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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #200 on: March 13, 2009, 11:46:42 PM »
Jeff:

Mr. Nicklaus turned the tables on me at Sebonack ... he told me if there were any greens people judged as too severe, he would just blame those on me.

I wonder if anybody has told him Sebonack is now his most highly-rated course?  Maybe I should send him a note to congratulate him.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #201 on: March 14, 2009, 12:04:47 PM »
The other day on a long flight home I sat with two very nice older ladies who did not play golf, but both live in a golf community. They asked what I did and quickly offered that they "...live lust down the road from a Nicklaus community..." followed by, "So, do you play golf...are you a professional golfer?"

Now, that my friends, is a brand!


— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #202 on: March 14, 2009, 12:52:33 PM »
The other day on a long flight home I sat with two very nice older ladies who did not play golf, but both live in a golf community. They asked what I did and quickly offered that they "...live lust down the road from a Nicklaus community..." followed by, "So, do you play golf...are you a professional golfer?"

Now, that my friends, is a brand!




Branding and marketing is always easier when it includes lust!
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #203 on: March 14, 2009, 02:24:25 PM »
Forrest,

If those kind of people want to believe I am a professional golfer, I just let them. 

Yeah, I ususally talk about my green jacket, failing to note that it comes from Dillards, and that it is a Hart Shcaffner Marx JN special, as well.  I also talk about shooting 71 at Pine Valley, forgetting to mention I was rained out after 14.....Lastly, I tell them I am more into the TV side now, not mentioning its just watching, not commentating.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #204 on: March 16, 2009, 10:12:12 AM »
Tom Doak,

I think you should send Jack a note.  Let us know how that turns out please.

Lester

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #205 on: March 16, 2009, 03:24:04 PM »
Lester, I know how you feel.  It's bad enough losing a job to another architect, it's even worse when it's a Pro.  It's even worse when you already have the job, spent time working on it , then losing it.  Management Companies tend to do whatever is expedient for them.  The fact that the time you spent can not be gotten back but you have nothing to show for it, when word gets out that you were "removed" from the project, people can speculate as to the reason and will probably think the worse. 

Dad used tell how he had to "fire" a club he had worked with for decades when people would ask why so& so was now doing work there.  He had to explain that a greens chairman wanted to go in a direction he couldn't support.  In hindsight, they had to hire a 3rd architect  to completely redo  the club after the members weren't happy with #2's rendition of what the greens chairman wanted.  Wonder what they could have done with that $5-6 million if they would have listened to dad in the first place.

I have a AP course not 10 miles from my house that I did the routing for.  Then they sold the project to Toll Brothers who informed me that they had a 10 course package deal with Palmer and since they had already had a contract with them - see ya.  I watched as they moved ungodly amounts of dirt to create all kinds of mounds, extra deep bunkers, etc.  Some fairways appear 10' above the rear yards.  Arnie came out once or twice - the press all came, got an article or two in the local paper and that was that.  Don't think the houses sould any quicker than other developments any no one really talks about the course.  (In fact it just took me a minute just to remember the name myself). 

Like you, I was perhaps more disallusioned by having it taken away not because I was not doing my job, but rather due to a marketing decision.

Forrest, I wish I hada nickel for each time somebody asked "what do you do?" and when I answer their next ? is "who do you work for?"  Although it is funny to see the confusion on their face when I say "whoever hires me"
Coasting is a downhill process

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #206 on: March 17, 2009, 11:10:23 AM »
Tim,

I have fired four clubs in my 20 years.  Various reasons but all were jobs that I am glad I am not associated with now.

Lester

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #207 on: March 17, 2009, 01:33:41 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on January 27, 2009, 11:09:46 am
A lot of people who argue about "credit" and "principle" are really arguing about the money, but doing it in a roundabout way so that they don't have to admit they're arguing about money.  (Maybe that's why both are monetary terms.)
End

Read the quote above, thought about responding... now that Paul quoted it recently...
I disagree.
It's an intellectual short cut.

It has nothing to do with cash, in my instance, and all about a modicum of accuracy.

Right now, that modicum doesn't exist.
It's a whore house out there.

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