El Boqueron Update

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rich

As John F Kennedy so famously and movingly said, "I am a jelly doughnut!"

Mark

[David Edel]

I thing the big hole sounds more like a battle ground scenario than anchovy.  I will email Jaime to see if he knows why the name El Boqueron was used for this particular estancia. 

A side note, Mike DeVries has just finished some green profile sketches.  Some will be posted on Tom Dunne's new web based golf magazine www.out-and-back.net.  As you all know T&L went down, so Tom has made the difficult decision to go all in on this new platform.  Tom is a great writer and will bring a great cast of contributing writers to give insightful content as he did during his tenure at T&L.  I hope all will help support his efforts.

All the best,

David

[RJ_Daley]

If you go with the anchovy theme, you can always build a brick-wood fired oven and make great original style pizza with anchovy topping, or make the Ceasar Salad w/anchovy the club specialty...

Hey Joe Mike and crew, I'm no trained chef, but I can work out a pretty good ragu sauce if you kill, skin and butcher the rattlers... Taosted scorps on that Ceasar Salad might also be a interesting local culinary twist... 

[Norbert P]

  I've just spent the last hour reading this magnum opus of threads.  I missed it when it came out and feel it deserves a bump for others who may not have seen it.  The Out and Back website is terrific, BTW.  Good luck, Tom.

  I may be coming out to TEXAS (Everything's BIG in TEXAS) this June. Consider yourself warned for a curious intruder.

[Chip Gaskins]

Mike-  Those are great sketches....please keep us up to date on progress.

[Carl Nichols]

This is great stuff.  Joe's pictures from the site look remarkably like a lot of the land down here in Argentina.  (The fact that this course is being built in the U.S., rather than Argentina -- with its abundance of land that would be very similar to the original site -- certainly says something about the respective countries.)  Two questions:
1.  David E:  Where exactly in Mar del Plata is the site of the original estate?  I get down there once in a while and wouldn't mind checking it out.
2.  Has anyone played the GC of Uruguay recently?  Is it "excellent," as Tom Dunne's article suggests.

[Tony Ristola]

This is great stuff.  Joe's pictures from the site look remarkably like a lot of the land down here in Argentina.  (The fact that this course is being built in the U.S., rather than Argentina -- with its abundance of land that would be very similar to the original site -- certainly says something about the respective countries.)  Two questions:
1.  David E:  Where exactly in Mar del Plata is the site of the original estate?  I get down there once in a while and wouldn't mind checking it out.
2.  Has anyone played the GC of Uruguay recently?  Is it "excellent," as Tom Dunne's article suggests.

Bump.

.

[Bill_McBride]

Tony, I was hoping you bumped this because there is news about the project getting underway.

 

I hope this is the case!

[Joe Hancock]

Tony, I was hoping you bumped this because there is news about the project getting underway.

 

I hope this is the case!

Nothing going as of now, although I know that David Edel is still living on the site in Texas, working towards the goal of re-igniting the project during this difficult economic time. I hope he'll chime in if anything substantial is moving forward.

Joe

[Bill_McBride]

Tony, I was hoping you bumped this because there is news about the project getting underway.

 

I hope this is the case!

Nothing going as of now, although I know that David Edel is still living on the site in Texas, working towards the goal of re-igniting the project during this difficult economic time. I hope he'll chime in if anything substantial is moving forward.

Joe

What I figured.  My daughter Jane has moved from Austin back to her beloved New Orleans (great job with the USDA as a microbiologist!  ), so my Austin travel will be reduced. 

Hopefully the project will be underway next time I get over there.  The combination of Mike DeVries playing the role of Dr Mackenzie, Joe Hancock on D-6 and that Hill Country site will be irresistible!

[David Edel]

Hello,

Just wanted to reply to give an update to how things are going.  I appreciate all that are interested and I am hopeful that we can get back on track in the near future.  I have been living on the property site in Liberty Hill, Texas since late March.  All the issues with the economy have put things on hold, and recent health issues with one of our partners has been a huge concern.

As you know our banking institutions have zero interest in lending to a golf project right now, regardless of the quality or the idea.  Since many of the failing golf clubs have been tied to housing and lot sales or clubs that have built massive clubhouses that can not support themselves, they see golf as a massive black hole.

Another issue has a lot to do with education.  Members of this site are fully aware of the significance of an authentic Mackenzie plan that was never developed, but most people have little knowledge of the Good Doctor, only recognizing the fame of some of his designs.  It takes time to get people to understand who Mackenzie was and the potential value of this project. 

Right now I have the opportunity to either dilute the partnership or buy them out for the value of the land.  So at this point I am working hard to find real solutions to make this happen.  The who and the how have yet to be determined, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.  I want this project to have soul and those involved to be determined to create a lasting legacy of a truly great golf club.

This is not going to be a housing development, but a club who's purpose is a great golfing experience.  Old school, cabins for members, dormie lodge, walking, no paved roads, no cart paths, or corny pictures of great golfers that never played here.

I have recently acquired the entire golf estate of Roberto DeVicenzo, were we will gracefully display his golfing and personal achievements.  Roberto won  231 times, second 127, and thrid 89 times so you can imagine the collection is sizeable, and I will take great pride in being the stuard of his golfing legacy.  Roberto has been a friend, mentor, and teacher of mine since 1992, and since the plans and Anchorena family are from the Argentine it is a fitting connection.  He also won 9 times in Texas with the Colonial, Houston Champions, Dallas Open, and 5 Liberty Legands titles here in Austin.

I also have great interest to create a Mackenzie room were all that is known about his works and correspondance can be view for the purpose of education.  Much of what is known about this man is spread around the world and I feel it would be nice to have a place so those interested could view the sum of his known works.  I would greatly appreciate any help with this idea, and obviously we are only interested in copies.  Maybe this is a lofty goal, but why not try.

With all this being said, I would greatly appreciate any advice from members to help make this project a reality.  In many ways I am grateful that this downturn happened when it did.  Yes, I would love to see this built, but if it happened after the project was built may have hurt it worse than now.   There is some irony in that some of the same issues that I am facing were what he faced in the 1930's.  The principles and values of building great golf courses meant to be sustainable are as important now as they were when he was alive.  Mike DeVries, Don Mahaffey, and Joe Hancock have been a great support and believers in El Boqueron and I value their contributions and friendship.

If anyone would like to get a hold of me my number is 541-335-1082 cell.

Thanks again for your interest and thoughful comments,

David

[Mike_DeVries]

Another issue has a lot to do with education.  Members of this site are fully aware of the significance of an authentic Mackenzie plan that was never developed, but most people have little knowledge of the Good Doctor, only recognizing the fame of some of his designs.  It takes time to get people to understand who Mackenzie was and the potential value of this project. 

What does everyone think about some of the things David asks, especially the section above?  Does the general (golfing) public even have an idea of who or what MacKenzie represents?  How do we educate a broader spectrum about the importance of what this course is?  Is it as significant as finding a Picasso, Monet, or Rembrandt in the attic?

Looking forward to hearing thoughts on these subjects!
Mike

[Mac Plumart]

No the golfing public doesn't know what a treasure this is.  When I talk to people who've been playing golf for the entire life, I am always surprise that they have no idea who an architect of a particular course is...even if it is their home course.  I was playing a course just last month and asked...so who designed this course?  Answer...I don't know some old dead guy.  No kidding!!

Is it as significant as finding a Picasso?   I think it is.  But that is just me. 

This may not be the time or place to say this...but I will anyway.  I think the tv broadcasts need to do a better job of educating their viewers about golf, its history, and its courses/architects.  Today, you get a 5 second overview of the course and its history.  But I've been watching the repeats of the Wonderful World of Golf...they do a whole skit on the course, the architect, etc.  Cool stuff.

Anyway...sorry for the tangent...but I think they tie in nicely.

[Bill_McBride]

Golf clubs with courses designed by Mackenzie always seem to happy to publicize their heritage.  Does that mean much to the general public?  Maybe so because of all the Mackenzie chat on the Masters broadcasts.

Publicity for El Boqueron can certainly lean on the Mackenzie heritage, and that's easier to do than ever with Internet marketing.

I hope Mr. Edel is able to resolve the funding issues and you guys get going.  I do love Hill Country terrain (play at Barton Creek every year and just played Austin Golf Club), should be a great setting for El Boq.

[Chip Gaskins]

I drove around the outskirts of the site about a month ago (with Tom Dunne guiding me via phone) and it looks like it could be a really neat site.

My biggest question is how well the actual routing translates from the orginal site to the new one.

Would a newly discovered Frank Lloyd Wright plan that was never built be just as good no matter where it is built?  I have no idea??

The story sure is cool, but it comes down to what the new routing looks like on the ground in Texas and how that marries back to the orginal course/idea/routing

My two cents...

[Joe Hancock]

Right now I have the opportunity to either dilute the partnership or buy them out for the value of the land.  So at this point I am working hard to find real solutions to make this happen.  The who and the how have yet to be determined, so any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

C'mon guys...this is what we're all about...we never let a chance to advise pass on by, do we? 

Joe

[Mac Plumart]

This thread started before I was a member...but for what it is worth...I will read it in its entirety and share my comments, thoughts, suggestions, etc with you all.  An idea with this potential certainly merits that.

I'm sure you are waiting on the edge of your seat to hear my thoughts!!   

[Joe Hancock]

Mac,

You have no idea about how much I can learn from almost anyone else....

I also hope Mike will respond soon to Chip's inquiry about the routing...all I can say is apart from a couple greens getting pushed out a bit, the routing lays on the Liberty Hill site remarkably similar to what it was designed to be in Argentina.

Joe

[Joe Hancock]

I was doing a bit of searching and stumbled upon this old thread.....


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,3876.0/

There's some relevant ideas in the thread.

Joe

[Daryn_Soldan]

Chip raised the question / made the comparison about a Frank Lloyd Wright plan being build somewhere other than originally intended. Got me thinking about some FLW projects in Buffalo, NY that I'd read about while doing research in grad school. Two projects have been built there recently from Wright plans and another is supposedly close to fruition. All built decades after their original design and at least one is far from its intended location. Here's a link but unfortunately not all of the source links work. Several were very informative regarding background and issues surrounding the projects. (last 3 projects on the page - mausoleum, boat house and filling station)

http://www.wrightnowinbuffalo.com/whattodo/wright_legacy.asp#mausoleum 

With some similarities to the El Boqueron project, study of these projects may be of value regarding the education, fundraising and marketing efforts that were undertaken to get them up and off the ground. I know that the architecture, historical, and tourism groups in Buffalo have done quite a bit to promote and revive the city's architectural heritage - particularly as it relates to the turn-of-the-century architects who designed buildings there (even managed to get an article in USA Today recently). Maybe there are opportunities to promote this project within the context of the rich history of Texas / Austin golf and the high regard of Mackenzie courses in other parts of the country/world. It could be viewed as a coveted, but currently missing, feather in the state's golfing cap. Granted, probably a lot more difficult to sell Mackenzie than Wright... but have to start somewhere.

-Daryn

[Neil_Crafter]

Pretty long bow to draw to compare finding a lost Picasso painting to a lost Mackenzie plan (even though I'd be happy to own either! )

The Picasso artwork is the final object, whereas the Mackenzie plan is an intermediary step in Mackenzie's vision for the final object, the built golf course, which in the case of El Boqueron, never actually happened.

Very few people outside of golf have ever heard of Mackenzie, and many inside golf as well, sadly. Frank Lloyd Wright is a household name in comparison to Mackenzie.

And I would love to see a Mac Room in the clubhouse that was an archival repository for copies of his plans, reports, letters, photographs etc etc. That would be wonderful. Good luck David, Mike and Joe and all others involved. Hang in there - our thoughts are with you.

Neil

[Mike_DeVries]

I drove around the outskirts of the site about a month ago (with Tom Dunne guiding me via phone) and it looks like it could be a really neat site.

My biggest question is how well the actual routing translates from the orginal site to the new one.

Would a newly discovered Frank Lloyd Wright plan that was never built be just as good no matter where it is built?  I have no idea??

The story sure is cool, but it comes down to what the new routing looks like on the ground in Texas and how that marries back to the orginal course/idea/routing

My two cents...

Chip,
After visiting the original site in Argentina in October, I am even more convinced of the similarity of the land in Austin to that of the original site.  Following are copies of earlier replies to a similar question.  Hope these help you with your question.
Mike

The ground here in Austin is very similar to the land where the golf course was to be in Argentina and the original routing is being faithfully kept intact, with the exception of the 3rd and 15th green, which would have been in the bottom of the big dry wash -- I pushed the green out so both holes will now play over that feature and it gives some options for the drive on the 16th to be a long or short par four.  Between holes 8 and 11 is where the dry wash turns into a pond right now, but the dry creekbed will be restored in the process -- this is certainly different than the narrow corridor with curros on the right side of 11, but what is special about it is the side of the pond on hole 11 is a dramatic limestone ledge 10-15 feet high and this will provide for a beautiful drive that entices the player to bite off more of the hole as he sees fit.  [Note: is the 3rd/15th is the 2nd/16th in the renumbered plan in Austin]

The other switch is the location of the clubhouse to the 1st and 17th greens -- this allows for a better siting of the clubhouse, with the range immediately to its side (right of the 17th as you look at the plan) and a beautiful view over the golf in front of you and to the hills beyond to the south of the property. 


I'm interested to know how much 'latitude' you are allowing yourselves to vary from Mac's plan? Naturally one would expect a little just to fit the holes to the different site. Look forward to your comments. Neil
The tweaking of a hole to accommodate the dry wash or a specimen oak will be neglible and not that different from the original drawing -- certainly, if the tree is in the way, it will be removed.  The original site was very "plain-Jane" with not a lot of character and the site in Texas does have quite a bit more going for it in that regard with the dry wash, good trees and cedars (not just curros), but not so much movement that it is radically different. 

One aspect that will be different is MacKenzie indicated only one teeing location but there is lots of space around the tees that is short grass and we will provide for multiple options for players, not just to have a regulation set of tees, but for variety.  The club will be about playing the game and its camaderie, so what's to say that the next hole's tee selection isn't upon the winner of the previous hole?  Or alternate who chooses the next tee?  We will have some options just through tight mown turf to have a tee very close to the green and maybe making the hole/course quite a bit longer for certain events.  This is not totally figured out, but the concept is to have multiple options and we could easily have a "strict original scorecard" but also lots of flexibility for different reasons.

[Mike_DeVries]

No the golfing public doesn't know what a treasure this is.  When I talk to people who've been playing golf for the entire life, I am always surprise that they have no idea who an architect of a particular course is...even if it is their home course.  I was playing a course just last month and asked...so who designed this course?  Answer...I don't know some old dead guy.  No kidding!!

Is it as significant as finding a Picasso?   I think it is.  But that is just me. 

This may not be the time or place to say this...but I will anyway.  I think the tv broadcasts need to do a better job of educating their viewers about golf, its history, and its courses/architects.  Today, you get a 5 second overview of the course and its history.  But I've been watching the repeats of the Wonderful World of Golf...they do a whole skit on the course, the architect, etc.  Cool stuff.

Anyway...sorry for the tangent...but I think they tie in nicely.

Mac,
Sounds like we need to teh Golf Channel down to Austin!!!!
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Chip raised the question / made the comparison about a Frank Lloyd Wright plan being build somewhere other than originally intended. Got me thinking about some FLW projects in Buffalo, NY that I'd read about while doing research in grad school. Two projects have been built there recently from Wright plans and another is supposedly close to fruition. All built decades after their original design and at least one is far from its intended location. Here's a link but unfortunately not all of the source links work. Several were very informative regarding background and issues surrounding the projects. (last 3 projects on the page - mausoleum, boat house and filling station)

http://www.wrightnowinbuffalo.com/whattodo/wright_legacy.asp#mausoleum 

With some similarities to the El Boqueron project, study of these projects may be of value regarding the education, fundraising and marketing efforts that were undertaken to get them up and off the ground. I know that the architecture, historical, and tourism groups in Buffalo have done quite a bit to promote and revive the city's architectural heritage - particularly as it relates to the turn-of-the-century architects who designed buildings there (even managed to get an article in USA Today recently). Maybe there are opportunities to promote this project within the context of the rich history of Texas / Austin golf and the high regard of Mackenzie courses in other parts of the country/world. It could be viewed as a coveted, but currently missing, feather in the state's golfing cap. Granted, probably a lot more difficult to sell Mackenzie than Wright... but have to start somewhere.

-Daryn

Daryn,
Thanks for the link and insight.  That is some great stuff on the FLW buildings and history in Buffalo (I am a huge FLW fan, going back my youth) and we will look into how they are promoting his work there.  One big difference is there is a high concentration of significant works by FLW there, like Oak Park and Chicago, that gives it momentum and we are starting from scratch.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, am I recalling correctly that the El Boqueron plan didn't have a ton of fairway bunkers but would use native vegetation instead?

What are you planning to do in Texas? 

The dry wash sounds very exciting and interestng and could add some George Thomas elements from Riviera and LACC as well as the Mackenzie design.  The dry wash with diagonal carries creates great strategic elements.  Both Pasatiempo and the Valley Club have barrancas and creeks in play.  This all sounds too exciting!