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Tom Huckaby

Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2009, 02:28:28 PM »
Two simple rules: Only two-ball play and stroke-play gives way to match-play.

Mark - with all due respect... that has zero chance of occuring here in the States.. at a US resort (which is what is being asked about) I just can't see many abiding with it.

Private club, particularly in UK?  Love it. Perfect.

Outside of that?  Hmmmmmmmmmm

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2009, 02:29:48 PM »
This is my idea.

Any group behind the pace of play regulations is simply removed from the course.
No warnings, no arguements, no excuses.
Their money is refunded on a "pro-rated, by hole" amount.

Good, fast, courteous players will love your course and be loyal customers.
Lousy, slow, selfish players will not play at your course.

-Ted

That would never work. Good luck trying to remove a golfer who just paid $100, is playing bad, and has lost 10 golf balls already.

It wouldn't be smart for the golf course either. The key is speeding the slow group up, not allowing fast players to play as fast as possible.
H.P.S.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2009, 02:33:28 PM »
Tom, But think of the cachet of being a resort totally unlike any other in the country, and trade on the exclusively British image - plus fours have precedence over slacks, discounted green fees for those who drive up in a Morgan, no practice ground, warm beer, slow greens, gorse....

Tom Huckaby

Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2009, 02:35:15 PM »
Tom, But think of the cachet of being a resort totally unlike any other in the country, and trade on the exclusively British image - plus fours have precedence over slacks, discounted green fees for those who drive up in a Morgan, no practice ground, warm beer, slow greens, gorse....

OK... maybe it MIGHT work at Bandon....well said...  still.... they likely still get many bitching about being "forced" to walk.  I'd continue to tread lightly.  I also fear for the health of the first match play group that demands to play through a stroke play group....


Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2009, 02:45:55 PM »
Tom, Given the weakness of the pound sterling all Americans can now be sent on a compulsory course to play Royal West Norfolk, Hunstanton, Aldeburgh and Royal Worlington before they are allowed out on a resort course in the States. They'll then appreciate the advantages of the system - and perhaps they should come in winter, when the wind whistles directly from the Urals without a hill to deflect it en route. Mind you, I have experienced seriously low temperatures in Chicago - our efforts are pathetic in comparison - it's a slower death, but death is inevitable, nonetheless. Time for supper. Mark.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2009, 02:51:06 PM »
This is my idea.

Any group behind the pace of play regulations is simply removed from the course.
No warnings, no arguements, no excuses.
Their money is refunded on a "pro-rated, by hole" amount.

Good, fast, courteous players will love your course and be loyal customers.
Lousy, slow, selfish players will not play at your course.

-Ted

That would never work. Good luck trying to remove a golfer who just paid $100, is playing bad, and has lost 10 golf balls already.

It wouldn't be smart for the golf course either. The key is speeding the slow group up, not allowing fast players to play as fast as possible.

OK, I'll lets say it like this.
If those were the rules, I'd want to play there.
I play fast enough, not speed golf, but fast enough.
I'm courteous.
And I detest slow play.

All that stuff about speeding up the slow group doesn't work as far as I can tell.
Pace of play is AWFUL on most public golf courses in the tri state area.
Show up at Lido on Long Island at around 11a on Saturday in the middle of July.
6+ hours to get around GUARANTEED.
No course is willing to take a hard line on the issue and tell slow players that they simply aren't welcome. I imagine that the courses are afraid of losing money. I'd bet that the first one that takes my advice is PACKED and with good, fast, courteous players.

-Ted
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 02:54:33 PM by Ted Kramer »

Tom Huckaby

Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2009, 02:58:03 PM »
Mark, well said.  I bow in the presence of brilliance.  Enjoy the supper.   ;D

Ted, I am with you in spirit, believe me I am.  I am just not holding my breath any of this takes place.  Oh I have lobbied for such things at my home course, home of the 7 minute intervals and 6 hour rounds....


PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2009, 03:12:18 PM »
Has anyone figured out yet that maybe there are band-aids for slow play, but really no cure.

The only places where slow play does not occur is within private golf clubs in which fast play is engrained in its culture.
H.P.S.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2009, 03:19:35 PM »
Pat...culture is the key.  Public courses have a culture also.  Some are quicker than others and not just because of the design.  The key is to change the culture and that must be done with expectations and marshals. 

 Played a course and complained to the marshal about a group holding everyone up and was told that the group was a bunch of older gentleman and they always played slowly.  Needless to say the marshal did nothing. 

Too many times I see marshals on carts doing nothing but filling water.  They go by groups oblivious that a hole is open.  The culture needs to change and that begins with marshals who do their job.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2009, 03:36:27 PM »
Pat...culture is the key.  Public courses have a culture also.  Some are quicker than others and not just because of the design.  The key is to change the culture and that must be done with expectations and marshals. 

 Played a course and complained to the marshal about a group holding everyone up and was told that the group was a bunch of older gentleman and they always played slowly.  Needless to say the marshal did nothing. 

Too many times I see marshals on carts doing nothing but filling water.  They go by groups oblivious that a hole is open.  The culture needs to change and that begins with marshals who do their job.

Cliff-

The fastest golf courses I have been on don't have marshalls. But they are also private and members were "warned" by letter if they played over 4 hours and 15 min. It was something like 3 warnings and you couldn't play golf for a month. (I don't think it ever came to that).

However where does the problem start on most public golf courses? With the regulars on the weekend mornings with the same tee time every Saturday/Sunday. Why not fine the guys with permanent tee times every week.

Or.............if you are a public course with no culture, why not just space the times out to 10 min, cut all expenses related to keeping pace (marshalls, clocks, whatever), and just accept that there will be slow play but at least you arn't paying to fight a loosing battle. If a player has a problem with a group, he can call the pro in the shop and have him come out to talk to them. 
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2009, 04:00:33 PM »
Has anyone figured out yet that maybe there are band-aids for slow play, but really no cure.

The only places where slow play does not occur is within private golf clubs in which fast play is engrained in its culture.

Hogwash.

The fastest golf in Chicago on a course that isn't empty even on Saturday and Sunday is at a muni -- the Village Links of Glen Ellyn. 

Why is that?
H.P.S.

John Moore II

Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2009, 04:56:29 PM »
This is my idea.

Any group behind the pace of play regulations is simply removed from the course.
No warnings, no arguements, no excuses.
Their money is refunded on a "pro-rated, by hole" amount.

Good, fast, courteous players will love your course and be loyal customers.
Lousy, slow, selfish players will not play at your course.

-Ted

That would never work. Good luck trying to remove a golfer who just paid $100, is playing bad, and has lost 10 golf balls already.

It wouldn't be smart for the golf course either. The key is speeding the slow group up, not allowing fast players to play as fast as possible.

OK, I'll lets say it like this.
If those were the rules, I'd want to play there.
I play fast enough, not speed golf, but fast enough.
I'm courteous.
And I detest slow play.

All that stuff about speeding up the slow group doesn't work as far as I can tell.
Pace of play is AWFUL on most public golf courses in the tri state area.
Show up at Lido on Long Island at around 11a on Saturday in the middle of July.
6+ hours to get around GUARANTEED.
No course is willing to take a hard line on the issue and tell slow players that they simply aren't welcome. I imagine that the courses are afraid of losing money. I'd bet that the first one that takes my advice is PACKED and with good, fast, courteous players.

-Ted

But what is the pace of play regulation? Thats the key. Pace of play is not determined by some stop watch. Just look at it like this, if your pace regulation is 4:15, and the first group of the morning finishes the round in 4:15, you had better be prepared to throw just about every other group of the day off the course as they will finish in over 4:15.

With anything less than 10 minute teetime intervals, you lose time from group to group (I've never seen teetimes with larger space than 10 mins to say that 11 or 12 would really help the cause). But at Mid South we worked on 9 minute intervals. We lost at least one minute per group through the day. So, if every group finished just 1 minute slower than the one ahead, by the time you get 3 or 4 hours deep in the day, you're looking at 30+ minutes of lost time.

If you manage to book the sheet from something like 7am until 3pm solid (not far off target when busy courses are in season), assuming only 6 tee times per hour (most will have more) and losing 1 minute per group, you've lost in the range of 48 minutes through the day. And thats optimistic. So, at 48 minutes, if you hold the first group of the day to 4:20 (our pace at Mid South) and they hit it on the head, you're looking at 5:10 or more by the end of the day. And all that is assuming all groups stay perfectly on pace, which common sense says won't happen.

Its not that the staff at courses don't care about pace of play, we really do. Trust me, the guys behind the counter hate slow play, if only because of the crap we have to hear from people coming off the course when its happening. Its just that on busy days, if we are intent to keep 7/8 minute tee time gaps, there is simply NOTHING that the staff can do to keep a decent pace late in the day.

Rangers can only work for the first group of the day, to make sure they are hitting target times, and keep groups from falling off the group ahead of them. If everyone is keeping up with the group ahead of them, the ranger can't do a thing to speed up play.

Has anyone figured out yet that maybe there are band-aids for slow play, but really no cure.

The only places where slow play does not occur is within private golf clubs in which fast play is engrained in its culture.

Part of the reason that you see good pace at private clubs is that members will sometimes police themselves and give each other crap for playing slow. Also, private clubs typically don't book teetimes on 7 minute intervals for 5 or 6 hours. If they did that like the muni's in town, the problem would be the same.


Good little individual case about 'slow' play. I went with 3 members of my green staff and played Pinehurst #1. We teed off at about 2:30. By the 4th hole, we caught another group. They never let us play through the rest of the day. We literally waited on every shot other than putts for the rest of the round. BUT once I got back to my car (and this was after we finished, I went in the shop to thank the pro, and walked to my car) I looked at my phone and saw that it was 5:45. So, we had played 18 holes in roughly 3 hours (yes we were riding. If people like Garland and the other walk-nazis worked as hard as my green staffers, they'd ride a cart too) and felt like it had taken us an eternity to finish. Pace of Play is all relative.

Josh_Lesnik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2009, 05:27:22 PM »
Pat,

I didnt have any one of our facilities in mind specifically.  I left it general because we manage a diverse group of courses.  I figured I might gain some good insight on many different levels - which I think has been the case.  So many of the things that this group has posted is stuff that I'll use, I just need to organize the info.

I've worked with Bill Yates before, and his plan works.  The challenge is to keep that going day after day, year after year - which is our business.  So I am always looking for fresh ideas and renewed focus.  Bill will tell you, speed of play has to be a priority with everyone at the facility - not just pro's and ranger's -  in order to be successful, and there is some truth to that for sure.

I can say from experience being a good ranger is very hard work and puts one in many difficult situations (being a bad ranger is very easy).  Sometimes it seems backwards to me.  The highest paid golf guys are at their desk or behind the counter in the shop and the lower paid hourly guys (who, in some cases really just want the job as a retirement gig where they can play golf) are out on the course dealing with one of golf's biggest challenges.

I'll have to get over and play the Village Links - I've heard they have great pace.  My guess is there is a knowledgable group of regulars who apreciate a timely round.  As well as rangers who have been around and maybe even know the regulars and are not afraid to tell them to pick it up if they have to.  Maybe an easy course to walk (or ride).  Perhaps the regulars are even better then avg golfers and know the course extremely well.  A lot of things have to go right for a course to have great pace all the time.

All good.

Josh

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2009, 07:12:25 PM »
Did you know that Josh is in charge of Bandon Dunes for Kemper Sports?

Where do you live now Josh?

I think Bandon has modified the course to speed up play. The other often repeated ideas are having players play the right set of tees.

I think another way to speed up play is to lower the green fees. I think the more expensive the green fees, the slower the pace of play. I don't have any research on this but here is my observation.

 People who pay $150+ for green fees are often allowed to play at any pace they want. The course course operators don't want to offend the players paying a premium. And often at expensive courses, the course is wide open so the rich players can play slow. The slow play problem arises when they come to Bandon, they have a hard time to adjusting to a fast pace of play.

Or ask players if they want to play slow, then they can play at a certain time of the day.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2009, 09:29:03 PM »
1) Match play
2) Aim high... a round of golf should be played in 3h30... The comment I hate the most in golf is... We played in 4h20 today, it's good

Anthony Gray

Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2009, 09:30:56 PM »
Has anyone figured out yet that maybe there are band-aids for slow play, but really no cure.

The only places where slow play does not occur is within private golf clubs in which fast play is engrained in its culture.

   Pat,

   Your best post to date.

  Anthony


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2009, 10:02:21 PM »
Josh, My experience tells me it boils down to psychology, by informing the guest of the expectation of timely play and the consequences if they don't. And,,,, it's a big and... Not having policies that are counter productive to your goal of speeding up play. That to me means non-verbal communication with the Marshal. It's never fruitful and is counter productive.

The best case I've seen for this used a flag system that the Marshal's cart flew. Green=good pace, yellow=your group is under caution and must pick up the pace, and, Black=Pick up your ball and get back into proper position on the golf course.

Since golf is not an exact science, it is possible for a golfer, or group, to fall behind on a hole or two. However, the considerate golfer makes the attempt to catch up. The inconsiderate golfer should be drawn and quartered at dusk in full view of everyone's day they have ruined.  ;) After paying everyone's bar tab, of course.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2009, 10:08:32 PM »
I've seen slow play at private clubs at certain times of the day.

To get rid of slow play you should:

1) Get rid of carts - the average golfer cannot effectively play cart ball and it slows down the rounds
2) Marshalls with balls - as already discussed - if you are slow you pick up your ball and catch up to the group ahead or you are just tossed
3) Clocks in you face at each tee
4) Expectation of 4 hour max round
5) Sufficient space between tee times
6) Yardage stakes at 50, 100, 150, 200, 250 - so people are not running around looking for sprinkler heads
7) Let golfers know that if they are busted for slow play on your course, they will not be able to come back. Even though you PO some people, the frustration experienced by others will result in more rounds lost.
8) Put up a sign by the first tee with your slow play rules clearly called out - and don't be afraid to write things such as: Your pre-shot routine should not take more than 10 seconds, play ready golf, etc. etc. as discussed above.

Most courses "talk" about reducing slow play but do not really do anything about it. Set clear expectations and you will probably find that golfers will live up to them.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2009, 10:31:07 PM »
The company I work for (KemperSports) is always looking for ways to improve our golf course operations.  I'd love to hear programs you've seen (or thought of, but haven't seen in place) on improving speed of play at golf courses.  Thanks in advance for any ideas you share.
 


John,

It's the clock.

Time out, time in, measure the differential and the discrepancy against the group ahead of them.

If a group finishes in over four hours and more than 10, 9, or 8 minutes behind the group ahead of them, the entire group gets sanctioned for future play.

This way, there is no "on course" confrontation.
The stop watch is the enforcer.

No excuses.

In addition, Mulligans on the 1st and 10th tees count as a "slow play" round, and everyone is sanctioned.

It works.


P.S. This works far better at private clubs.

Abe Summers

Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2009, 10:34:28 PM »
Dear Josh,

Welcome to the site.  My father sends his best regards.  He suggested I call you up, I have been putting it off.  We should discuss management styles on either side of the pond one day.  

Regarding speed of play:

1. We have two nines that both come into the clubhouse, so often groups take a break to go to the bathroom or eat lunch between nines; we aggressively monitor as they come up the 9th and hold them if a group needs to pass or another needs to go back out after stopping.  Not as much urging speed as pulling slow groups out temporarily and having a fixed place to make switches.

2.  As much as tee times are "set" we take the approach that groups cannot tee off until the group in front is on the 1st green, putting.  This gets the appropriate spacing we need before the first mulligan.  Admittedly, this has taken some tweaking but has been very helpful.

3.  I have often wondered about the usage of clocks.  We don't have them on our course.  If we did, I would have them set to show your tee off time when you pass.  I don't know the technical term for this.  If anyone is using this system, is it working?

4.  Thanks to Adam Clayman for a nifty idea with the flags being flown on the marshal's cart.  After seeing it I'm going to implement a variation of that soon at our club.

5. Identify vantage points on the course where you can watch progress.  On our 8th tee you can see everything going on between 6 and 8 and our marshals often monitor groups from there.

I wouldn't discount the importance of training your marshals to communicate effectively.  
Hope that helps.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2009, 11:13:24 PM »
1. Eliminate the rule requiring flags to be removed or tended before putting. There is no general agreement that leaving the flag stick in improves your chance of making the putt anyway.

2. Mark and pick up balls on the green only if required to clean or if requested by the putter.

3. My favorite......enlage the cup. Forget the senior tees. I need a senior cup, say about the size of a gallon peach can. That would save me about 10 srokes and 15 minutes per round. More for the turkeys I play with.

Jim Lewis
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2009, 09:33:55 AM »
forbid the course guide/strokesaver!!!!

(18x 2 long shots averagex 1,5 min of studying time 3 players is 1,5 hrs)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2009, 10:10:26 AM »
At the course I've seen the policy work, it worked so well they didn't own a black flag. It all starts in the shop making sure evryone is aware of the policy. 97% will honor it. The other 3% A-hole factor (usually lawyers) ;) should be placed on a black list and publically humiliated.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2009, 10:33:58 AM »
Speed up pace of play?

Slow green speeds...

Cut rough...
Project 2025....All bow down to our new authoritarian government.

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best ideas for improving Speed of Play
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2009, 10:38:36 AM »
1.  Get yardage plates on the tee boxes for all par 3's.  I've seen courses that don't have an obvious yardage plate and guys spend 5 minutes trying to figure out what club to hit.  This is especially a problem with courses that have 4 or 5 tee boxes per hole.  There needs to be a plate on every hole.

2.  Mark the course well with yardage plates and posts.

3.  Go with a colored coded flag system to indicate where the flag is, rather than using pin sheets or a number system written on the green shown on the scorecard.  The colored flag system is faster.  The less information a golfer has to factor means the quicker they will play.

4.  Hire beverage girls who know what they are doing.  Train them to be friendly but efficient.  Many times I've seen the pace of a golf course completely ruined becasue one group hangs around the beverage girl for 5 to 10 minutes.

5.  Better yet, get rid of the beverage girl, install coolers on your carts and let customers load up with snacks and drinks before the round begins.

6.  Aggressively monitor the turn and make sure groups get to the 10th tee quickly.  Have a ranger assigned to the turn to specifically work this job.

7.  Get a clock on the range, especially if the range is removed from the first tee or clubhouse.  Make sure groups report to the first tee on time.

8.  As mentioned, space out tee times at least 9 minutes, maybe even 10.  I know this means fewer groups on the course and therefore less revenue, but it probably is the # 1 way to sped up play.

9.  Hire rangers and train them well.  Give them the athority to have slow groups pick up their ball and move to the group in front of them.  This action should be a last resort, but it should be an option.  Make sure the rangers have the complete backing of management.

10.  Make it very clear to groups on the first tee your club's policies regarding pace of play and your expectations.  Explain to every group what will happen to them if they are slow.  Explain to every group their job is to stay with the group in front of them.  Too many groups think their job is to not slow down the group behind them.  Wrong.

11.  Finally, thank groups that have completed their round personally.  A ranger or starter should greet them at the end of their round, let them know their time.  Maybe you could even hand out coupons for a free drink or appetizer from the grill.  That would be a good way to get traffic in your grill.