[Mark Smolens]

One of the best things I've ever seen on a golf course was at Pine Meadow in Mundelein, waiting to get out on a Saturday morning as a single.  There, the morning/permanent tee times get timed once on the front, at the turn, once again on the back, and at the end.  A group went by their first time over pace (I think it was 15 minutes), and came through the turn about 25 minutes behind the group in front of them, as I recall in about 2 hours and 25 minutes.

Frank Jemsek came out, stopped the group as they were driving their carts to the 10th tee, and advised them that they were behind their pace, and that they should go into the clubhouse and get a refund of 1/2 their greens fee.  I thought one of the guys was going to have a stroke, yelling and screaming, turning purple. "I'm never coming back. . .  "  Frank was calm but firm.  "We can't allow you to ruin the experience for the rest of the people playing behind you."  About 20 people on the putting green applauding as these morons walked to their cars.

If ownership isn't willing to piss the slow players off, and remove them if need be, then none of these "solutions" have a prayer of succeeding.

And don't listen to poor deluded Shivas with his tired cheater-line rants.  They have nothing whatsoever to do with pace of play.  Teach people to play ready golf, and you'll never have a problem with slow play. . .

[Cliff Hamm]

A pace of play story that says it all....  After a round that was 2 hours on the front and 2.5 on the back I was grumbling to my partners in the parking lot.  We waited on every shot on the back. One guy from the group holding us up overheard me.  With his cigar hanging out and trying to intimidate he confronted me rather agressively.  Said something to the affect - 'You talking about me?'. I said yes and that we waited on every shot which should not be. Loudly announced that his group played in 4.5 hours and therefore I had no right to complain. It is this mentality and ignorance that makes pace of play a huge problem.

[Ken McGlynn]

Josh

From the my perspective, most of it comes down to the player's inability to manage his or her own time efficiently, and very little to do with a course's mandates on play, tee time intervals, etc.

Here's some very simple ideas that we see all too little of:

1.  Walk whenever possible. Either carry a lightweight bag or take a caddie. And for heavensakes, walk swiftly out there.
2.  Observe. Know the yardage, where the winds are coming from and where the flagstick is located before you think about pulling a club.
3.  Hit it when ready, if 2 balls are launched at the same time so be it.
4.  On the tee, don't waste time figuring out if your 7 beat his 8...grab a club and go.
5.  On the green if you're going to read it from both sides do it immediately, not when it's your turn to putt.
6.  Continuous putt whenever possible.
7.  Have some sort of max, either personally or for your group. Does anyone outside of competitive play really have to grind to make that 13?
8.  If you're in a group of dawdlers, take the initiative and speak up: "guys we're moving too slow out here".
9.  When in doubt, always have another ball in pocket, and fire a provisional immediately.
10. Alter the preshot routine to something manageable. IMO we'd all play better with NO preshot machinations.

I'm sure with more time I'd come up with others. That's a quick 10 fixes we all could put into practice to start.

[Matt_Ward]

If a public / resort is not prepared to take the nuclear option -- removing and refunding the $$ of blatant transgressors -- then all the preliminaries is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Too many public / resort courses, from the ones I have played over the years, are more concerned with having any offense taken by those who abuse the course and leave others snoring in fairways waiting to play.

Facilities do not want to serve as policeman so that leaves the job to others such as the groups on the course.

Slow play has caused so much harm that many people will be looking for other rec options. When you couple slow play with excessive fees you see a game that can only appeal to the tiniest of groups.

[Jason Connor]

Here's mine, and I'm 100% serious.

Let players know that if a marshall sees a player sitting in a cart watching his opponent prepare to hit or hit while his own ball is within 30 yards, he will be removed from the course without refund.

It's bad enough that you don't walk the course.  Do you really need to be driven so close that the cart's shadow covers your ball?

[Doug Siebert]

archie,

I see nothing wrong with faster than 4 hour rounds being the ultimate goal.  But if you take a course that has a slow play problem with rounds that average say 5 hours it would be completely ridiculous to try for 3:15 like you suggest.  There's no way such a big change could happen overnight.

I think it would be completely reasonable to set a plan to improve by 30 minutes, and once that is accomplished, try to improve again.

But it would require some pretty funamental changes to the expectations of the average golfer to ever start seeing 3:00 to 3:15 rounds on courses with packed tee sheets, even at 10 minute intervals.  That would likely mean that over 90% of golfers would need to change their habits on the course to comply - and it only takes one group that doesn't do so to blow it for all the rest behind them.

If goals and expectations are set in a way that makes most people look at it and say "dream on" its probably not far from doing nothing, unless accompanied by heavy enforcement ala Matt and Jason's suggestions.  I don't disagree with such strong arm tactics....I've said for years if I ever won Powerball I'd buy a course and have it run that way, just because I think it could work by attracting the golfers who enjoy a faster round.

But this is not a tactic that could ever work across a large number of golf courses unless people want to see a lot of golf courses go under.  It will take years to get an appreciable majority of golfers into the right mindset, and you are kidding yourself if you think the guys going round in 5 hours today can be told to go around in 3:15 and will have any idea whatsoever how to go about doing so and still feel like they are enjoying the game.

[Niall C]

I genuinely don't have a problem with slow play, and that for me includes anything over 3.5 to 3.75 hrs for a round. Growing up in Scotland I was taught at a young age to do all the right things, be ready to play when its my turn, leave bag on the correct side of the green for the next tee etc.

Even with all that some people are going to be slower than others for various, usually to do with level of fitness. This I don't mind. What pisses me off is being not let through when clearly I'm going quicker than the group in front. The excuse is usually that there is another group in front and I would just be held up by them anyway.

Frankly this doesn't wash. Whats wrong with calling the (faster) group behind through, playing to the green together and then letting them put out first. If everyone let a faster group through it would mean that the slowest group wouldn't be dictating the pace of play for the whole course.

If all courses adopted this "rule", and I appreciate thats a big if, then all golfers could play at their own pace.

Niall

[PCCraig]

If a public / resort is not prepared to take the nuclear option -- removing and refunding the $$ of blatant transgressors -- then all the preliminaries is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Matt-

The point I made earlier is that there is no "nuclear" option.

Has anyone on this board ever seen a ranger actually remove slow players from a golf course? Nope...never. Because it doesn't happen.

And you are correct that the rest is essentially smoke and mirrors. So then is all the monitoring even worth it in the long run? Probably not.

[Tim Bert]

I am all for reasonable pace of play. Some of you guys are a bit over the top with time targets. I have been to Bandon three times. The day I show up there and have someone tell me the expected pace is 3.5 and then ride all over me to enforce it is the last time I show up.
I play my home course as a foursome regularly in about 3:40 so I am not part of a slow group by most people's standards.

Our normal pace at Bandon has been 4:00 to 4:10. We are less familiar with the course, there is more trouble, we aren't rushing home to see the kids, and we keep up. On the rare occasion when we get behind a slow patch and have to wait a lot and it takes 4.5 or more then something is wrong.

You guys that want to spend $200 on golf to run around a golf course to stop golfing as fast as possible are nuts in my opinion, but I would suggest if you ever go on golf trips that you book the first time of the morning! 

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Let me point out one episode -- in Morris County (NJ) a ranger was verbally assaulted by a young punk group that believed heaping verbal abuse back on a retired gent of 70 years old was perfectly OK.

I watched this situation and one of the people in my group contacted the clubhouse and asked that assistance be provided to the ranger in question.

What assistance was provided?

A police car was dispatched and came out to the scene. The punks who dressed down the ranger were then summarily dressed down by the officer and even still two of them continued on and on and on.

The officer told them to get into the police car IMMEDIATELY. I later found out their play was suspended for one month since they were county residents.

The lesson is a simple one ...

If you allow the inmate to run the asylum you will have a crzay house.

Manangement in nearly most cases -- can take proactive steps to send the message that speed of play is just as important as the speed in which a staff person collects your credit card before playing.

[PCCraig]

Pat:

Let me point out one episode -- in Morris County (NJ) a ranger was verbally assaulted by a young punk group that believed heaping verbal abuse back on a retired gent of 70 years old was perfectly OK.

I watched this situation and one of the people in my group contacted the clubhouse and asked that assistance be provided to the ranger in question.

What assistance was provided?

A police car was dispatched and came out to the scene. The punks who dressed down the ranger were then summarily dressed down by the officer and even still two of them continued on and on and on.

The officer told them to get into the police car IMMEDIATELY. I later found out their play was suspended for one month since they were county residents.

The lesson is a simple one ...

If you allow the inmate to run the asylum you will have a crzay house.

Manangement in nearly most cases -- can take proactive steps to send the message that speed of play is just as important as the speed in which a staff person collects your credit card before playing.

Matt that is a very extreme story. I'm not taking about mean kids screaming at a 70 year old. I'm talking about a group of four 50 year old professionals who are just plain slow. 

I highly doubt that if a ranger told me I was so slow I needed to leave the course, and I respond with a simple "no," that a police cruiser (maybe a club car) would roll up the cartpath and take me away. I'm not a lawyer, but what would be the offense? Slow play?? I think those kids were taken away for verbal assault, not slow play.

My point being if some retired vet gets on your case about being a little slow, and you say "listen, I understand I'm playing slow and I don't care, have a good one" there is nothing whatsoever that they can do...and every slow golfer with a cheater line knows this and calls their bluff.

[Ted Kramer]

One of the best things I've ever seen on a golf course was at Pine Meadow in Mundelein, waiting to get out on a Saturday morning as a single.  There, the morning/permanent tee times get timed once on the front, at the turn, once again on the back, and at the end.  A group went by their first time over pace (I think it was 15 minutes), and came through the turn about 25 minutes behind the group in front of them, as I recall in about 2 hours and 25 minutes.

Frank Jemsek came out, stopped the group as they were driving their carts to the 10th tee, and advised them that they were behind their pace, and that they should go into the clubhouse and get a refund of 1/2 their greens fee.  I thought one of the guys was going to have a stroke, yelling and screaming, turning purple. "I'm never coming back. . .  "  Frank was calm but firm.  "We can't allow you to ruin the experience for the rest of the people playing behind you."  About 20 people on the putting green applauding as these morons walked to their cars.

If ownership isn't willing to piss the slow players off, and remove them if need be, then none of these "solutions" have a prayer of succeeding.

And don't listen to poor deluded Shivas with his tired cheater-line rants.  They have nothing whatsoever to do with pace of play.  Teach people to play ready golf, and you'll never have a problem with slow play. . .

Love it.
Agree 100%.

-Ted

[PCCraig]

One of the best things I've ever seen on a golf course was at Pine Meadow in Mundelein, waiting to get out on a Saturday morning as a single.  There, the morning/permanent tee times get timed once on the front, at the turn, once again on the back, and at the end.  A group went by their first time over pace (I think it was 15 minutes), and came through the turn about 25 minutes behind the group in front of them, as I recall in about 2 hours and 25 minutes.

Frank Jemsek came out, stopped the group as they were driving their carts to the 10th tee, and advised them that they were behind their pace, and that they should go into the clubhouse and get a refund of 1/2 their greens fee.  I thought one of the guys was going to have a stroke, yelling and screaming, turning purple. "I'm never coming back. . .  "  Frank was calm but firm.  "We can't allow you to ruin the experience for the rest of the people playing behind you."  About 20 people on the putting green applauding as these morons walked to their cars.

If ownership isn't willing to piss the slow players off, and remove them if need be, then none of these "solutions" have a prayer of succeeding.

And don't listen to poor deluded Shivas with his tired cheater-line rants.  They have nothing whatsoever to do with pace of play.  Teach people to play ready golf, and you'll never have a problem with slow play. . .

Love it.
Agree 100%.

-Ted

"No"...and keep driving.

And who says that they were ruining the experience for the rest of the golfers behind them? I think Joe should of said that that group was ruining his cash flow.

P.S.- Pine Meadow is almost unplayable on a Saturday or Sunday morning because rangers there are such jerks.

And keep in mind I am a super duper fast golfer. I just don't play golf courses that I know are going to be packed, if you need to play a public course, and you want to play fast, either be the first person off the tee in the morning, or play twilight.

[Ken McGlynn]

The normal pace at Bandon of late has been 4:00 to 4:10. We are less familiar with the course, there is more trouble, we aren't rushing home to see the kids, and we keep up. On the rare occasion when we get behind a slow patch and have to wait a lot and it takes 4.5 or more then something is wrong.

Tim, with all due respect, the average time at BDGR these days is nowhere near your 4:00. You and your boys are way ahead of the curve. On a normal day here are the averages: Bandon Dunes - 4:30, Pacific Dunes - 4:45, and Bandon Trails - 4:50. And having played 10 holes at Old Macdonald, knowing that course and it's difficulty, you're looking 5:00 at the current rates.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

You missed my point by a country mile.

The point being made was that unless facilities (public / resort) are willing to go to the nuclear option (escort people off the course and refund their $$) when circumstances demand it then frankly all the preliminary steps are nothing more than smoke and mirror band-aids at best.

Need I remind you -- you said the following ... "Has anyone on this board ever seen a ranger actually remove slow players from a golf course? Nope...never. Because it doesn't happen."

Guess what Pat -- it does happen. Does it happen enough? No, because too many courses are not concerned with slow play to really make a lasting impact.

The problem Pat is that too few facilities really give a rats ass about slow play. Most people when admonished to play faster would do exactly that but keep in mind when you have 1-2% of those idiots who infect the course and nothing is really done to send a very clear and loud message that such behavior won't be tolerated.

In the situation I descibed the offenders were S-L-O-W to the max -- goofing off and doing as they pleased. The ranger did his job -- approached them and was quite civil (not all retirees are mind you) and then was accosted verbally.

In the example you provided -- it' simple -- if people thumb their noses and refuse to comply -- then a facility is well within their rights to ask them to leave if they faily to comply. It would be no different if management approached a person in a movie theater who refused to keep quiet and was gabbing away on a cel phone with their friends to the pain and suffering of those around him.

The problem is that management in most cases fails to act consistently an decisively when such selfsh people decide that they will "call their bluff."

I say fine -- let'em call the bluff -- then tell they need to leave and give them their money back. Those who have labored behind such slowpokes will applaud the action and spend more time and money at that place because their needs are given the highest priority.

[PCCraig]

Pat:

You missed my point by a country mile.

The point being made was that unless facilities (public / resort) are willing to go to the nuclear option (escort people off the course and refund their $$) when circumstances demand it then frankly all the preliminary steps are nothing more than smoke and mirror band-aids at best.

Need I remind you -- you said the following ... "Has anyone on this board ever seen a ranger actually remove slow players from a golf course? Nope...never. Because it doesn't happen."

Guess what Pat -- it does happen. Does it happen enough? No, because too many courses are not concerned with slow play to really make a lasting impact.

The problem Pat is that too few facilities really give a rats ass about slow play. Most people when admonished to play faster would do exactly that but keep in mind when you have 1-2% of those idiots who infect the course and nothing is really done to send a very clear and loud message that such behavior won't be tolerated.

In the situation I descibed the offenders were S-L-O-W to the max -- goofing off and doing as they pleased. The ranger did his job -- approached them and was quite civil (not all retirees are mind you) and then was accosted verbally.

In the example you provided -- it' simple -- if people thumb their noses and refuse to comply -- then a facility is well within their rights to ask them to leave if they faily to comply. It would be no different if management approached a person in a movie theater who refused to keep quiet and was gabbing away on a cel phone with their friends to the pain and suffering of those around him.

The problem is that management in most cases fails to act consistently an decisively when such selfsh people decide that they will "call their bluff."

I say fine -- let'em call the bluff -- then tell they need to leave and give them their money back. Those who have labored behind such slowpokes will applaud the action and spend more time and money at that place because their needs are given the highest priority.

Matt-

Perhaps I came off a little strong in my first posts. Again I feel the need to make the point that I have never been even warned by a ranger for slow play, I play fast, and I hate playing behind slow players. However...

I understand your point on more clubs using the "nuclear" option, taking the players off the course, and refunding their money. You're right that this should happen more often, however it is the biggest myth in the golfing world. Sure it has happened, but only in extreme cases. The reason golf courses and movie theatres want to refund a players money before they kick you out is because as long as a golf course takes a players money, the player is entitled to play the course...however long it takes.

The only way a public course could even allow itself to have the legal option to remove players on a consistent basis at will would be to have a players sign a contract at the start of the round.

I think the biggest problem with this thread is that everyone assumes that the only way to play golf is under 3.5 hours. The % of golfing public can't physically do it. I don't know how a 30 handicap can play in under 5 hours with the amount of strokes he or she takes.

Slow play is inevitable because golf is a slow game for the vast majority of golfers.

As I stated before, I think the biggest problem slow play creates are the people who believe they can cure it with clocks and rangers all over the course. The effort it takes to remove slow play from a public golf course is too great for the overall benefit of the course.

[Mark Smolens]

In our group (the Weekly Challenge Golf Tour), we play tournaments on most if not all of the good publics in the Chicago District.  According to their calculations (http://wcgt.com/Results2008/2008%20completion%20times2.htm) the average time for the last group, foursomes playing by the rules, putting everything, etc., was 4 hours and 36 minutes.  The average handicap for WCGT is probably 18, and the entire par flight (3 flights, tho you play with all handicaps in each group) is made up of 17 and above handicap players. 

Ready golf is strictly enforced, and the slow tournaments generally occur on courses where the public goes out before our group and slows us down.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Try to keep this in mind -- I'm not suggesting the nuclear option be invoked if people have a slight disagreement.

The issue is what type of CONSISTENT process is IMPLMENTED BY ALL LEVELS OF STAFF when such situation arise.

Too many facilities believe that having clocks and signs that alert people will do the trick. This is the same mentality when you see highway signs that say 55 mph is the max speed.

Pat, you make the critical error in believing that once people pay they are ENTITLED (my emphasis) to take "however long it takes." That is rubbish plain and simple.

In regards to your thoughts on signing some sort of agreement -- most courses that I am familiar with have such a agreement when you sign up to play there. You make yourself subject to the rules and conditions they provide.

The issue always goes back to whether MANAGEMENT has a total handle on what is happeniong ON THE COURSE EACH AND EVERYDAY. Far too often management allows the slowpokes to infect the course and not too far behind that is the 1-2% of people who believe boorish behavior is OK because they have paid their fees.

I'm not suggesting a prison mentality when playing -- but management needs to have a CONSISTENT PROCESS and be sure to ENFORCE IT as necessary. And should that mean refunding $$ and escorting people off property when circumstances warrant then so be it.

On your last point -- you can't have four hour golf in the States when you get all the distractions that invade the game. My God you have people who have to eat something every 4-5 holes like they were cattle grazing. The game is not about eating first and foremost and the golf a secondary component.

Pat, in regards to the 30-handicap types you mentioned -- it's simple. Have them play from tees that are W-E-L-L forward -- for example if a hole is 500 yards and the most forward tees are 400 yards -- have them start the hole at 350 yards -- even if that means literally teeing it up in the fairway and proceed from there.  
 
One other thing -- the messaging from management when people come to play should be reinforced CONSTANTLY and ENFORCED without hesitation to any person or group - no matter if they have been playing there since golf was invented.

Pat, your last statement that, "The effort (slow play) it takes to remove slow play from a public golf course is too great for the overall benefit of the course," is something I don't believe. The issue is whether staff / management really want to add $$ to their facility by being seen as a place that values faster players. Once a reputation of that type takes hold you'll get more players who don't want to be behind the creep and crawl slowpokes.

[Eric_Terhorst]

I think the biggest problem with this thread is that everyone assumes that the only way to play golf is under 3.5 hours. The % of golfing public can't physically do it. I don't know how a 30 handicap can play in under 5 hours with the amount of strokes he or she takes.

Wrong.  My Aunt and Uncle played golf into their 80s at a man-sized, difficult golf course.  They routinely played with caddies or carts in 3.5 hours or less.  She was a 36+ handicap.  My wife, a 30-handicapper, can hit two or three shots in the time I've observed it requires some idiots to get through a pre-shot routine.

Josh, the problem with slow players like the ones Mark Smolens observed getting booted off of Pine Meadow is that their stupidity is outweighed only by their lack of consideration for other golfers.  It's difficult to legislate fast play in the face of that kind of brain density.  There will always be one or three groups at a resort that fall into this category.  I wish you luck in pushing them along!

[Brian Cenci]

Based on some of my experiences, vast in dealing with slow play, here are some of my thoughts.

"ROUND KILLERS" (THINGS THAT SLOW UP PLAY):
* Twosomes - pair people up.  Back to back twosomes kills speed of play.
* People that don't do their "homework" when riding with someone prior to their shot or even putting. - When it's not your turn it doesn't mean you have to sit in the cart and watch the other guy/gal hit....go to your ball, get your yardage and as soon the person you're riding with hits, you hit.
* People that don't play the right tee based on their ability.
* People who read both sides of an eight foot putt for triple-bogie.  I know we all aren't at the same ability but know your game and act accordingly.
* People that use the same club in the fairway all the way to the green.  Never understood this as some people hit a 5 wood 50 yards every time down the fairway and after every shot whipe the club off, put the hear cover on, put it in their back and drive the 50 yards up the fairway.  Just keep the club in your hand.
* Cart path only restrictions
* People that sit in the middle of the fairway flirting with the bev cart chick while contemplating a purchase.  Pull off to the side so the group behind can hit up!

THINGS THAT DO NOTHING TO SPEED UP PLAY:
* Marshalls, Player's Assistance....whatever you want to call them.  They don't work and many times people just get mad when they come around.
* Clocks, "your tee time should be ____" signs around the course telling you where you're at relative to some courses wishes of pace of play.

THINGS THAT HELP PACE OF PLAY:
* Playing with someone who is fast...always pushes the rest of the group.
* Play everything as a lateral hazard under local rules.
* Forecaddies on certain holes
* Rangefinders (for those that know how to use them).  Instand yardages, never have to look for anything.
* "Help a brotha' out"- if your buddy is in the bunker lying 5 and your on the green for a par putt then go over and rake his bunker for him after he's done.  People love to sit on the green and watch others get to where they are at.

[PCCraig]

Pat:

Try to keep this in mind -- I'm not suggesting the nuclear option be invoked if people have a slight disagreement.

The issue is what type of CONSISTENT process is IMPLMENTED BY ALL LEVELS OF STAFF when such situation arise.

Which doesn't happen.  

Too many facilities believe that having clocks and signs that alert people will do the trick. This is the same mentality when you see highway signs that say 55 mph is the max speed.

I agree, rangers act in the same way. They be present, but it is very rare that they do anything other than watch...would you not agree? And even if the ranger wants to kick someone off the course...he can't, only the pro or GM can do that, so what good is a ranger?  

Pat, you make the critical error in believing that once people pay they are ENTITLED (my emphasis) to take "however long it takes." That is rubbish plain and simple.

 Matt, they 1000% are ENTITLED to play be there and to be playing golf. If they pay the greens fee at a PUBLIC golf course, a slow goler is just as ENTITLED to play that course as someone who wants to play a 3 hour round. They become entitled because the course accepts their $$$, and the course, by accepting the cash, agreed to let them play the course. I agree that it is a pig-headed and selfish belief of many, however it is the dirty little secret of public golf. As so long as the course is public and open to all players, it has to allow slow play.  

In regards to your thoughts on signing some sort of agreement -- most courses that I am familiar with have such a agreement when you sign up to play there. You make yourself subject to the rules and conditions they provide.

Where? On a board somewhere in the pro shop? Do you think the same golfer that takes 6 hours to play golf actually reads it or cares?

The issue always goes back to whether MANAGEMENT has a total handle on what is happeniong ON THE COURSE EACH AND EVERYDAY. Far too often management allows the slowpokes to infect the course and not too far behind that is the 1-2% of people who believe boorish behavior is OK because they have paid their fees.

What you still don't understand is that management doesn't want or have the time to "have a total handle" on pace of play every single day. Getting back to the first post by Josh, management generally wants to put up clocks, stack rangers, count how long the rounds are taking because they feel they have to. However it has almost nothing to do with management.

Golf has become a SLOW GAME. You and the rest of us on GCA.com are the minority. The majority of golfers never even understand that a 5 hour round is slow. Which goes back to the ideal of a fast playing "cluture" at a course...which is almost impossible at a normal public course that is daily fee.

I'm not suggesting a prison mentality when playing -- but management needs to have a CONSISTENT PROCESS and be sure to ENFORCE IT as necessary. And should that mean refunding $$ and escorting people off property when circumstances warrant then so be it.

If you actually did that for all the golfers playing in over 4.5 hours your golf course would be half empty and eventually bankrupt.  

On your last point -- you can't have four hour golf in the States when you get all the distractions that invade the game. My God you have people who have to eat something every 4-5 holes like they were cattle grazing. The game is not about eating first and foremost and the golf a secondary component.

I never made that point. But I could eat a five course meal and still play in under 4 hours.  

Pat, in regards to the 30-handicap types you mentioned -- it's simple. Have them play from tees that are W-E-L-L forward -- for example if a hole is 500 yards and the most forward tees are 400 yards -- have them start the hole at 350 yards -- even if that means literally teeing it up in the fairway and proceed from there.  
 
 I agree, but short of ASSIGNING a set of tees to a player that is not realistic. The point of golf is essentially boiled down to one thing...being social. If someone told me to tee up from the start of the fairway while everyone else was on the back tee I would say you are nuts.  

One other thing -- the messaging from management when people come to play should be reinforced CONSTANTLY and ENFORCED without hesitation to any person or group - no matter if they have been playing there since golf was invented.

And piss off your core customer base so some dude who doesn't play there often but demands a fast round can play and peace out or another member wants to play there a little faster? No way...if you are a business owner you don't DEMAND your customers pay faster or they go somewhere else. You do everything you can to keep people coming back.  

Pat, your last statement that, "The effort (slow play) it takes to remove slow play from a public golf course is too great for the overall benefit of the course," is something I don't believe. The issue is whether staff / management really want to add $$ to their facility by being seen as a place that values faster players. Once a reputation of that type takes hold you'll get more players who don't want to be behind the creep and crawl slowpokes.

Catering to fast golfers doesn't add $$$$!!!!!  

[PCCraig]

I think the biggest problem with this thread is that everyone assumes that the only way to play golf is under 3.5 hours. The % of golfing public can't physically do it. I don't know how a 30 handicap can play in under 5 hours with the amount of strokes he or she takes.

Wrong.  My Aunt and Uncle played golf into their 80s at a man-sized, difficult golf course.  They routinely played with caddies or carts in 3.5 hours or less.  She was a 36+ handicap.  My wife, a 30-handicapper, can hit two or three shots in the time I've observed it requires some idiots to get through a pre-shot routine.

Do your Aunt and Uncle play at a private club?

And I agree with the second point...my fiance plays faster than myself because she hasn't missed a fairway since 1999.

[Tim Bert]

The normal pace at Bandon of late has been 4:00 to 4:10. We are less familiar with the course, there is more trouble, we aren't rushing home to see the kids, and we keep up. On the rare occasion when we get behind a slow patch and have to wait a lot and it takes 4.5 or more then something is wrong.

Tim, with all due respect, the average time at BDGR these days is nowhere near your 4:00. You and your boys are way ahead of the curve. On a normal day here are the averages: Bandon Dunes - 4:30, Pacific Dunes - 4:45, and Bandon Trails - 4:50. And having played 10 holes at Old Macdonald, knowing that course and it's difficulty, you're looking 5:00 at the current rates.

Ken - I know the numbers I gave are probably lower than the average at Bandon.  We've been fortunate enough to be first off a few times and also played some late evening round at 5:00PM or so when there aren't many out there.  The afternoon rounds at 12 or 1 have definitely been the slowest.

My initial point, from which I originally strayed, is that when we are talking about resorts like Bandon lets try to solve the problem of a 4 or 4:15 hour round - not a 3.5 hour round.  3.5 is probably not only unachievable, but quite possibly as undesirable for as many people as a 5 hour round.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Allow me to help you out -- the point of this thread was "best ideas for improving speed of play."

I've done just that.

I have to say, that with all due respect, it's you who fails to see what possibilities there are if management took the time and effort to do so.

You critique me by saying that a consistent process and one implemented by all levels of staff "doesn't happen" -- hello Pat, I agree with that. The issue is getting such a situation TO HAPPEN.

Rangers do nothing because most facilities DO NOT THOROUGHLY train their staffs when engaging directly with the public. Too many facilities have people who are former military / police types who bark at people.

However, I have been at facilities where rangers or the more politicall correct term "player assistants" can move things along before bottlenecks develop.

The nuclear options would only happen after the ranger has observed and warned players of their responsibilities to keep up with the play. There are other carrot and stick options that can be used as well prior to banishing such people.

The rangers act as the early warning light on what's happening on the course. Unfortunately, too many pros and GM's are always "busy" with other matters when the concern for their customers on the course is central. Show me a pro or GM who doesn't regularly ride their course and you have someone who is utterly disconnected.

Pat, I'll say this again -- most public / resort courses have a basic principle on what the rules / regulations are for playing there -- they are either located in the shop itself or near the teeing areas. If you are an inexperienced player or one has been unable to keep pace the facility reserves the right to refund your money and have you come back when things are not that busy.

Pat, I have to ask you this -- when you say -- "However, it has almost nothing to do with management."

Are you for real or what ?

Who owns the place = management !

Who sets the terms and conditions for playing there = managment !

When you let the inmates run the asylum the net result is bedlam.

Pat, golf has become a "SLOW GAME" because management has instituted obstacles that cause so much of that to happen.

1). Mandating carts to cart paths

2). Providing a flotilla of food and beverage carts to the point where the golf course is nothing more than a food & drink festival which is completely averse to the actual playing of the game

3). Failure to have staff properly orientated on dealing with the customers and in making sure that appropriate benchmarks for pace of play are rigorously enforced.

Pat, I never suggested 3.5 hour golf. But breaking the five hour round is doable if people sustain the focus. Education is step one - followed by a consistent enforcement process for those who think reasonable speed is not doable.

Let me address this idea in assigning people certain tees -- it's meant to ADD to their enjoyment, the people in their group and the rest of the people playing the course.

THAT'S WHAT STAFF NEEDS TO DO WHEN FACING SUCH SLOW PLAY. EXPLAIN THE SITUATION AND HOW A REASONABLE EFFORT CAN ADD TO THE ENJOYMENT OF ALL. Most people will understand that. Those who don't need to be given their money back and told to come back some time in the future.

Pat, if your "core customer" is a slowpoke then I don't want that person as a customer nor would any real golf facility of any quality standing. Under your thinking it's better to accomodate that type then understand the massive inconvenience and frustration being caused by the overwhelming number of people who unfortunately get stuck behind these inconsiderate slobs.

Pat, you must not understand customer service -- I DON'T WANT PEOPLE COMING BACK WHO THINK SIX HOUR GOLF IS OK. That's why golf is suffering now. It has become t-e-d-i-o-u-s-l-y slow and way too expensive for many. Each time slow pokes are enabled to continue with their behavior it drives more and more people away from golf.

Under your thinking you simply accept people to do whatever they wish to do because they paid a fee. That thinking doesn't work because you paid for a driver's license or for a ticket to a Broadway show or movie, etc, etc.

Pat, the key is taking the existing mindset and making the game play out at a reasonable pace -- getting under five hours is doable. However, if you believe that, "Catering to fast golfers doesn't add $$$$!!!!!" -- then continue to cowtow to the slowpokes -- you can be sure that will really drive the interest in the game even more into decline. 

[PCCraig]

Pat:

Allow me to help you out -- the point of this thread was "best ideas for improving speed of play."

I've done just that.

I have to say, that with all due respect, it's you who fails to see what possibilities there are if management took the time and effort to do so.


You critique me by saying that a consistent process and one implemented by all levels of staff "doesn't happen" -- hello Pat, I agree with that. The issue is getting such a situation TO HAPPEN.


Rangers do nothing because most facilities DO NOT THOROUGHLY train their staffs when engaging directly with the public. Too many facilities have people who are former military / police types who bark at people.


However, I have been at facilities where rangers or the more politicall correct term "player assistants" can move things along before bottlenecks develop.


The nuclear options would only happen after the ranger has observed and warned players of their responsibilities to keep up with the play. There are other carrot and stick options that can be used as well prior to banishing such people.

The rangers act as the early warning light on what's happening on the course. Unfortunately, too many pros and GM's are always "busy" with other matters when the concern for their customers on the course is central. Show me a pro or GM who doesn't regularly ride their course and you have someone who is utterly disconnected.

Pat, I'll say this again -- most public / resort courses have a basic principle on what the rules / regulations are for playing there -- they are either located in the shop itself or near the teeing areas. If you are an inexperienced player or one has been unable to keep pace the facility reserves the right to refund your money and have you come back when things are not that busy.

Pat, I have to ask you this -- when you say -- "However, it has almost nothing to do with management."

Are you for real or what ?

Who owns the place = management !

Who sets the terms and conditions for playing there = managment !

When you let the inmates run the asylum the net result is bedlam.

Pat, golf has become a "SLOW GAME" because management has instituted obstacles that cause so much of that to happen.

1). Mandating carts to cart paths

2). Providing a flotilla of food and beverage carts to the point where the golf course is nothing more than a food & drink festival which is completely averse to the actual playing of the game

3). Failure to have staff properly orientated on dealing with the customers and in making sure that appropriate benchmarks for pace of play are rigorously enforced.

Pat, I never suggested 3.5 hour golf. But breaking the five hour round is doable if people sustain the focus. Education is step one - followed by a consistent enforcement process for those who think reasonable speed is not doable.

Let me address this idea in assigning people certain tees -- it's meant to ADD to their enjoyment, the people in their group and the rest of the people playing the course.

THAT'S WHAT STAFF NEEDS TO DO WHEN FACING SUCH SLOW PLAY. EXPLAIN THE SITUATION AND HOW A REASONABLE EFFORT CAN ADD TO THE ENJOYMENT OF ALL. Most people will understand that. Those who don't need to be given their money back and told to come back some time in the future.

Pat, if your "core customer" is a slowpoke then I don't want that person as a customer nor would any real golf facility of any quality standing. Under your thinking it's better to accomodate that type then understand the massive inconvenience and frustration being caused by the overwhelming number of people who unfortunately get stuck behind these inconsiderate slobs.

Pat, you must not understand customer service -- I DON'T WANT PEOPLE COMING BACK WHO THINK SIX HOUR GOLF IS OK. That's why golf is suffering now. It has become t-e-d-i-o-u-s-l-y slow and way too expensive for many. Each time slow pokes are enabled to continue with their behavior it drives more and more people away from golf.

Under your thinking you simply accept people to do whatever they wish to do because they paid a fee. That thinking doesn't work because you paid for a driver's license or for a ticket to a Broadway show or movie, etc, etc.

Pat, the key is taking the existing mindset and making the game play out at a reasonable pace -- getting under five hours is doable. However, if you believe that, "Catering to fast golfers doesn't add $$$$!!!!!" -- then continue to cowtow to the slowpokes -- you can be sure that will really drive the interest in the game even more into decline. 

Bottom line in this case is that fast golfers can be just as ignorant and bull headed as the slow golfers.

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