El Boqueron Update

[mike_beene]

Sounds like you all have about doubled the population of the town.This is a great location with the 183 toll road an easy shot from Austin and just 3 hours from Dallas.Cant wait to see the property.Are the plans to stay open in the summer?

[Mark Hissey]

Incredibly exciting.  Congratulations guys and the best of luck.

[Mike_DeVries]

A question for Mike DeVries

Mike, as the El Boqueron plan has no scale, I was wondering how you have gone about trying to determine or estimate the length of holes Mackenzie had planned? As the green complexes appear large, as a result the holes look on the short side as a result. Have you a length target in mind for your course and how does this differ from what Mac intended? Thanks.

Neil,

Sorry for the delay -- traveling . . .  the nine holes that Dentone built was not exactly based on MacKenzie's plan but the perimeter holes are very close and occupied the same property that MacKenzie was going to use, so I was able to scale off an aerial of the original course, couple it to the 9-hole scorecard, and scale the MacKenzie plan from that.  The MacK plan ended up being about 6100 yards in length for the original design. 

The MacK plan was overlaid on the Austin property at scale and, with the adjustments to the routing to accommodate the dry creek bed and pond, will be about 6700 yards, par 70.  This number could fluctuate a little bit, especially if you wanted to stretch it out all over with optional teeing areas and could be done, but the regular set will be moderate in length -- 6500-6700 for normal play.

One of the problem areas in terms of tightness and / or more play is with holes 3, 4, 15, and 16 on the drawing -- they are tight and all relatively short par 4's (#4 being a long par 3) which would encourage some "go for it" shots that could be a little more hazardous.  Hole #3 is affected by the dry creek bed in Austin and so the green complex was shifted and made the holes longer, adding some yardage.  A couple other greens were shifted slightly (about 50-100') but greens are in place as in the MacK plan and other tees add length more than anything.

Cheers,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike - I had the same question Neil and Jay have, but was afraid to ask because I thought it was just me, missing something.  Also, on another thread TE references the talks Behr and MacKenzie were having around this time about designing with little or no rough, and the use of melded fairways - what do you envision re fairway widths here?
Thanks
Peter

Peter,

The fairways are wide, just like the greens are huge.  Many of them will meld together in places, due to the nature of the holes, angles, strategy, wind direction and strength, etc.  There are also good clusters of trees that may be effective and I hope that they fall in the right spots so as not to diminish from the wide open Old Course effect that this design really embodies.  How wide -- up to 100-150+ yards for combo fairways.  The idea is to provide shaved turf that gives players the chance to get at the correct angle to attack the greens with a certain shot and use the humps and bumps with the firm turf to work the ball into places.

Mike

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks for this Mike, I figured you may have done it by property lines as there appear to be lines on Mac's plan, but old aerials of the Dentone course seem like they have done the trick. I am a little surprised that Mackenzie did not put the hole lengths on the plan, given that pretty much every Mac plan I've seen has a card on it - perhaps this is the exception that proves the rule!

The plan does look rather tight in the area you mention and a little spreading would certainly not go amiss from a safety and a "breathing" perspective. But I guess this is limited somewhat by having all double greens.

Appreciate you taking the time to respond to these questions.

cheers Neil

[Mike_DeVries]

I second Neil's question.  From the plan, I couldn't tell the number of par 5s vs. par 4s.  Any additional details would be welcome.

Nothing etched in stone: AUSTIN SCORECARD

Hole       Par       Yards              Hole    Par     Yards

#1           4          415                #10      4       440
#2           4          455                #11      5       500
#3           3          230                #12      4       367
#4           3          175                #13      3       225
#5           4          315                #14      4       377
#6           3          190                #15      3       200
#7           4          470                #16      4       377
#8           5          515                #17      4       453
#9           5          510                #18      4       473

Out        35        3275                In        35      3412


         Par 70                        6687 Yards

When you look at the MacK plan, the clubhouse is the rectangle next to the 9th and 18th green.  We are moving the clubhouse to what is the 1st and 17th green location, as the property allows for a very big practice facility on an E-W basis to the lower right off of that green and clubhouse location.  This makes for a new numbering of the course, with #1 actually MacK's #2 and going around the front nine and finishing the front at MacK's 1st green, then playing #18 as the 10th, and following the rest of the back nine around from MacK #10 through #17, which is an awesome long 4/short 5 finish.  Hope that is clear.

Mike

[Jim Nugent]

Mike DeVries, you pretty much inherited the routing.  But do you have more latitude with the greens and greens complexes?  The bunkers? 

[Mike_DeVries]

Thanks for this Mike, I figured you may have done it by property lines as there appear to be lines on Mac's plan, but old aerials of the Dentone course seem like they have done the trick. I am a little surprised that Mackenzie did not put the hole lengths on the plan, given that pretty much every Mac plan I've seen has a card on it - perhaps this is the exception that proves the rule!

The plan does look rather tight in the area you mention and a little spreading would certainly not go amiss from a safety and a "breathing" perspective. But I guess this is limited somewhat by having all double greens.

Appreciate you taking the time to respond to these questions.

cheers Neil

Neil,

It is unusual to not have a scorecard but who knows?  I think it may have been the fact that it was an estate course and even though he had designated teeing grounds for each hole, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that more would evolve or they would just find the most adjacent spot to tee it up -- much like how the game started and the rules said to do so 1 club length from the hole.  

The enormity of the greens certainly gives us a lot of variety and flexibility also.  From the discussion on the other thread about estate courses, maybe MacKenzie suspected that conditioning was not going to be very good and therefore made these large greens so there would be enough space with a good surface?  

Another thing to note -- look at the lighter lines that are intermingled throughout the golf course, with a circle near each green complex.  I believe that is a rudimentary piping system, gravity fed from the high point near the clubhouse, to irrigate greens (probably with a hose).  It is the ultimate in simplicity!

Glad to see the interest and hear everyone's questions on the project!

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike DeVries, you pretty much inherited the routing.  But do you have more latitude with the greens and greens complexes?  The bunkers? 

Jim,

This is not a set of construction drawings but an illustrative drawing that provides quite a bit of detail in the sketch.  I want to do justice to MacKenzie's work and do not feel the need to add more bunkers -- certainly, the construction of the bunkers and greens will offer interpretation of the drawing and my experience with MacKenzie's work.  To do it correctly will require a great deal of time and attention to the details in the field to give it the touch of MacKenzie.  This golf course will feel and play old school.

Hope that answers your question.

Mike

[TEPaul]

“I would like to hear your thoughts on any matter pretaining to Mackenzie and estate courses.”


David Ebel:

Below is about all I had to say about estate courses (I put it on the other thread). It’s not much but just a thought essentially comparing how two heavy-weight architects of the time seem to have  viewed them and the concept of them----eg apparently quite differently.


“I guess it's a small point to make, but it seems Macdonald and MacKenzie came from almost polar opposite places on the idea of private estate golf courses.

From his book it's obvious Macdonald actively tried to deter a couple of very wealthy individuals (Otto Kahn and Payne Whitney) from New York and Long Island from getting him to design 18 hole private courses for them. Instead he tended to suggest a few GB prototype greens on 6-8 acreas that could be played at from various lengths and directions.

It seems like Maconald's prime concern about 18 hole private estate courses is that they just wouldn't be maintained properly which was clearly something of a heartbreak for him when he first went back and saw the deplorable condition of his ultra amazing Lido.

Mackenzie, on the other hand seemed to use the private estate course as a chance for some real architectural experimentation---ie Sitwell Park (one of the wildest greens ever built) and this private course in Argentina----El Boqueron.”



I grew up in the New York metropolitan area, David, and from the teens and 1920s there were probably more of those kinds of courses around there or at least the interest in them than anywhere else. Of course I’m sure you probably realize that in some ways golf in America somewhat began on private estate courses in the early years of the 1890s but those private courses were really rudimentary compared to the El Boqueron plan you possess and some of them later from the likes of Macdonald, Mackenzie and Flynn.

By the way, David, you should IM or email me. We have someone who has long been extremely interested in some form of private estate course or private community course application.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Like Mike Beene...as I am only just over two hours east of Dallas...this is exciting...this thread is truly what GCA is all about...fascinating stuff a history lesson for one and then getting some insight into the development and building of a course from the ground up.
We should truly document thsi at each stage as a model for what gca is all about!
With the permission of messrs Devries and Edel perhaps we can putb together some sort of book on the project..that would dare I say it so cool.

I am going to the area in may to spend some time at Boot Ranch and surrounding area, and would love to "pop in" if that would be possible.
Great stuff...

[Bill_McBride]

Mike DeVries, you pretty much inherited the routing.  But do you have more latitude with the greens and greens complexes?  The bunkers? 

Jim,

This is not a set of construction drawings but an illustrative drawing that provides quite a bit of detail in the sketch.  I want to do justice to MacKenzie's work and do not feel the need to add more bunkers -- certainly, the construction of the bunkers and greens will offer interpretation of the drawing and my experience with MacKenzie's work.  To do it correctly will require a great deal of time and attention to the details in the field to give it the touch of MacKenzie.  This golf course will feel and play old school.

Hope that answers your question.

Mike

The Texas hill country is a great place for fast and firm conditions! 

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - thanks very much for the expansive answers to my (and other posters') questions. Even I, with all the visual acuity of a slab of concrete, can start to see it/imagine it.  The *space* of it.... 

Peter

[Mike_DeVries]

With the permission of messrs Devries and Edel perhaps we can putb together some sort of book on the project..that would dare I say it so cool.

I am going to the area in may to spend some time at Boot Ranch and surrounding area, and would love to "pop in" if that would be possible.
Great stuff...

Michael,
I will leave it to David to determine how to document the project.  A book would be cool and I would help in whatever way I can, but it is not my main thing -- building kick-a$$ greens is!

Will be great to see you at the site -- you could offer some more thoughts on seeing an in-process project that way.  Just be ready to grab a shovel and do a little digging!   

Peter P.,
Glad that it is helping you to "see the light" 

Cheers,
Mike

[Chip Gaskins]

Wow, oh my....have I been under a rock.  My wife's family lives less than 10 miles from where this is being built.  All of a sudden visiting the in-laws just got better!

I have to admit though....what if the MacKenzie's routing doesn't fit nicely with what is on the ground there?  The pictures Joe posted look promising, but if you are truly trying to stay honest with the Doctor's original routing then what happens when the reality of the site get in the way?

I played Austin Golf Club a few months ago and minimalistic totally works on northwest Austin sites like this.

Either way, I am really excited to got to Texas now!

Chip

[James Bennett]

Mike, David

I hope this isn't a silly question but....

is it possible to play this course in reverse?  Given the double greens, I just wonder. 

James B

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, David

I hope this isn't a silly question but....

is it possible to play this course in reverse?  Given the double greens, I just wonder. 

James B

From looking at the map, I get the feeling the backs of the greens are built up in some cases a lot more than the Old Course.  The shots all come from one side rather than both sides as you get in St Andrews.  The targets are side by side (180* plane) rather than 360* with shots from both directions.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mike and David..
Will the bunkering resemble the good mans work in the snad belt of Melbourne, ie..sharp edges at green side with very little fringe?

Those are probably the best set of bunkers I have ever seen all be it in pictures and on the telly!
thanks..
mwp

[Mike_DeVries]

Chip,
The ground is very similar in movement and elevation change to the original land in Argentina, the creekbed and pond in Austin falling at the low point of the land in Argentina, so the routing stays intact very, very close to MacKenzie's original -- the only green that gets moved substantially is the 3rd/15th (2nd/16th in the renumbered plan in Austin) because it "lands" in the creekbed -- and that actually added another element to the course and I think will marriage it to the land and improve the overall design and flexibility of the course.

James,
Think of the design as a really big reversible 9 holes -- it is 18 but you could compress it really tightly for a "private course" if you wanted.  We pushed out some tees at the perimeter to allow a bit more area to accommodate more play and more options but with little play, you could literally tee it up right next to a green for the next hole -- very cool!  What makes the double greens work is that they aren't all side-by-side -- some are end-to-end, others come together at 90deg, etc.  It is great variety.  The cross country golf will be spectacular!

Michael,
There will be tight turf around the greens in lots of places but the very clean, laser-edged effect of the Sand Belt is distinctive of their soils and ability to create and maintain those edges long term -- it is a unique environment that allows for that style to exist and it is difficult to obtain in areas where the soils are not so beneficial.  The bunkers at El Boqueron may have some shaved tight into them and other sides will be rugged and more unkempt, all depending on the play and shots coming at the bunker and green in question.

[David Edel]

MWP,

To answer your question to a book or something, we do intend to some sort of video journal with a book version.   It is our belief that the course and its development has a unique story.  I think all clubs should document the development from begining to end, so a 100 + we are not having to dig for the truth.  I can't speak for other clubs or developments, but I do not want this to happen with El Boqueron, it happened once, not again.
What excites me is the amount of information that has come forward since the thread has begun.  Maybe many of you knew about these facts, but many are new to me.  I am grateful for this forum, the potential that is here within.  Each and every person has a fact or article, or something unique to contribute.  For one person to research all this is a lifetime of work.  Collectively the knowledge is huge. 
I would hope that all those who love and respect Mackenzies will provide there point of view so we can make this a special project. 

Thanks again,

David

[Alfonso Erhardt]

This won't add much to the depth of the discussion.

Boquerón in Spanish means "anchovy" (Engraulis encrasicolus). David, do you know why the original place had this name?

Regards,

[David Edel]

Alfonso,

Jaime Zuberbuhler led me to believe it was named after an important battle between Paraguay and Argentina backin the day.  The battle was named EL Boqueron.  I have been working so hard on other details, that trying to find out more about the name or why should something that I pay more attention to.  I did ask Jaime and that was his response. 

Anchovies anyone?

David

"Where do you play?"  "I am a member at Achovie Golf Club!"  I think we will stick with El Boqueron.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

David,

Instead of chocolate chip cookies in the men's locker room, you should serve anchovies.

[Mike_DeVries]

Alfonso,

Jaime Zuberbuhler led me to believe it was named after an important battle between Paraguay and Argentina backin the day.  The battle was named EL Boqueron.  I have been working so hard on other details, that trying to find out more about the name or why should something that I pay more attention to.  I did ask Jaime and that was his response. 

Anchovies anyone?

David

"Where do you play?"  "I am a member at Achovie Golf Club!"  I think we will stick with El Boqueron.

How about a little fish for the logo?   

[Rich Goodale]

My quick search found "The Big Hole" as the translation of el Boqueron.  One could take that either way, in a golfing sense, but anything is better than "Anchovy" IMO.............