable. 

But bottom line is that the current rule obviates the need for the group to be agreeable or not... which somewhat sadly is the best and really only way to do the rule.

TH

[Pete Lavallee]

Yes, following the rules does tend to slow down the game doesn't it!

Earlier in the thread many suggested match play as a way to speed up the game. Although it's true that in a casual game of "ready golf, match play" you can play a little quicker; playing a match by the rules adds time to the round. Here in So. Cal we have interclub Team Play in the begining of the year and matches take 5 hours because we play by the rules. We have four balls in play and have two individual and one team match going for a total of 6 points per match. If you don't concede your opponents putt he will invariably have to mark and putt out latter. This does take time. There was an article in the SCGA's Fore Magazine this month lamenting the poor pace of play in the Team Play Matches. It provided all the usual reminders to be ready when it's your turn to play or putt, but had a very unusual suggestion for what to do when you fallen off the pace and have lost touch with the group in front of you after trying unsucessfully to catch up. It suggested that both playeers hit their drives and then when in the fairway agree to halve the hole, pick up their balls and move to the next tee, where if they had not caught up they should again drive off and when in the fairway agree to halve the hole, pick up and move on. They did indicate that the players can't agree to halve the hole before teeing off, as this would be a violation of the rules. I thought this was by far the craziest suggestion I've ever heard  and if golf has come to this we really have lost our way.

[Tom Huckaby]

Golf has come to this in sadly too many instances... and yes we have lost our way in the same.

The good news is, the instances remain exceptions.

I too play team matches... if you get someone unclear on the rules oh yes it can make for a long day.  Thankfully most get it, or can be taught.

TH

[John Moore II]

JKM:

Yes it COULD work out as you say, in the conditions you state.

However, the potential for abuse remains way too rife, particularly in case of lost ball.  And the reason is simple.. blind shot or result otherwise not clearly seen - then what do you do?

With water hazard you at least have some procedure for this; but more importantly the instances of not knowing where a ball entered a hazard have to be very very few.  Lost balls for very unclear reasons happens quite often.

TH

Yes, you could abuse it, of course. Like I said, I don't remember what the procedure for lost ball was. But in the case of OB, if they guy hits some big duck hook right towards someones back door, its fairly obvious that he is OB, and some place nearby is fair enough to drop under penalty.

As far as lost ball, I should say as long as the group can agree its ok. I mean, if the guy hits one near the rough and we can't find it, just make an estimation and drop there. Something like 225 yards off the tee in the rough. I mean, even if he holes out from there, its par; thats not likely to happen.

Its not the best rule to use, but in our situation, it was fair enough.

JKM:  I am absolutely not doubting that in your situation it is fair enough.

I am rather just trying to explain why it can't be a normal rule, or a changed rule.

Think of it in an adversarial situation... as much competitive play is... that is, the group not being so agreeable. 

But bottom line is that the current rule obviates the need for the group to be agreeable or not... which somewhat sadly is the best and really only way to do the rule.

TH

Oh, I was not trying to say it should be a normal rule, its too vague a definition. But on a daily basis, among a group of friends or whatever, it could be a prefectly reasonable option.

[Tom Huckaby]

JKM:

Yes it COULD work out as you say, in the conditions you state.

However, the potential for abuse remains way too rife, particularly in case of lost ball.  And the reason is simple.. blind shot or result otherwise not clearly seen - then what do you do?

With water hazard you at least have some procedure for this; but more importantly the instances of not knowing where a ball entered a hazard have to be very very few.  Lost balls for very unclear reasons happens quite often.

TH

Yes, you could abuse it, of course. Like I said, I don't remember what the procedure for lost ball was. But in the case of OB, if they guy hits some big duck hook right towards someones back door, its fairly obvious that he is OB, and some place nearby is fair enough to drop under penalty.

As far as lost ball, I should say as long as the group can agree its ok. I mean, if the guy hits one near the rough and we can't find it, just make an estimation and drop there. Something like 225 yards off the tee in the rough. I mean, even if he holes out from there, its par; thats not likely to happen.

Its not the best rule to use, but in our situation, it was fair enough.

JKM:  I am absolutely not doubting that in your situation it is fair enough.

I am rather just trying to explain why it can't be a normal rule, or a changed rule.

Think of it in an adversarial situation... as much competitive play is... that is, the group not being so agreeable. 

But bottom line is that the current rule obviates the need for the group to be agreeable or not... which somewhat sadly is the best and really only way to do the rule.

TH

Oh, I was not trying to say it should be a normal rule, its too vague a definition. But on a daily basis, among a group of friends or whatever, it could be a prefectly reasonable option.

100% agreed.
But I stated that many posts ago.

 

[Cliff Hamm]

Blackstone National, a quality Rees Jones public course in Massachusetts, does just that.  While driving areas are generally substantial, fairways are bordered by trees and at times woods.  They are all staked as lateral hazards.  It is unusual to take longer than 4.5 hours and is often quicker.  10 minute tee times and lateral hazards certainly help.  Also, the rangers are visible.  While they don't do a lot on their own, if asked will get a group moving and my experience has been that they are quite successful.

That is cool... but herein lies the other problem....

If those rules are followed, the regulars there have artificially low handicaps, as they achieve artificially low scores.  Course rating is typically done under the real rules of golf... which do not allow such markings.  Therefore the course must be rated a bit HIGHER than how they actually play it... they achieve low scores based on difference from high rating.... but more importantly,they achieve artificially low scores when they drop like a lateral for something that really should be stroke and distance.

Bet heavily against these guys.

It's a large problem here in CA; many courses also do this.

TH

Tom you're absolutely correct.  Often tee markers are also significantly in front of what the scorecard says. 

Do course ratings take into consideration local rules?

I might argue that speed of play takes precedence over handicap.  Maybe that is one of the significant factors slowing play down.  On occasion I have complained and responses in my group have included that 'oh they're probably playing a serious match'.  So what!  Slow play is slow play.  Banish handicaps and speed up play!

[Tom Huckaby]

In the end... I am with you, Cliff.  Speed of play does trump handicap issues.  Heck most golfers at courses like this don't have official handicaps anyway.  Thus one aims for the greater good. I was just giving advice for betting purposes mainly.   

And course rating CAN allow for local rules, if they are CORRECT local rules, that is, those set forth as allowable under the rules of golf. Marking treed and other areas that do not meet the definition of water hazards as water hazards is of course not an allowabe local rule.

[Pete Lavallee]

In the end... I am with you, Cliff.  Speed of play does trump handicap issues.  Heck most golfers at courses like this don't have official handicaps anyway.  Thus one aims for the greater good. I was just giving advice for betting purposes mainly.   

Tom,

I see you've finally come to agree with me on the handicap issue; don't count casual rounds for your handicap! Well done.

[Doug Siebert]

5) watch out for the "Drivable Par 4" that GCAers (including me) love.  9 out of 10 who wait for the green to clear will NOT driving the green.  And a few will miss so bad as to lose a ball (another 5 minutes loooking for it)

When I reach a driveable par 4 I often wait since I am pretty long and unless there's a lot of risk figure I'll do better on average from somewhere in the vicinity of the green versus laying up to 100 yards.  But I fail to drive the green far more often than 9 times out of 10, they are awfully small targets from 300+ yards, after all.  Are you suggesting that I should just hit away and not worry about bonking someone on the head, just because its pretty unlikely?

I don't really have a problem with people waiting in this case, so long as:

1) they aren't worried about the honor system, and let those guys who know they have any chance of driving the green to hit first regardless of their score on the last hole

2) they won't allow the gap created by that wait to remain in place but will close it up within a hole or two

I really don't see how a driveable par 4 is any worse than a long par 3.  At least a driveable par 4 should allow some players in most groups to play before the group ahead putts out.  With a long par 3 EVERYONE waits.  Hell, if you had a 230 yard par 3 and a group of seniors who only drive it 180, they'll still wait just because its a par 3.

[Doug Siebert]

So what about lengthing tee time intervals throughout the day?  Start with 6 minutes for the first hour, 7 minutes for the next hour, then 8 minutes until noon and 9 minutes for the the rest of the day.  Don't allow someone to reserve a time in the first hour unless they've already proven themselves capable of keeping up in the second hour, and must proven themselves in the 8 minute slot before getting a second hour 7 minute slot.

This doesn't really work out great for me since I prefer to play in the afternoons anyway and wouldn't play in the first hour after sunrise if you put a gun to my head, but it seems to make sense for the course in terms of maximizing revenue given that 6 or 7 minute times won't work most places as general policy.

[John Moore II]

So what about lengthing tee time intervals throughout the day?  Start with 6 minutes for the first hour, 7 minutes for the next hour, then 8 minutes until noon and 9 minutes for the the rest of the day.  Don't allow someone to reserve a time in the first hour unless they've already proven themselves capable of keeping up in the second hour, and must proven themselves in the 8 minute slot before getting a second hour 7 minute slot.

This doesn't really work out great for me since I prefer to play in the afternoons anyway and wouldn't play in the first hour after sunrise if you put a gun to my head, but it seems to make sense for the course in terms of maximizing revenue given that 6 or 7 minute times won't work most places as general policy.

I think a graduated system like that could work. But, the system of not allowing certain people to play in the early times and such would  not work at a public course, and graduated times would be silly at a private one. The reason I don't think the enforcement policy would not work is that it would be too difficult to maintain a database of players who can and can't play at certain times. Plus, what happens when someone calls and says 'I need a tee time before 8, I can't play after 8, got 4 of us' And you have an open tee time at 7:20. I'm filling the teetime. At a private club, that can work, but at a public facility, I just don't think its an option.

But the difference in times I think would work fine.

[Garland Bayley]

Deleted. I see Tom and John pretty well hashed out the issue.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I've never seen anything less than 10 minute spacings in teetimes here in Germany. Are shorter intervals a US specialty or does it happen elsewhere as well? Anyway, we still have plenty of slow play, so while longer intervals may help, they are not the cure-all.

There's a 9-hole executive course here where they have 15 minute intervals. The course is all of 1800 yards long and on a fateful day last summer it took me 2.5 hours to get round. Granted, it was a shotgun tournament, but can anyone beat that number? That computes to 12 yards per minute!

It's actually quite funny to watch the shenanigans people come up with in order to lose THAT much time. I plan on playing some more of these events this summer, it does wonders for my mental game. Anyone who can sustain a pace of 12 yards per minute for an extended period of time will be a strong competitor in match play.

Ulrich

[Michael Powers]

Pat...culture is the key.  Public courses have a culture also.  Some are quicker than others and not just because of the design.  The key is to change the culture and that must be done with expectations and marshals. 

 Played a course and complained to the marshal about a group holding everyone up and was told that the group was a bunch of older gentleman and they always played slowly.  Needless to say the marshal did nothing. 

Too many times I see marshals on carts doing nothing but filling water.  They go by groups oblivious that a hole is open.  The culture needs to change and that begins with marshals who do their job.

Filling water??  Never saw a ranger filling water, but I have seen them pull out their 40 foot ball retrievers and spend the day ball hawking.  No wonder my divers are always coming up short.

[John Moore II]

Pat...culture is the key.  Public courses have a culture also.  Some are quicker than others and not just because of the design.  The key is to change the culture and that must be done with expectations and marshals. 

 Played a course and complained to the marshal about a group holding everyone up and was told that the group was a bunch of older gentleman and they always played slowly.  Needless to say the marshal did nothing. 

Too many times I see marshals on carts doing nothing but filling water.  They go by groups oblivious that a hole is open.  The culture needs to change and that begins with marshals who do their job.

Filling water??  Never saw a ranger filling water, but I have seen them pull out their 40 foot ball retrievers and spend the day ball hawking.  No wonder my divers are always coming up short.

I've seen rangers filling water, done it myself. Ive been assigned, on hot days, to both ride around and make sure our jugs on course were full and fill them if necessary and also ride around with a 10 gallon Igloo jug on the cart to give water to people in between on course stations. The big jugs I can understand, but riding around with a water jug on the cart, that was silly.

[Tim Nugent]

Doug S. by saying 9/10 missthe green on short 4's, I wasn't implying that you should go ahead and hit - that's just plain stupid.  I was implying that even though they have a minute chance of actually hitting the green, they wait for it to clear just in case they manage that career shot.

Sure the same holds true for long par 3's except most people wouldn't even consider laying up on a 3 - hence the reason I don't do many long (over 220 yds) par 3s.

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